Tropical Bob - you said that if you esmoke you would test positive because of the nicotine, but does that apply to the zero nicotine juices as well?
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Zero nic juices shouldn't show up in the test as the chemical they are testing for, cotinine, is a byproduct of your body's metabolism of nicotine. Zero nicotine means zero cotinine. Some vegetables have nicotine in them, but not in high enough doses to show up on the test. I was learning a lot reading about nicotine on wikipedia - it is an excellent source of information that isn't tainted by commercial interests or political agendas.
trop bob, how about if you chew nicorette or use the patch???? that would put nicotine in your system...I think it is a bit hard to distinguish who is a non smoker and who isn't cuz of the cig replacements out there. All someone would have to say is, unless someone has seen me smoke a cig on business property...I am using nicorette or the patch, so that I can comply with the program and not burn tobacco. Maybe there are level differences in the differnet ways of ingestion?
People are no longer Employees, they are property.
I have been saying for years now, If i ever go to jail, it is going to be because of a smoking ban. Very little makes me madder then the people trying to control us.
You can Bank on the "Fat" police next.
IF (i hope not) we get a universal health care plan, you sure will answer questions, then you will be prioritized depending on what they deem your need is. "Your a smoker, you can wait 6 months for that surgery" "your a smoker, your not worth the expence"
Welcome to the USSA
I have been saying for years now, If i ever go to jail, it is going to be because of a smoking ban. Very little makes me madder then the people trying to control us.
You can Bank on the "Fat" police next.
IF (i hope not) we get a universal health care plan, you sure will answer questions, then you will be prioritized depending on what they deem your need is. "Your a smoker, you can wait 6 months for that surgery" "your a smoker, your not worth the expence"
Welcome to the USSA
I'm not sure NRT produces cotinine, Kimmie. Good question. But ... there is not one NRT product that is meant for long-term use, however, so an employer might give someone claiming to be using NRT a few months before retesting would have to show an absence of cotinine.
Here's another interesting thought: What if you live with a smoker and inhale quantities of second-hand smoke? Will that produce a positive cotinine test result?
It's a new world. Stay tuned for the courts to answer these and other burning questions.
Here's another interesting thought: What if you live with a smoker and inhale quantities of second-hand smoke? Will that produce a positive cotinine test result?
It's a new world. Stay tuned for the courts to answer these and other burning questions.
Oh yeh, zero-nic carts certainly wouldn't produce cotinine.
But that's not why most people here e-smoke. Most forum posters are nic addicts seeking an enjoyable, healthier way of getting our drug. That's me! Everything I do, however, produces cotinine: e-smoke, snus, Stonewall dissolvables, pipe after supper ... I'd be doomed to no-nic hell.
But that's not why most people here e-smoke. Most forum posters are nic addicts seeking an enjoyable, healthier way of getting our drug. That's me! Everything I do, however, produces cotinine: e-smoke, snus, Stonewall dissolvables, pipe after supper ... I'd be doomed to no-nic hell.
OK, this thread is REALLY scaring me.... I mean, nicotine is legal (I am not specifically speaking of our e-liquids), and cigarettes are legal. If an employer wants to ban smoking on the workplace, I guess it's their prerogative (although I don't like it). I have more troubles with them banning smokeless tobacco. But, really, how can they ban anyone from a legal activity that does not impair any function and is pursued on own's time? I cannot believe that ACLUs have not been involved in this.... This seems WAY above anything any entity could do to their workers. Besides, as long as only tobacco/nicotine users are targeted, this is discrimination, too, isn't it? Is this really the US???! (WHO does not newly hire smokers, and does not allow promotion of smokers that were hired when this policy was enforced. Hoowever, WHO does not fall under any jurisdiction but their own).
I am starting to feel lucky that I am an Italian citizen.... As a scientist, it's very frustrating to be there (which is why I am here), but I doubt that employers will go this far.....
By the way, MagusSteele, even if this is off-topic: Italy has universal health care and, while it has some problems, I am quite impressed with it. Any resident of Italy is immediately exempted from virtually all out-of-pocket expenses in case of diseases like cancer, diabetes, HIV, etc. Frankly, I do not really understand what many Americans have against universal health care.... I find the system here really inconvenient, complicated, and expensive (and I have health insurance from my work, for now....). In the US, an enormous amounf of money is spent to decide whether a given person should be entitled to this therapy/drug/procedure. In Europe, there are approved procedures, and everyone with an applicable condition is automatically eligible. This cuts costs, and allows for some equity.
