Acetyl Pyrazine

[Leothwyn]

This came up in the Capella's thread, and rather than derailing the thread, I thought I'd start a new one. I'm curious to hear how others are using AP.

I did read this thread on diluting it:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/236031-what-these-3-molecules.html#post4469513

But I wasn't happy with that way of doing it. Basically, they say to add 4 drops to 6ml of PG, then use 1 drop of this diluted liquid in a 5ml recipe. I don't like using drops. And, even if I convert their drop amounts to percent, I end up with .4%. It's pretty hard to be precise on small test recipes with such a low amount.

So, I did my own math to make a diluted version where 1% in a recipe would equal 1ppm of AP. Based on TPA's recommendation of 10ppm max, I could use up to 10% in my recipes.
Unfortunately, I don't even taste it at 10%.

Doing a bit of searching, I find some people using the undiluted AP (meaning they haven't further diluted the TPA AP) at around 1%. In one thread, it was used all the way up to 6%.
I also found a thread ( http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-do-any-eastmall-juices-contain-diacetyl.html ) listing the ingredients of some Dekang juice:

• Propylene Glycol (77%)
• Ethanol (10%)
• 1-Malic Acid (3%)
• 3-Methylcyclopentane-1,2-dione (2.5%)
• Vanillin (2.5%)
• 2,3,5,6-Tetramethyl Pyrazine (1.5%)
• Acetyl Pyrazine (1.5%)
• Menthol (1%)
• 2,3,5-Trimethyl Pyrazine (0.3%)
• Rhodinol (0.3%)
• 2-Acetylpyridine (0.2%)
• Beta-Damascenone (0.2%)

So, if AP at 1.5% is 15,000ppm, they're using it WAY stronger than I have been (10 ppm). Even the people using TPA's AP (which comes diluted at 5%) at 1% in a recipe are using it at 500ppm.

I'm thinking that I need to increase my AP levels quite a bit to get the flavor that I'm looking for. The 5% AP from TPA definitely smells like something from a few of my favorite vendor juices.

Increasing the ppms so much gets me wondering about any health risks though. More searching, and I come across this e-cig vapor study:
New Zealand Safety Report_Ruyan Electronic Cig
At the end, they talk about AP at .1% (which is still much higher than the .001% I've been using), and they seem to say that it's safe.

Anyway, I just wanted to share my thoughts so far on this.

 

[Cyrus Vap]

I'm using AP to great effect undiluted. The only 'molecule' I have so far that may benefit from dilution is trimethyl pyrazine, too much and all you taste is acetone. Haven't found the right amount yet

but 5 drops of AP in 5 mls works wonders for me

YMMV, I go heavy on the VG

 

[Leothwyn]

Thanks for the input Cyrus. It's crazy how far off the ppm advice at TPA seems to be from what people are actually doing. I'm going to try some experiments tonight. I'll try the 1 drop/ml..

I'll have to do the same with the trymethyl and guaiacol that I have too. I diluted them to the advised ppms like I did the AP, and they didn't seem to do anything either.

 

[Eric in NJ]

I asked that question to Linda at TPA and she said that it comes diluted already and you do not need to dilute it to add it to a recipe. I asked in an order I placed lastnight and she called me the next day but I was at work and she left a message, awesome service though do not really get a call from anyone from a question anymore Here is a link to it if anyone is interested Acetyl Pyrazine 5% (PG)

Unless you guys are talking about that stuff pure. Not sure where to get that though.

 

[Lydia]

Okay, I did a search, found that all the Acetylpyrazine comes from Chinese manufacturers. It was not easy to find the max ppm for Acetylpyrazine (Ap), but did find at last a statement about it here:

2-Acetyl pyrazine, China 2-Acetyl pyrazine, 2-Acetyl pyrazine exporters, China 2-Acetyl pyrazine Suppliers

“Normal use levels in finished consumer product: 0.05-5 ppm. Council of Europe limits: foods (5 ppm); beverages (5 ppm).
Uses: Daily Flavor, Food Flavor, Tobacco Flavor, Other”

Have seen that the practise of foodflavoring with 1.000 ppm Acetylpyrazine or higher is not unusual. Don’t know, maybe that’s only not unusual for the USA?

