A Formulation Question

[Trent Erikson]

Hello there,

I might be missing an obvious answer here, but I'm new to mixing and could use some help with the math with this, as I'm sure someone has run into this issue before.

I use a premixed 50/50 base with freebase nicotine included in the mix, and almost all the flavors I add have a PG base. I use a calculator within an Android app called "vape tool" (it's pretty much the same as you get with any of the web-based calculators). When I put in my recipe, it starts with a number for my base, then subtracts or adds some PG or VG to/from the base. Since I cannot remove PG/VG individually, what should the math look like?

I've been at least subtracting the PG part out (sometimes both) before adding anything. My thought here is the recipe is based on a certain base amount, and I want to stay true to that amount so the end result is true to what it should taste like. There is no way for the calculator to compensate for a base already set at a 50/50 ratio on any of the calculators I've found. I don't want the result to be too thin liquid or have it not taste right. I typically use an Xros 3 or Calliburn X now with a .08 coil (or something close) MTL.

I know I can either not remove any of the PG/VG base to begin with or add some straight VG at the end to make up for the amount of PG flavoring I put in, but wouldn't that dilute and change the final flavor I'm going for? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thank you.

 

[smacuser]

Have you looked at E Liquid Recipes? What is your recipe?

 

[ShamrockPat]

..... but wouldn't that dilute and change the final flavor I'm going for?

Yes. Every single drop of concentrate increases your PG %, and dilutes your nic. If you add more VG to get it back to 50/50 that drops your nic even more. You might be OK with that.

 

[Izan]

Hola,
As per above; please post your recipe.
What is your target PG/VG ratio and nicotine content?
What are the results of your current efforts? PG/VG -Nicotine?

IMO, flavors taste "right" when they taste good to you. (Read twice)

Follow the recipe as best as you can, it is a starting point.
No recipe has ever been perfect unless I was using a one-shot and even then, a few %'s up or down might be needed based on equipment.
The pods will handle up to about 65%PG most of the year, summers may see more leaking of the thinner juice.

HTH
I

 

[Trent Erikson]

I'm using a 50/50 base with 38mg of nic. Ideally, I'd like to shoot for 18 mg or more when it's done, so I'm guessing I'm going to need to go up with my base nicotine to comfortably achieve this or possible switch to nic salts? I've tried some premade juice with salts but it had a horrible aftertaste compared to the freebase nic version and it scared me off salts. It has been suggested maybe I just got a bad bottle since it shouldn't taste any different, but it was the same weird aftertaste with both the bottles I purchased.

Here's an example, my flavorings are between 10 and 22% of the total I'm making with 38mg nic base occupying the rest, obviously. Where do I end up on the final total nic when 22% of it is flavoring? 22% of 38mg is 8.36, subtract that from 38 and I'm at 29.64mg?

 

[Trent Erikson]

Here's an example on one I've done. The formatting may be off, but it'll give you an idea.

Base 100.0% 5.0ml 5.723[g]
Glycol(PG) -22.7% -1.1ml -1.181[g]
Menthol Crystals 10.0% 0.5ml 0.520[g]
Hourhound 3.0% 0.2ml 0.156[g]
Peppermint 0.6% 0.0ml 0.031[g]
Sweetener 0.7% 0.0ml 0.036[g]
Koolada 4.0% 0.2ml 0.208[g]
Vanillin 4.0% 0.2ml 0.208[g]
Eucalyptus 0.0% 0.0ml 0.001[g]
Wintergreen 0.2% 0.0ml 0.010[g]
Peppermint 0.2% 0.0ml 0.010[g]
Total 100.0% 5.0ml 5.723[g]

 

[Trent Erikson]

Have you looked at E Liquid Recipes? What is your recipe?

That's what I use most often as a starting point. I'll post an actual recipe to show what I'm running into.

 

[Izan]

Here's an example on one I've done. The formatting may be off, but it'll give you an idea.