I am starting to feel lucky that I am an Italian citizen.... As a scientist, it's very frustrating to be there (which is why I am here), but I doubt that employers will go this far.....
By the way, MagusSteele, even if this is off-topic: Italy has universal health care and, while it has some problems, I am quite impressed with it. Any resident of Italy is immediately exempted from virtually all out-of-pocket expenses in case of diseases like cancer, diabetes, HIV, etc. Frankly, I do not really understand what many Americans have against universal health care.... I find the system here really inconvenient, complicated, and expensive (and I have health insurance from my work, for now....). In the US, an enormous amounf of money is spent to decide whether a given person should be entitled to this therapy/drug/procedure. In Europe, there are approved procedures, and everyone with an applicable condition is automatically eligible. This cuts costs, and allows for some equity.
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Bluewolf: if you end up taking a new job in a different state, look for states that have "smoker protection laws", and check out what law that is. About 30 states have some such law and, in many cases, employer cannot regulate behaviors outside the workplace. The American Lung Association is upset about these laws (of course), but it lists the states here:
American Lung Association
Also, there is a searchable databalse (SLATI) where you can check what protections exist. In NC, for example, one can require such behaviors from employees if this is in line with the objective of the workplace (or something like that). So, if you work in a hospital, it may be difficult for you to geta job where your rights are not trampled on. But you can still try.....
American Lung Association
Also, there is a searchable databalse (SLATI) where you can check what protections exist. In NC, for example, one can require such behaviors from employees if this is in line with the objective of the workplace (or something like that). So, if you work in a hospital, it may be difficult for you to geta job where your rights are not trampled on. But you can still try.....
The Public Health care issue could be a 600 page thread on to it self.
You may not be used to the same political crap as we are.
It can be Banned, or taxed, or anything they feel like for several reasons,
"Its For the Children" Its for your Health, Its for the health of others, its to reduce costs,
Its for the people with Asthma.
Basicly its because they can.
When you factor in Dumb people, and ignorance, you can do anything.
Since it has been deemed a health risk, you as a smoker no long have rights.
They have to save you from your self.
Smokeing kills millions, and second hand smoke kills the other half of the public. IF you believe their crap. According to some things ive seen, the Human population should have went extinct a few hundred years ago because of smokeing, if you go by their numbers.
Being a minority, it is hard to fight, and haveing the health connection, the courts wont help.
This is why I am praying they leave E-cigs alone.
ViVa La Revolution
This country has been going off the deep end since ive been alive.
You may not be used to the same political crap as we are.
It can be Banned, or taxed, or anything they feel like for several reasons,
"Its For the Children" Its for your Health, Its for the health of others, its to reduce costs,
Its for the people with Asthma.
Basicly its because they can.
When you factor in Dumb people, and ignorance, you can do anything.
Since it has been deemed a health risk, you as a smoker no long have rights.
They have to save you from your self.
Smokeing kills millions, and second hand smoke kills the other half of the public. IF you believe their crap. According to some things ive seen, the Human population should have went extinct a few hundred years ago because of smokeing, if you go by their numbers.
Being a minority, it is hard to fight, and haveing the health connection, the courts wont help.
This is why I am praying they leave E-cigs alone.
ViVa La Revolution
This country has been going off the deep end since ive been alive.
Oh, don't get me wrong.... Italy has A LOT of problems (health care included), and there are smoking bans in virtually all indoor public places. But I don't think that employers could go as far as forbid smoking outside work on your own time, even if Europe is getting to be more and more like the US RE smoking attitudes. I have heard that some UK workplace fired a new employee as soon as they discovered that she was a smoker (although she was not smoking at work), and apparently got away with it. I think it's in part the smokers' fault. They have basically convinced us that we are doing something really wrong, so we just take it quietly.... It was brilliant to get "passive smoking" to be the main issue. That way, even people who would live and let live felt that they were being threatened.... And the science on passive smoking is pretty weak, as far as I can tell. I am an epidemiologist, and I read some of the evidence. I was not really impressed (except in the case of young children, where there is some more evidence).
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My employer has already banned tobacco use in some other countries and as of January first, tobacco use will be banned on any property they own or lease in the US (including parking lots). Tobacco use outside of work has not yet been banned, but they do charge tobacco-users more for health and life insurance.
They offered cessasion programs, but I reluctantly admit that I really enjoy getting up from my desk twice a day and going outside to relax and smoke for a bit. I haven't had the nerve to approach anyone at work about e-smoking, asI am certain they would attempt to ban it as well.