Found also the following:PARTS PER MILLION CONVERSIONS ,telling;

“1 ppm = 1/1,000,000 = 0.000001 = 0.0001% of undiluted”, so:
5 ppm = 5/1,000,000 = 0.000005 = 0.0005% of undiluted Ap.

Now step by step my calculation with TPA’s Ap that is sold by TPA in a 5%-dilution (TPA also sells Ap-1% solution and that gives of course other results.) and when staying within the Europe food-limit of max.5 ppm :

1 drop/ml = 1/20 = 5% of undiluted, meaning:
1 drop of undiluted Pa (100%) in 10.000 drops (=500ml) results in 0,0005%; the max. 5 ppm.
1 drop of TPA’s 5% Ap in 500 drops (=5% of 10.000 drops)=0,0005%, the max 5 ppm-dilution, meaning:
1 drop of TPA’s 5% Ap in (500 drops/20 drops) 25 ml of juice is the maximum for food.

So;
1 drop of TPA’s 5% Ap in 5 ml of juice is 5 times to much “for food”, meaning;
1 drop of TPA’s 5% Ap in 1 ml of juice is 25 times to much and 1 drop of this diluted in 1-2 ml base juice will bring it below the max of 5 ppm. We speak here about maximum levels for food, but we vape it and maybe the max. level for food is to high for vaping, we just don’t know. So let’s get on the safer side and therefore choose for a max. of:

1 drop of TPA’s 5% Ap diluting in 5 ml of plain PG and of that dilution I put in max 4-5 drops in 10 ml of e-juice.

Everyone has to decide for themselves. However, I come with a max. European limit for food of 5 ppm in a different way very close to the end result as done earlier thread: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/236031-what-these-3-molecules.html

 

[Leothwyn]

Do you taste it at that amount Lydia? Even at 10ppm I couldn't really tell if it was doing anything. Maybe my tastebuds just don't work well with AP.

I mixed up a couple of test batches (tobaccos with AP) tonight. I made a dilution of 10% AP in PG, then used that at 4%. I'll try them out in a few days.

 

[Lydia]

Leothwyn, again a long reply (..I am not always this way):

Last week, after reading another post regarding Acetylpyrazine, etc. I had just received Ap for the first time and I did immediately a small test and put in 1 drop TPA 5% Ap in about 3 ml of a certain mix. It tasted in this mix very nice, but after vaping it 10-15 mins. my hart beating got faster. When noticing it, I realised I maybe had used to much Ap. Then I started reading on ECF about the proper way of using it in a diy-mix, etc. Did read that Ap can have an irritating effect on skin/airway. And yes, if 5 ppm is the max, that probably explained my faster heartbeating. I had used far more. After doing the math I came up with results as mentioned in my post above. And I tried it.......how wonderful, it became a bit less flavourful, but I could taste it very well and it was still delicious in the mix. And… no more fast heart beatings of it

Yesterday, after reading yr post I started doubting and took again a test; doubled the amounts of ppm’s Ap in the mix and filled a new cart with it. Vaping it;..... it got not better and had IMO a slightly bad effect on the taste. So, I got back to my "old" cart with the mix with about 4 ppm’s Ap..... and this one tasted better, more caramelisch, or something like that; can’t describe that taste very well.

Ap is a strange molecule I have read, if I understand my readings correct, more ppm’s Ap does not always mean more flavour. Less or more ppm’s can give just another kind of flavour; the behaviour of Ap is not the same as a lot of the ingredients when cooking. Nevertheless, if you want to make f.e. a nutty taste (hazelnut, peanut, pistachio or almond taste) with it, in general you have to use a lot of Ap ppm’s to get it, far more as 5 ppm max. European limit. Think of 100-1000 ppm. On the other hand, a natural subtle roasted note effect can be get with 2 ppm Ap for Guava. This is a normal note in natural Guava, so probably the manufacturer of the Guava flavour has already put it in the essence.

