0.166ohms on a Mech Mod

[Man Called Jane]

Hello everyone...

This is not a post to induce rage or anything like that. I have been building for the last 4 months and wanted to verify what I have found now that I have a 18650 Mech Mod.

I have been building using the Drop rda and recently the ReCurve rda (which will be upgraded to a Drop SOLO when it drops for the public) as flavor banger and been working with the Pharaoh Mini RTA and recently the Revolver RTA (I like playing with the AFC a lot) for convince sake.

When building the Recurve, and RTAs I always stay above .3ohms with no problem, as they are single coil and the aliens I build are easy to ohm out in that range with 5 to 7 wraps, depending on the RTA. I am able to use them all on my mech with no issue and will my single Samsung R25s. They hit great, don't over heat, are all around good, at least to me. My issue is when playing around with my Drop. I have been using 6 wrap 3mm 26 gauge K1 single wire dual coils that have been ohm out at .25 for the pair, this works good, puts out a decent amount of vapor and flavor, but I want to upgrade.

I have put in dual spaced 6 wrap alien wire coil set that I made from some tri-core 26 gauge K1 with a 34 gauge SS317L on the outside (I'm still working on building my own, always re-wrap it to tight and loose the wave). When they were not spaced I was getting .123 ohms and was able to bring it up to .166 with spacing and burning on my VW mods. It hits great, and has amazing flavor.

What I was looking to see is if it would be okay to put on my Mech with a VTC5 I picked up yesterday?

I have been researching it and all of the numbers come out correctly in Steam engine and everything this says it would be okay as long as I stay above .145 ohms.

In all of the pictures below, I have verified that the number C rating, mah, and voltage are correct by factory and testing specification.

.25 on a VTC5

.175 on a VTC5

.145 on a VTC5

.166 on a VTC5 (my current build)

.166 on Samsung 25R (for the lack of a better phrase, Just ....ing Stupid!!!)

I am currently running this build on my G-Priv 2 at 80W (for safety) and it is just great, taste amazing and puts out great clouds on top of it all.

Sorry for no picture of the mod or RDA, I'm currently running my squonk at work today.
Pulse 80W with a ReCurve RDA Alien Coil at .33ohms. Squonk that Nasty Juice A$AP Grape.


I'm not posting this to stir people up, just wanted some verification on my findings. If I am missing something, I don't want put a bad name on the community and blow up.

 

[Shawn Hoefer]

0.166 Ω on a 30 Amp CDR cell is fine. I often run as low as 0.12 Ω, but not for long periods. My go-to build is 0.17 Ω dual Ni80 fused claptons (26x2/36 3mm 6 wrap)

ETA: Don't chain vape...

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk

 

[bwh79]

0.166 Ω on a 30 Amp CDR cell is fine.

But the VTC5 is rated 20A on Mooch's battery chart:

 

[Baditude]

volts = 4.2
resistance = 0.145 ohm
amp draw = 28.97 amps

volts = 4.2
resistance = 0.166 ohm
amp draw = 25.3 amps

The Sony VTC5 is a 20 amp continuous battery. It is NOT a 30 amp continuous battery. Battery Mooch has bench tested this battery on numerous occasions: Sony VTC5 2500mAh 18650 Retest Results...a great 20A 2600mAh battery

• "At 20A continuous the temperature rose to 82°C. This is at the upper limit of the average for a cell operating at its CDR.

• At 25A continuous the temperature rose to 96°C. This is significantly above the average for a cell operating at its CDR.

• At 30A continuous the temperature rose to 107°C. This is much, much too high a temperature to set this current level as the CDR and exceeds my 100°C safety limit.

• At the 35A continuous the temperature rose to 116°C, significantly exceeding my safety limit of 100°C.

• I am setting a CDR of 20A for this cell since at this current level its operating temperature is at the upper limit of the average for a cell operating at its CDR. While operating any cell near its rated maximum current level causes damage to the cell, I would expect decent cycle life from this cell at 20A continuous."

With this cell, increase the resistance to 0.22 ohm to stay within its continuous rating:

volts = 4.2
resistance = 0.22 ohm
amp draw = 19 amps
​

Explain it to the Dumb Noob: Ohm's Law Calculations for a Mechanical Mod

 

[stols001]

Well no I wouldn't possibly want to do that, and I'm glad you posted as sometimes the smallest piece of information missing can cause large problems. I'm also not going to froth at the mouth at you either (after all, it is YOUR mouth you will be putting this to and inhaling, not mine.)