A number of people have spoken out against the tobacco ban, but they are holding their ground. Even non-smokers are upset at the loss of rights. Many people fear what is next... ban on fast food or sweets? higher insurance premiums for employess who are overweight or have risky hobbies?
They offered cessasion programs, but I reluctantly admit that I really enjoy getting up from my desk twice a day and going outside to relax and smoke for a bit. I haven't had the nerve to approach anyone at work about e-smoking, asI am certain they would attempt to ban it as well.
A number of people have spoken out against the tobacco ban, but they are holding their ground. Even non-smokers are upset at the loss of rights. Many people fear what is next... ban on fast food or sweets? higher insurance premiums for employess who are overweight or have risky hobbies?
They'll likely enforce the same ban at my workplace on January 1st, although the date has not been officially announced yet, hence my approach to the e-cigarette. I never dreamed that it would get me down so far in my cigarette consumption - I only planned to start "training" at work for the hard times, but I am now smoking 3 cigarettes a day-from 22- with no trouble (I never smoke before 4 PM). I just take my e-cig to work, and asked no one. Nor will I, I think.... I also noticed that my nicotine cravings have substantially declined, even though I do vape nic (low or medium). Most of my colleagues are also upset at the ban (none of them a smoker), and my workplace also offers NRT - but I am not going to take it. I sure hope they won't attempt to ban smoking outside work, because then I'd have to quit (my job). Even if I managed to go nic-free, which I do not plan to, I could not possibly work at a place where they trample on my personal rights in such manner. This is really the new fascism....
I feel so sorry for any one that would quietly sit back and let this happen. When I lived in Denver CO and they enforced the no smoking bans inside i was hot
. My hubby didn't smoke at the time, I did. We both agreed, if an establishment owner didn't want smoking in their facility that was fine, but to say its not up to you or them was absurd. Now we have someone telling you can't smoke on your own time. FFS, I feel violated and this does not affect me directly, YET. I would not quit smoking/esmoking for any job. I know the economy is dead and good luck finding a job that pays as well, I'll be stopping water before I give up my rights.
"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
. My hubby didn't smoke at the time, I did. We both agreed, if an establishment owner didn't want smoking in their facility that was fine, but to say its not up to you or them was absurd. Now we have someone telling you can't smoke on your own time. FFS, I feel violated and this does not affect me directly, YET. I would not quit smoking/esmoking for any job. I know the economy is dead and good luck finding a job that pays as well, I'll be stopping water before I give up my rights."People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
ok, first let me say I am loving this thread. Expressive posts, intelligent conversation, and plenty of respect for one another.
Rikkus, I love the Ben Frankline quote. I will have to write that down somewhere and ponder it some more.
Everything in me cries out to defend myself against such an agrievous abuse of authority and political power. BUT, I don't know how to fight back. I feel completely powerless in our political climate to fight against these injustices. I would quit my job, but I and my family feel the effects of that decision, not the company for whom I work. If I quit my job every time I feel my rights have been trampled upon (and I have in the past, for many years), I am the one who is seen as being flighty and unable to commit to a job - this is the first full time job I have stayed at for more than a year and I am 35.
I don't have any experts on my side to help me fight the laws.
The only thing I do have is the knowledge that I have learned from history - prohibition does not work. Addicts will do whatever is necessary to satisfy their addiction. We need some experts to back us esmokers with facts and research. We need spokespeople to get these facts and research to the people making these decisions - attorneys, lobbyists, commercial interests. We need political power - but how do we get that?
Rikkus, I just noticed your location
that is foggin' hilarious! Thanks for the giggle, I needed that.
Rikkus, I love the Ben Frankline quote. I will have to write that down somewhere and ponder it some more.
Everything in me cries out to defend myself against such an agrievous abuse of authority and political power. BUT, I don't know how to fight back. I feel completely powerless in our political climate to fight against these injustices. I would quit my job, but I and my family feel the effects of that decision, not the company for whom I work. If I quit my job every time I feel my rights have been trampled upon (and I have in the past, for many years), I am the one who is seen as being flighty and unable to commit to a job - this is the first full time job I have stayed at for more than a year and I am 35.
I don't have any experts on my side to help me fight the laws.
The only thing I do have is the knowledge that I have learned from history - prohibition does not work. Addicts will do whatever is necessary to satisfy their addiction. We need some experts to back us esmokers with facts and research. We need spokespeople to get these facts and research to the people making these decisions - attorneys, lobbyists, commercial interests. We need political power - but how do we get that?