Base 100.0% 5.0ml 5.723[g]
Glycol(PG) -22.7% -1.1ml -1.181[g]
Menthol Crystals 10.0% 0.5ml 0.520[g]
Hourhound 3.0% 0.2ml 0.156[g]
Peppermint 0.6% 0.0ml 0.031[g]
Sweetener 0.7% 0.0ml 0.036[g]
Koolada 4.0% 0.2ml 0.208[g]
Vanillin 4.0% 0.2ml 0.208[g]
Eucalyptus 0.0% 0.0ml 0.001[g]
Wintergreen 0.2% 0.0ml 0.010[g]
Peppermint 0.2% 0.0ml 0.010[g]
Total 100.0% 5.0ml 5.723[g]

WOW...

Crawl, walk, run.

You are going to need to buy some 100% VG, maybe some PG or a premix at 80% VG with zero nicotine.

Your "base" is your nicotine ingredient, NOT the foundation of the mix.

Perhaps a one or two flavor mix might be easier as a novice.

How many drops per ml?

Which weight values are you using for your ingredients?


Cheers
I

 

[zoiDman]

I'm using a 50/50 base with 38mg of nic. Ideally, I'd like to shoot for 18 mg or more when it's done, so I'm guessing I'm going to need to go up with my base nicotine to comfortably achieve this or possible switch to nic salts? I've tried some premade juice with salts but it had a horrible aftertaste compared to the freebase nic version and it scared me off salts. It has been suggested maybe I just got a bad bottle since it shouldn't taste any different, but it was the same weird aftertaste with both the bottles I purchased.

Here's an example, my flavorings are between 10 and 22% of the total I'm making with 38mg nic base occupying the rest, obviously. Where do I end up on the final total nic when 22% of it is flavoring? 22% of 38mg is 8.36, subtract that from 38 and I'm at 29.64mg?

Think of DIY this way... That you are solving Two Separate but related Math Problems.

The First is to Find How To Make a Mixture that has your Desired Nicotine Strength (mg/ml).
The Second is to make such a Mixture to Match a chosen PG to VG ratio.

It is Much Easier to think about things if you solve these Two Math Problems in this Order. Nicotine mg/ml First. Then PG to VG Ratio.

If someone has 38mg/ml Unflavored Nicotine Base and they want to make a Final Mix of 18mg, then they are going to mix a Tad More than 1 Part Nicotine Base to 1 Part Non-Nicotine. A 1 to 1 Mix would cut your Nicotine Base's Strength in Half. Which would be 19mg/ml. To make 18mg/ml, you are going to need a Tad More of something to Dilute it. You are going to need 47% Nicotine Base and 53% Non-Nicotine.

At this point you should Consider that going for a Final Mix Strength of 18mg/ml. Chances are you would Never Tase the difference. But if you went for a Final Mix Strength of 19mg/ml, it would make the Math and the Measuring Much Simpler with the 38mg/ml Nicotine base that you have.

Anywho. Now you know the Solution to the 1st Part of your Mixing Problem. How to make a Final Mix that has a Nicotine Strength of 18mg/ml. So if I was making 100ml of Finished e-Liquid, I would need 47ml of my 38mg/ml Nicotine Base mixed with 53ml of something that contains No Nicotine.

Once again, choosing 100ml as my Final Mix Size made the Math something I could do in my head. Because the Percentages just became ml's.

So now the Question is what should this 53ml that you are going to Mix with your Nicotine Base be made up of ? I have No Clue. LOL. Because I Don't Know what PG to VG Ratio you want the Final Mixture to be?

But I do know one thing... And that is that whatever flavoring you want to use, it will be a Part of that 53ml. Because the Flavoring is Non-Nicotine. And if you said you typically use say 15% Flavoring, then you Final Mix would have 15ml of Flavoring (15% of 100ml).

So the Recipe to make 100ml of 18mg/ml Flavored e-Liquid so far is

47ml of 38mg/ml + 15ml of Flavoring + 38ml's of PG or VG or PG/VG or PG/VG/Water or...

Knowing what the Final 38ml's of this Mix is going to depend of what PG to VG Ration you want. But you can choose Any Ratio that is between 76.5% PG to 23.5% VG and 38.5% PG to 61.5 VG. That is, assuming that your Flavoring is PG Based.

---

TL/TD...

Solve for your Final mg/ml 1st.
Don't Trust My Math. Have someone Double Check it. I did all this on a Single Cup of Coffee sitting in My Bathrobe. LOL

 

[ShamrockPat]

See all those manual gyrations that zoiDman graciously explained? They would all disappear with some changes for your next purchase.
First buy your nic, vg, pg as seperates.