Even if your calculations were correct (and they were I guess to the best you knew, although perhaps you did not know that batteries specs can be massaged, hidden, rewrapped or just out and out wrong) I probably wouldn't do that. I tend not to push "as low as I can go" with anything (gosh, even my bank account even these days) as margins of safety are useful things to have, your batteries will last longer, degrade less rapidly, etc. I guess you could look into a 207--series battery mech (make sure it's not a rewrap or you aren't reading inflated specs) if you want to vape that low.

ALSO keep in mind type of build is going to strain your batteries too as there's more metal to be heated up,; so a dual build does not JUST halve your resistance, it also DOUBLES the amount of wire in there and etc.. So resistance is IMPORTANT, but not the only thing that should be considered when it comes to building dual coil atomizers.

Man, I'm so glad to be a MTL vaper sometimes and yes I've vaped a (protected) mech and yes, I still didn't build below 0.75 and I was/ am perfectly happy with it.

Hope you find your happy medium and etc.

Anna

 

[Man Called Jane]

Thank you all for your input and information!

I think I'm going to hold off on throwing this on a mech, for now. (I'm looking to build my own mech with a twist)
I'll keep this to the G Priv and my Moon Box for now and maybe try the big aliens in the Drop SOLO for the mech, were they will hit .3 or so.

Once again, Thank you for all of the good info!

 

[zoiDman]

Hello everyone...

This is not a post to induce rage or anything like that. I have been building for the last 4 months and wanted to verify what I have found now that I have a 18650 Mech Mod.

I have been building using the Drop RDA and recently the ReCurve RDA (which will be upgraded to a Drop SOLO when it drops for the public) as flavor banger and been working with the Pharaoh Mini RTA and recently the Revolver RTA (I like playing with the AFC a lot) for convince sake.

When building the Recurve, and RTAs I always stay above .3ohms with no problem, as they are single coil and the aliens I build are easy to ohm out in that range with 5 to 7 wraps, depending on the RTA. I am able to use them all on my mech with no issue and will my single Samsung R25s. They hit great, don't over heat, are all around good, at least to me. My issue is when playing around with my Drop. I have been using 6 wrap 3mm 26 gauge K1 single wire dual coils that have been ohm out at .25 for the pair, this works good, puts out a decent amount of vapor and flavor, but I want to upgrade.

I have put in dual spaced 6 wrap alien wire coil set that I made from some tri-core 26 gauge K1 with a 34 gauge SS317L on the outside (I'm still working on building my own, always re-wrap it to tight and loose the wave). When they were not spaced I was getting .123 ohms and was able to bring it up to .166 with spacing and burning on my VW mods. It hits great, and has amazing flavor.

What I was looking to see is if it would be okay to put on my Mech with a VTC5 I picked up yesterday?

I have been researching it and all of the numbers come out correctly in Steam engine and everything this says it would be okay as long as I stay above .145 ohms.

In all of the pictures below, I have verified that the number C rating, mah, and voltage are correct by factory and testing specification.

View attachment 755179
.25 on a VTC5

View attachment 755185
.175 on a VTC5

View attachment 755181
.145 on a VTC5

View attachment 755183
.166 on a VTC5 (my current build)

View attachment 755187
.166 on Samsung 25R (for the lack of a better phrase, Just ....ing Stupid!!!)

I am currently running this build on my G-Priv 2 at 80W (for safety) and it is just great, taste amazing and puts out great clouds on top of it all.

Sorry for no picture of the mod or RDA, I'm currently running my squonk at work today.
Pulse 80W with a ReCurve RDA Alien Coil at .33ohms. Squonk that Nasty Juice A$AP Grape.
View attachment 755191 View attachment 755193

I'm not posting this to stir people up, just wanted some verification on my findings. If I am missing something, I don't want put a bad name on the community and blow up.

Something to Kinda consider with all this is Just How Good are these Resistance Measurements that you are using?

I mean, if someone tells me that the Resistance of their Coil(s) is 0.166 Ohms, the 1st things I would wonder is What are they using to Resolve Resistance to 3 Decimal Places?