Saw that the intake of Ap with food for the general person in the USA over 10 x more is as in Europe. What is the affect of this on the taste buds? F.e. do Europeans detect the taste differences made by Ap more easily because of their lower intake/tasting by food? After vaping my certain mix with Ap for a week, the taste becomes less…, or better said…. my taste buds get used to that mix if I vape/taste it long-time. .... yes, it could be a matter of less working tastebuds.

 

[Leothwyn]

Thanks for the replies Lydia. The racing heartbeat does sound scary. Even before hearing that I was feeling nervous about pushing the amounts up too much. Since the recommended PPMs don't seem to do anything for me, I'm going to see how an amount between what I've seen others using and the recommended PPMs will work out. I guess I'll keep experimenting, and see how low I can get it while still getting a good flavor.

I suspect that some vendors are using it at fairly high amounts. Dekang admitted to 1.5%. Some juices from a favorite vendor of mine smell a lot like AP (a good amount of it probably), and in my searches I found a thread where the people trying to replicate a vendor's juice seemed to think that AP (in a high amount) was the trick.

 

[Cyrus Vap]

Now I'm worried, I'm an AP prostitute lol

 

[ToweKnee]

Thanks for the hard work you guys putting into this. I wish I had some to help with this testing. Keep it up and thanks again.

 

[Lydia]

Now I'm worried, I'm an AP prostitute lol

Oh boy, in combination with yr avatar …. that should make a funny show. I live in Amsterdam, our red zone is famous…. but this is even in Amsterdam not seen before… lol.

Back on the topic:
Testing the assumptions? There are now arguments and facts in favor and not in favor of it. In fact … they speak against each other. Should be nice if there’s someone who knows a bit more of these things and can shed a bit of light on it first.

 

[bonniegirl]

I will take this very question to the medical forum and will respond with a consensus of the medical professional vapers and get back to you all.

 

[Youmadbrah]

So in conclusion . TPA AP 5% needs further diluting , right ? 4 drops in 6ml PG , then use it 1 drop in 5 ml . Right ?

 

[DZ]

So in conclusion . TPA AP 5% needs further diluting , right ? 4 drops in 6ml PG , then use it 1 drop in 5 ml . Right ?

Lol I was going to ask this, thanks for beating me to it.

 

[Leothwyn]

Yes... sort of. That's how to get the recommended PPMs in your recipe.

But, the reason I started this thread was that I don't even taste it at that amount, and that I've seen that some people are using at WAY higher levels... which brings up concerns about safety.

Any word from the medical forum bonnie? (Thanks for checking either way).

 

[Youmadbrah]

Lol I was going to ask this, thanks for beating me to it.

Yes I read this thread twice. The TPA rep said it needs no dilution and some members said it needs and they had some heart racing. My mom has heart's problems man. I think I'll dilute it . Safety first , taste last

 

[gnc207]

Got my Acetyl Pyrazine 5% from TPA, but after reading this and few other posts, still not sure how to proceed with AP; should I dilute it further or no.
Any updates?

 

[Leothwyn]

I'd say try it diluted first. No sense in using more than you need.

Maybe try the dilution that Lydia mentions above: 1 drop of TPA’s 5% Ap diluted in 5 ml of plain PG and of that dilution I put in max 4-5 drops in 10 ml of e-juice.

Personally, it was too weak for me, but you can start there and add drops until it works for you.

 

[Karn]

Acetyl Pyrazine hum ill have to try some

 

[J**2]

Got my Acetyl Pyrazine 5% from TPA, but after reading this and few other posts, still not sure how to proceed with AP; should I dilute it further or no.
Any updates?

The max concentration according to european max concentration is 1 drop of TPA AP using the little pipette (42/ml) in 25 ml juice. Haven't tried yet.

You can do 4 drops in 5 ml of PG then use this.


GGTS, Provari , Reonaut, DIY wannabe chef