Buy the highest nic level you can, either in pg or vg. You can simulate a 22%mix + nic at E Liquid Recipes, with vg nic and pg nic to help you decide on that base. Not only will the calculators work properly, but the nic will work out cheaper in the long run.

 

[Trent Erikson]

WOW...

Crawl, walk, run.

You are going to need to buy some 100% VG, maybe some PG or a premix at 80% VG with zero nicotine.

Your "base" is your nicotine ingredient, NOT the foundation of the mix.

Perhaps a one or two flavor mix might be easier as a novice.

How many drops per ml?

Which weight values are you using for your ingredients?


Cheers
I

I'm using ml

See all those manual gyrations that zoiDman graciously explained? They would all disappear with some changes for your next purchase.
First buy your nic, vg, pg as seperates.

Buy the highest nic level you can, either in pg or vg. You can simulate a 22%mix + nic at E Liquid Recipes, with vg nic and pg nic to help you decide on that base. Not only will the calculators work properly, but the nic will work out cheaper in the long run.

I tried buying it all separate but every place I tried wouldn't ship nicotine to Illinois. I finally found one place, but they only do the nic in PG or VG or a combo. I can't get it separate shipped to me. I was lucky to find a place to do it at all .

 

[Izan]

I'm using ml

I tried buying it all separate but every place I tried wouldn't ship nicotine to Illinois. I finally found one place, but they only do the nic in PG or VG or a combo. I can't get it separate shipped to me. I was lucky to find a place to do it at all .

In your place, I would buy my nicotine in a PG base at 100mg/ml or greater.
I will defer to the locals, but I think amazon . com might have some VG that will ship to your location.

Do you have a graduated cylinder for mixing?
How are you measuring your ingredients?


Protip: Mix test/trial/experimental recipes WITHOUT nicotine.

HTH
I

 

[Trent Erikson]

I'm

In your place, I would buy my nicotine in a PG base at 100mg/ml or greater.
I will defer to the locals, but I think amazon . com might have some VG that will ship to your location.

Do you have a graduated cylinder for mixing?
How are you measuring your ingredients?


Protip: Mix test/trial/experimental recipes WITHOUT nicotine.

HTH
I

I'm mixing by weight. That recipe actually turned out quite good. I can easily get PG and VG base, it's the nicotine where I run into issues.

 

[Trent Erikson]

Think of DIY this way... That you are solving Two Separate but related Math Problems.

The First is to Find How To Make a Mixture that has your Desired Nicotine Strength (mg/ml).
The Second is to make such a Mixture to Match a chosen PG to VG ratio.

It is Much Easier to think about things if you solve these Two Math Problems in this Order. Nicotine mg/ml First. Then PG to VG Ratio.

If someone has 38mg/ml Unflavored Nicotine Base and they want to make a Final Mix of 18mg, then they are going to mix a Tad More than 1 Part Nicotine Base to 1 Part Non-Nicotine. A 1 to 1 Mix would cut your Nicotine Base's Strength in Half. Which would be 19mg/ml. To make 18mg/ml, you are going to need a Tad More of something to Dilute it. You are going to need 47% Nicotine Base and 53% Non-Nicotine.

At this point you should Consider that going for a Final Mix Strength of 18mg/ml. Chances are you would Never Tase the difference. But if you went for a Final Mix Strength of 19mg/ml, it would make the Math and the Measuring Much Simpler with the 38mg/ml Nicotine base that you have.

Anywho. Now you know the Solution to the 1st Part of your Mixing Problem. How to make a Final Mix that has a Nicotine Strength of 18mg/ml. So if I was making 100ml of Finished e-Liquid, I would need 47ml of my 38mg/ml Nicotine Base mixed with 53ml of something that contains No Nicotine.

Once again, choosing 100ml as my Final Mix Size made the Math something I could do in my head. Because the Percentages just became ml's.

So now the Question is what should this 53ml that you are going to Mix with your Nicotine Base be made up of ? I have No Clue. LOL. Because I Don't Know what PG to VG Ratio you want the Final Mixture to be?

But I do know one thing... And that is that whatever flavoring you want to use, it will be a Part of that 53ml. Because the Flavoring is Non-Nicotine. And if you said you typically use say 15% Flavoring, then you Final Mix would have 15ml of Flavoring (15% of 100ml).