And even if they have something that can Resolve Resistance to 3 Decimal Places, how Accurate is it at Any given Decimal Points?

If the Coils measures 0.166 Ohms when they are spaced, what happens if one or Both of them Contract and Make Contact? Do we just throw in another 5 or 6 Amps onto the Battery Draw?

Another thing... How Long should a New Battery's CDR be used? A New Genuine Battery that is.

Or maybe More Precisely, How Much does CDR change when a Battery is Used, Charged, Gets Hot, Gets Old, is Dropped, etc?

Last thing. If one wants to do the Low Ohm Limbo, and get down on the Theoretical Bleeding Edge of Battery Amp Draw using a Mech, what type of Venting does the Mech have if things do Go South?

Does the Mech have Venting near the Positive End of the Battery? Or is it one of those Mech where the Battery is a Slip Fit in a Tube where the Venting is supposed to pass threw the Bottom Fire Button? And Everything is Dependent on the battery Not swelling inside the Mech if Thermal Runaway occurs?

Just Me. But If I couldn't get the Hit I needed on a Mech building at a Higher Ohms to allow for the Error in my Ohm Measurement, and the a Possible Lower CDR do to Age/Use, and if my Mech Didn't have a whole lotta Venting on it, I'd just use a Regulated Mod.

 

[Man Called Jane]

zoiDman,

1. For resistance measurements I usually use a basic Coil master Resistance Meter, but due to the sensitivity of the Mech I have pulled out my Fluke ohmmeter. (I have one from when I was apprenticing to be an electricians and got a new one when I started using POE as a Network Engineer.)

2. The current VTC5 that I have was marked for production back in March of 2018. I have used the same meter to test voltage out put, maxing at 4.72, if I remember correctly, at full charge. I have used it for the first time last night on my Revolver Tank.

3. as for the spacing, I have heated the coils to beyond 300 degrees and this has tempered out the metal. It is now rigid and will not spring back.

4. Lastly, I am using an AR Mechanical Mod by TAC Mods. I have post a picture below. It has plenty of ventilation if things get out of hand.

Side note:
I have been messing with electricity for my entire life and working with my family, 5 master electricians, and am pretty sure on my measurements and how the resistance work. I am just new to the whole 18650 and 20700 game and wanted to verify what I have researched.

What I am trying to do with this post is confirm some findings, not start a fight. I have done my homework and actually know what I am doing on the electricity side of things. I am not familiar with batteries and what they can take. Limits can be pushed, power can be pulsed. If I learned anything about electricity is the 15+ years of working with my uncles and grandfather, is that it is alive and can break boundaries.

I don't want this thread to get out of hand, just wanted some advice from experienced people and friends.

And as always, thank you for your input.

 

[CagedSpam]

Our resident Battery expert -https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/blogs/mooch.256958/

His work on testing battery limits help kids sleep at night and is part of a healthy breakfast, I think.

IDK, but Mooch is the real deal and puts in tons of work so the community at large does not have to, and he seems pretty cool to boot. A few minutes with some of his charts helped me a bunch.

HTH

 

[zoiDman]

zoiDman,

1. For resistance measurements I usually use a basic Coil master Resistance Meter, but due to the sensitivity of the Mech I have pulled out my Fluke ohmmeter. (I have one from when I was apprenticing to be an electricians and got a new one when I started using POE as a Network Engineer.)

2. The current VTC5 that I have was marked for production back in March of 2018. I have used the same meter to test voltage out put, maxing at 4.72, if I remember correctly, at full charge. I have used it for the first time last night on my Revolver Tank.

3. as for the spacing, I have heated the coils to beyond 300 degrees and this has tempered out the metal. It is now rigid and will not spring back.

4. Lastly, I am using an AR Mechanical Mod by TAC Mods. I have post a picture below. It has plenty of ventilation if things get out of hand.
View attachment 755417 View attachment 755419 View attachment 755421

Side note:
I have been messing with electricity for my entire life and working with my family, 5 master electricians, and am pretty sure on my measurements and how the resistance work. I am just new to the whole 18650 and 20700 game and wanted to verify what I have researched.