Rikkus, I just noticed your location
that is foggin' hilarious! Thanks for the giggle, I needed that.
Reminds me of recent so-called anti-terrorism legislation in the UK. It has so far been used by local councils to place people under surveillance over such terrorist issues as school catchment areas. Hundreds of years of freedom are quietly being eroded. Not good.
work for the military hospitals. everyone smokes. i wouldnt work in a civilian hospital if it were the last place on earth-been an RN for 18 years now.
and what the hayull is an "anti"????
and what the hayull is an "anti"????
This is my first post - have been lurking for about a month now. I am still waiting for my first device to arrive. I just wanted to chime in on this post.
I work in a hospital where the policy has been a tobacco free work day for two years now. I am not permitted to smoke or chew tobacco at any time during my shift, not even on my breaks. The consequences for bucking this policy escalate more sharply than any other policy on the books. The first infraction results in a warning - only if it is outdoors. The next one is a write-up. The third is automatic termination. There is no forgiveness - even if it is twenty years between infractions. I don't even have to be caught in the act. All that is required is an accusation from ANYONE. That means if any one of the 500 or so employees I come into contact with daily feel I slighted them, they only have to accuse me to get me in very serious hot water. They don't even have to have proof 8-o. I have already been falsely accused once.
The latest policy is that as of October 1 of this year, all new hires will be screened for continine and anyone with a positive continine test will not be hired. That means if you are on the patch, the lozenge, or the gum you can't work there. All nicotine becomes continine in your body.
For the past two years I have been using nicotine gum for 8-1/2 hours a day. I also spend my lunch walking two blocks, through a parking deck, taking the stairs down to the bottom, and stepping out under a bridge to smoke half a cigarette
The antis at this hospital judge EVERYTHING. They have felt the need to try and enlist my mother's help in admonishing me about my coffee drinking 8-owhen I have tried to have breakfast in the cafeteria with her.
Where does this end? When do we stand up to these busybodies and tell them to focus on the crap they are putting into their own bodies and keep their nose out of our business? I am livid - but I can't risk alienating anyone as they could accuse me again.
I don't mean to incite a riot even though the way I feel is riotous. I really meant to share my story to illustrate for you all just how crazy they have gotten about trying to control my body. It has nothing to do with second hand smoke or smell since it now involves tobacco free alternatives. This is strictly about public relations and CONTROL.
An anti is one of those people who is against pretty much everything. They are constantly judging everyone else's vices and behavior - almost never their own. They like to carry an air of superiority, draw attention to other people's "shortcomings", tell everyone around them how to live their life - what to eat, what to drink, what to smoke, which words they are not allowed to say, which political views to espouse, etc.
They are anti-tobacco, anti-alcohol, anti-abortion, anti-you supply the word. They love to tell me I am going to hell for one thing or another
or tell me I will get cancer from eating microwaved food or smoking
or drinking coffee. This is a stereotype
, don't get me wrong here. There are things I stand against too. I just don't feel it is my place to tell others what is right for them. I do tell my closest friends what I really feel about them and their behaviors - I point out patterns I see as inhibiting their dreams and goals - but I leave it at that and I do it privately, not in public for everyone to hear and chime in on.Not all antis are anti everything. Some are anti-tobacco, but prochoice for example. They are just way too vocal about the things they are against and way too eager to eradicate the world of anyone who isn't just like them.
I, for one, am pro-emoticon
. I put them in most of my posts, and I appreciate seeing them the posts of others, but I don't try to create, fund, or force legislation stating that emoticons are mandatory on any post of 100 characters or more.Not all antis are anti everything. Some are anti-tobacco, but prochoice for example. They are just way too vocal about the things they are against and way too eager to eradicate the world of anyone who isn't just like them.
Smoker-bashing is an equal opportunity activity, and perhaps the "liberals" are even worse than the conservatives (I consider myself a liberal, although a smoking one). In fact, smokers are pretty mch the only category left around (perhaps even more than overweight people) that it is "okay" to really be mean to. Many of those who spew venom on smokers, would have more pity on other addicts, and defnitely more respect toward just about any other "group". When I was young in Italy, ALL lefties smoked non-stop, and not only tobacco.... Now that is definitely not the case. In part, I am afraid it has to do with the notion of "protecting" people from anything, and in part it is a moral judgment. Being "healthy" is the new fashion, and if one does something clearly unhealthy, than one deserves spite. Not to mention if we look like we are having fun with it, too, which may be why other addictions get more understanding, since there are more problems connected with them (e.g alcohol).
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