So the Recipe to make 100ml of 18mg/ml Flavored e-Liquid so far is

47ml of 38mg/ml + 15ml of Flavoring + 38ml's of PG or VG or PG/VG or PG/VG/Water or...

Knowing what the Final 38ml's of this Mix is going to depend of what PG to VG Ration you want. But you can choose Any Ratio that is between 76.5% PG to 23.5% VG and 38.5% PG to 61.5 VG. That is, assuming that your Flavoring is PG Based.

---

TL/TD...

Solve for your Final mg/ml 1st.
Don't Trust My Math. Have someone Double Check it. I did all this on a Single Cup of Coffee sitting in My Bathrobe. LOL

I see, thank you for your response. I appreciate it, and I definitely understand much more about the math behind the process. Let's try some more bathrobe advice lol...

So let's say, for the sake of argument, I take my 50/50 base with 38mg of nic, and 30+mg of nic as my final recipe is ok with me (the exact nic number doesn't matter that much since it could be no higher than 38mg), then I add 15% vg flavoring. Just off the top of my head, would the final result be something that roughly has a nic level in the neighborhood of 25-30mg with a pg/vg level somewhere around 60/40-70/30? The final numbers don't have to be dead on, as I can handle the nic level and 60/40 or 70/30 should still vape just fine.

I know that's not how it's supposed to be done, but I'm checking my numbers with this scenerio in order to use what I have because I am experimenting with small batches until I get something close to the juice I'm looking to mimick. I will try to order my PG, VG and nicotine separately going forward.

Thanks again

 

[somdcomputerguy]

Does your computer run Windows? If you can, try this program which is a local (not online) e-juice calculator. eJuice Me Up

 

[ShowMeTwice]

I see, thank you for your response. I appreciate it, and I definitely understand much more about the math behind the process. Let's try some more bathrobe advice lol...

So let's say, for the sake of argument, I take my 50/50 base with 38mg of nic, and 30+mg of nic as my final recipe is ok with me (the exact nic number doesn't matter that much since it could be no higher than 38mg), then I add 15% vg flavoring. Just off the top of my head, would the final result be something that roughly has a nic level in the neighborhood of 25-30mg with a pg/vg level somewhere around 60/40-70/30? The final numbers don't have to be dead on, as I can handle the nic level and 60/40 or 70/30 should still vape just fine.

I know that's not how it's supposed to be done, but I'm checking my numbers with this scenerio in order to use what I have because I am experimenting with small batches until I get something close to the juice I'm looking to mimick. I will try to order my PG, VG and nicotine separately going forward.

Thanks again

You are making this much (MUCH) harder than it needs to be. Don't get lost in the math. Mixing is not Rocket Science.

Very Simple Solution:

Go to e-liqiud -recipes . com (remove the spaces / ECF does not allow linking to ELR). Click on "Create Recipe". Add YOUR desired recipe and ELR shows you what you need to do.

Example: I entered 30ml to make, 30mg nic, 50/50, 100mg nic in PG and then 15% of one flavor.

ELR then shows you exactly how to mix the recipe by weight.

If you mix that ^^^^^^ recipe By Weight using a scale - you WILL end up with 30mls, 30mg nic in a 50/50 base with 15% of one flavor.

ELR it does ALL the math for you. Or as @somdcomputerguy just mentioned download eJuice Me Up (it does the exact same thing as ELR's create recipe).

Very Simple.

 

[zoiDman]

I see, thank you for your response. I appreciate it, and I definitely understand much more about the math behind the process. Let's try some more bathrobe advice lol...

So let's say, for the sake of argument, I take my 50/50 base with 38mg of nic, and 30+mg of nic as my final recipe is ok with me (the exact nic number doesn't matter that much since it could be no higher than 38mg), then I add 15% vg flavoring. Just off the top of my head, would the final result be something that roughly has a nic level in the neighborhood of 25-30mg with a pg/vg level somewhere around 60/40-70/30? The final numbers don't have to be dead on, as I can handle the nic level and 60/40 or 70/30 should still vape just fine.

I know that's not how it's supposed to be done, but I'm checking my numbers with this scenerio in order to use what I have because I am experimenting with small batches until I get something close to the juice I'm looking to mimick. I will try to order my PG, VG and nicotine separately going forward.