What I am trying to do with this post is confirm some findings, not start a fight. I have done my homework and actually know what I am doing on the electricity side of things. I am not familiar with batteries and what they can take. Limits can be pushed, power can be pulsed. If I learned anything about electricity is the 15+ years of working with my uncles and grandfather, is that it is alive and can break boundaries.

I don't want this thread to get out of hand, just wanted some advice from experienced people and friends.

And as always, thank you for your input.

The thing you have to Remember is that this is a Public Forum. And for every person who has Fluke Meters and a house full of Master Electricians, there is about 10,000 who Don't. And Many People who come here have Little, or in some case, No Expertise when dealing with Batteries or Electricity.

My Post was as much for You as for Anyone else who reads it.

The type of Ohms talked about here are, IMO, just Too Low to be used on a Single Battery Mech.

Mathematically, things start to happen Very Fast when the Ohms in the Denominator get smaller proportional to the Squared Voltage in the Numerator of Ohms Law.

When there is Little or No "Safety Margin", and everything is Based on Everything being exactly what is expected, that is a Bad Recipe for a Mech User. Especially for a Novice Mech User who may be relying on a El-Cheapo Meter to tell Him/Her what they have Ohm-wise.

I think you are on the Right Road with what you said in Post #6 about running those Very Low Builds on a Regulated Mod. Hopefully anyone else who reads this would do the same.

 

[zoiDman]

...

2. The current VTC5 that I have was marked for production back in March of 2018. I have used the same meter to test voltage out put, maxing at 4.72, if I remember correctly, at full charge. I have used it for the first time last night on my Revolver Tank.

...

BTW - "4.72" is a typo. Right?

Or is that what your Meter says your VTC5 is at a Full Charge state?

 

[Shadgrind]

If you don't know ohms law don't vape. Seems like you have an idea, If in doubt check battery temp after a vaping session, warm OK if you can't hold it, I would reconsider your options, high ohms safer than low. Don't vape on a mech unless you have checked the ohms on a regulated mod, multimeter (decent one). Or something like a coilmaster tester!

 

[Shadgrind]

4.27 right?

BTW - "4.72" is a typo. Right?

Or is that what your Meter says your VTC5 is at a Full Charge state?

?

 

[stols001]

Look you said you came here for feedback. Master electrician or NOT, I'm not sure I'd want you rewiring MY house if your approach is to "push limits that can be pushed."

Also please read Mooch's blog if you are "not familiar" with batteries, GOD especially in a mech. I kind of don't get why a masterful electrician (and I'm not trying to be snide here, but that is sort of what you implied) you wouldn't be familiar with batteries at all, etc.

Again, not trying to be mean, but I doubt there is ANYONE here who is going to tell you that pulsing is a good idea, OR pushing your batteries to the max is a good idea (especially if you don't EVEN know their specs. Etc.

But, no one here is going to give you inaccurate information on safety just because you asked for it. It's called SAFETY for a reason, ,but again this is YOUR gear and face and hands and etc.

I have found the BEST electrical masters to be the ones MOST focused on safety building in fail safes, not over wiring things, not freaking....

My husband is an engineer and in our house back East, he replaced the fuse box. DESPITE having called the company three times to check, despite having tested MANY electrical outlets and etc., he did say one of the SCARIEST moments of his life was tapping into the raw power (fortunately off) and that when it was over, he sat down and shook.

I'm maybe not suggesting that you take that ENTIRE approach to your mech but oh boy, that is the way I approach my batteries and I am glad I do.

No one is forcing you to do ANYTHING however, but giving you information. I sincerely doubt that information is EVER going to be, "Yeah, don't worry about your batteries and sure, pulse your unknown battery on your 0.16 build.

Those are the kind of statements that get me going, "I know a lot about electricity so I'm going to be unsafe."

You have heard the saying about the doctor's children all getting sick ,the shoemakers children all having bad shoes?

I know less, I am QUITE sure, than you about electricity however I do know enough to know it's not safe, and justifying via your electrical knowledge is just that: justifications.

Do what you must but for the love of God get some decent batteries and don't pulse them. Just don't.

Anna

 

[Baditude]

1. For resistance measurements I usually use a basic Coil master Resistance Meter, but due to the sensitivity of the Mech I have pulled out my Fluke ohmmeter. (I have one from when I was apprenticing to be an electricians and got a new one when I started using POE as a Network Engineer.)