Thanks again

I think I Understand now what you are trying to do.

You want to Dilute your 38mg/ml Nicotine Base down to something that when you add 15% Flavoring it is at a Vapable Nicotine Level and Desired PG to VG Ratio. That way all you have to do when you want to make a Finished e-Liquid is to grab your Diluted Solution and add Flavoring,

And you Can't take an Easier Route that has more Mathematical Solutions because you Don't have and Can't get 100mg/ml Nicotine Base.

Is that what you Want to Do?

Because if so, we call that technique using "Pre-Mix", And I believe that the Numbers will work for what you have and for what I think you want to End Up With.

Just to be Clear though....

What is your Desired Finished Mix mg/ml and PG to VG Ratio.

ie: 25mg/ml @ 65%PG | 35%VG.

 

[Trent Erikson]

I think I Understand now what you are trying to do.

You want to Dilute your 38mg/ml Nicotine Base down to something that when you add 15% Flavoring it is at a Vapable Nicotine Level and Desired PG to VG Ratio. That way all you have to do when you want to make a Finished e-Liquid is to grab your Diluted Solution and add Flavoring,

And you Can't take an Easier Route that has more Mathematical Solutions because you Don't have and Can't get 100mg/ml Nicotine Base.

Is that what you Want to Do?

Because if so, we call that technique using "Pre-Mix", And I believe that the Numbers will work for what you have and for what I think you want to End Up With.

Just to be Clear though....

What is your Desired Finished Mix mg/ml and PG to VG Ratio.

ie: 25mg/ml @ 65%PG | 35%VG.

I believe having a premix would make life easier. Ideally I'd like to end up around 25mg @ close to 50/50

 

[zoiDman]

I believe having a premix would make life easier. Ideally I'd like to end up around 25mg @ close to 50/50

From my days of using Flavored DIY, I can tell you that it is Much Easier. So here is a Solution that Satisfies those Two Equations for mg/m and for PG to VG Ratio.

To make a "Pre-Mix"...

Now to make a 15% Flavored Final 25mg/ml e-Liquid @ 50%PG to 50%VG...

OK so above is a Unique Solution for those Two Simultaneous Equations. And will work Fine as long as we are making 100ml at each step. But we would like a General Solutions for any given Unit Amount.

Hence it would be Better if we Worked in Percentages and Not Milliliters. Because a Percentage is a Unitless Measurement.

So I look at what I need to do to make 100ml of "Pre-Mix" in the Top Screenshot. But notice since I choose 100ml as my Total Amount, can't I consider the amounts of the Nicotine Base, PG and VG to be used as Percentages?

Hence my "Pre-Mix" Recipe becomes use 78.95% 38mg/ml 50|50 Nicotine Base and 20.23% VG and 0.83% PG. This will give me a Pre-Mix that is 30mg/ml @ 40%PG | 60%VG.

To make my Final Flavored Mix, I can consider the ml's to be Percentages also since the Total was 100ml again. The 2nd Screenshot says to use 83.33% Pre-Mix and 15% PG Based Flavoring(s) and some Trace amounts of VG and PG (0.25% and 1.42% respectively) to make an Exact 25mg/ml 50|50.

Now comes a Nifty use of Tolerance. What would happen if I Didn't add any more PG or VG? And just used the Pre-Mix and the 15% Flavoring? How much would it be Off?

Since the Total Percentage of PG and VG to be Added in Less than 2%, wouldn't my Final Mix be Off be Less than 2%? But the Real Question becomes am I going to be able to Tell the Difference if I didn't know it was there? Like when one buys Retail Pre-Made e-Liquids.

You're really Not. So It's Miller Time! And we are Done! So there you go.

Make 30mg/ml Pre-Mix using the Above Formula.

The Mix 85% Pre-Mix with 15% PG Based Flavoring an La Vola, you'll ready to Vape on some Mouth Watering 25mg/ml 50|50.

Once again... Print this out and have someone Double Check my Math/Typing. I probably Fat-Fingered something Important alone the way.

 

[zoiDman]

BTW - Here is the Site where the Screen Shots came from...

Steam Engine DIY e-Liquid

A Great Site in a Multitude of ways.