2. The current VTC5 that I have was marked for production back in March of 2018. I have used the same meter to test voltage out put, maxing at 4.72, if I remember correctly, at full charge.

The Fluke multimeters are almost universally recognized as one of the more precise and accurate meters. At those prices, they should be. However, to maintain that precision and accuracy, its my understanding that they should be re-calibrated on a routine basis. Do you do that with yours?

A fully charged battery should read 4.2 volts or slightly lower. If your battery is reading over that, either your battery, charger, or meter is way off.

 

[untar]

4.27

4.27V isn't "good" either, the charger should be set to 4.2V which means upon pulling the battery out it will be slightly below that, not over. If it's 4.27V it means the charger is set higher than that, not really what you want to do with our batteries especially for later use in a mech /!\
Overcharging is a pretty consistent way of damaging the battery internally (anode gets plated with metallic lithium and cathode becomes unstable, releasing gas).

If your battery is reading over that, either your battery, charger, or meter is way off.

Yep, he should definitely check what's not right.

 

[Man Called Jane]

Yes the 4.72 is a typo. It should have been 4.27.

I am not an electrician, I am a network engineer.

I am using a standard 0.5 charger that I purchased off of amazon. It has the ability to go up to 2amps, but I don't want to chance damaging my batteries.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B072WMZZ8Q/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I am running a real VTC5 and real Samsung 25Rs. I purchased them in store at Cloud Counters Vapor near my house.
Accessories - Batteries - Cloud Counter Vapor

I am running the .16 on a regulated mod.

I have been reading Mooch's Blog and have been looking for a dealer that has real VTC5A batteries, as that would give me a amperage of 25. The VTC4 will only give a amperage of 23.

This post has changed into exactly what I didn't want it to.

I apologize for anything that I have brought up and will no longer be posting to this thread. It was and is all good information. I will keep it all in mind when building and vaping.

Thank you everyone for your input.

 

[untar]

It should have been 4.27.

@Man Called Jane
Something is still off, the BC4 is supposed to cut off at 4.2 +- .05V which never would leave the battery at 4.27V when taken out of it. If that number really is correct the charger would have to go up to 4.3V which is a no go area for our LiIons.

Either the meter or the charger has a problem, please make sure you're staying as safe as possible.

I don't want to chance damaging my batteries.

Exactly

 

[suprtrkr]

That's closer than I would shave it. A lot closer. And what for? Call me an Olde Pharte if you like-- my lawn, get off it-- but all that fancy wire stuff has no real place on a mech outside of competitions. Being a good coil builder on a mech isn't about how low you can go, it's about getting the most out of the equipment. If you really want to vape at 100 watts on a mech, fine: get a two or three battery machine. On a one battery tube, stay above .4Ω, which is less than 50 watts. The reason is because voltage sag will do you in, and in a very big hurry. If you watch cloud competitors closely, you'll see they're reaching for a fresh battery every two or three hits. There's a reason for that. When you start vaping in that high a regimen on a single cell, cell voltage drops off like a cliff and you're down 5 or 6 watts off your peak after the first hit, and twenty or more after 4 or 5. You can, in other words, get 100 watts out of it for one hit on a fresh charged battery, if you don't mind slicing your safety margin thinner than bread in a soup kitchen, but no more. Two hits later you're under 90 and headed downhill.

Instead, try building your coils to keep a narrow margin of wattage range between full and half charge-- call it 5-7 watts of variance between 3.7-4.2V-- and then vary your wire thickness to get the wire surface temp you want for the heat of the vape (thinner is hotter). If you can't get the vape you want like that, it means a one-battery tube is not the machine you need.

 

[gpjoe]

The Fluke multimeter is almost universally recognized as one of the more precise and accurate meters. At those prices, they should be. However, to maintain that precision and accuracy, its my understanding that they should be re-calibrated on a routine basis. Do you do that with yours?

A fully charged battery should read 4.2 volts. If your battery is reading over that, either your battery, charger, or meter is way off.

And the Fluke meters capable of .001 ohm resolution are 900 bucks. A regular $100 Fluke, while an excellent meter for general electronics use, is not capable of the same resolution as even a $30 Coilmaster Tab.