Acrolein in VG vapor

[xentio]

Ok, so, I'm still not yet able to post in the main forum, so I'll post this here.

It would seem to me that people are understating the potential impact of acrolein on their health. I switched to ecigs so I could live longer. They require a lot more effort, but I have given up on quitting nicotine entirely, and to me they seemed to be a nearly safe alternative.

After searching this and other forums head to toe, I have seen a great deal of misinformation propagated regarding Acrolein. People say the atomizers don't burn hot enough to produce it, or that by pulling on the ecig you are generating enough pressure to prevent its formation. Yet no one seems to have any real concrete numbers for how hot any of the newer atomizers burn on any of the acrolein posts I've read. Over 530 F is the temp I've read on here that the ecig must reach in order for it to produce Acrolein.

Another thing I have read is this misnomer that because cigarettes contain acrolein as well, at least ecigs are better than them, which to me makes absolutely no sense. Might as well smoke an analog and know I have a 50/50 shot.

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone has a way of determining the temperature of these LR atomizers, and perhaps we could get some temps posted so people know what to avoid. Or so I know what to avoid!

Also, on a side note, a lot of people have been saying that if acrolein is produced it is below acute toxic levels anyway. Here's a link to a study showing prolonged minute exposure causes similar toxicity to acute amounts: Acrolein, a toxicant in cigarette ... [Invest Ophthalmol Vis Sci. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI

It's silly for people to quit a known cancer causing habit for a potentially safe one if it ends up killing them anyway because they just didn't dig deep enough.

 

[Vapoor eyes er]

Here's a thread that may partially allay your fears:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...nt/31335-acrolein-vg-simple-test-results.html

 

[Caridwen]

Here are a few threads you may be interested in.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/experiments-equipment/14359-decomposition-vg-acrolein.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-high-voltage-acrolein-vapers-experience.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...nt/31335-acrolein-vg-simple-test-results.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...n-acrolein-problem-anyone-vaping-vg-read.html



Now that you have 5 posts, I'll move this to Health, Safety and E-Smoking.

 

[AttyPops]

IDK for sure. I think it follows the "boiling water in a paper cup" situation. At least I hope so. So the vaporization of the PG in my mix helps keep it cool as long as the wick is wet.

I really don't know for sure. And I'd like to see more tests...particularly with APVs and different coils and voltage and juice and........

The other quit-smoking solutions didn't work for me. I'm really hoping vaping is safe...or at least much safER than smoking. If it wasn't for vaping I'd probably fall back to smoking. Whatayagonnado?

I think that saying "Might as well smoke a cig" is a defeatist attitude and a rationalization.

 

[Vapoor eyes er]

I KNOW acrolein is present in analogs along with a bunch of other nasty carcinogens and toxins and am hoping/ rollin' the dice that it isn't present in vaping.

 

[B.Traven]

This is supposed to be a response to xentia, not Vapoor. I still haven't got the hang of getting these things where they're supposed to go.

xentia:

My first response on reading this post was: HUH, what now? Since I had never heard of acrolein before I was somewhat befuddled.

Your last sentence, "It's silly for people to quit a known cancer causing habit for a potentially safe one if it ends up killing them anyway because they just didn't dig deep enough." was disturbing enough for me to dig a little deeper, so google here we come...

After reading the Wiki-bit to find out what this stuff is, I pulled up the third search result, something from the National Center for Biotechnology Information, an agency of the National Institutes of Health. The article was titled "Acrolein", so I figured I was on the right track. The first sentence of this article was as disturbing as the last sentence of your post: Acrolein (2-propenal) is ubiquitously present in (cooked) foods and in the environment. It is formed from carbohydrates, vegetable oils and animal fats, amino acids during heating of foods, and by combustion of petroleum fuels and biodiesel."

My god! thought I, I'm doomed! Then I realized, we all are and was able to regain my emotional equilibrium. But I was still curious so I waded further into the search results. That's when I came on this gem, from the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry, part of the Center for Disease Control, the ATSDR/CDC naturally enough. Anyway, here's the part I found interesting:

The Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS) has not classified acrolein as to its carcinogenicity. The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) has determined that acrolein is not classifiable as to carcinogenicity in humans. The EPA has stated that the potential carcinogenicity of acrolein cannot be determined based on an inadequate database.

I also read, in the same report, that breathing small amounts may cause eye-watering and throat soreness, but that these effects disappear when you stop.

So, my question to you is: What's all this cancer causing stuff? What's with all the "trading one cancer causing agent for another that is going to kill us" fear-mongering? How does this help? What's the point? Cui bono?

I remain, most skeptically yours,

btraven

 

[rolygate]

You should contact Intellicig UK, who have an application for a pharmaceutical license in the works for their glycerine-based refill liquid. They have performed tests in this area, including taking an atomizer to 300C, and found no acrolein produced. Assuming that they receive their pharma license, and that their tests are reliable, this does not seem to be a serious problem.

I have seen other analyses, though, where tiny amounts were detected. These tests probably followed the usual format of lab tests on ecigs where the device was erroneously operated upside-down, almost certainly ran dry, and probably produced melted plastic fumes and smoke instead of water-based vapor. No one would have been able to inhale the fumes produced by such a test; apart from the fact that tiny amounts of anything (even cyanide), at a ppb level (parts per billion), are unlikely to be harmful to health - the human body is designed to deal with toxins in small quantities as they are omnipresent.

Ecigs don't normally produce acrolein because the heater coil needs to rise from its normal temperature in the 70C range or maximum temperature of 100C in unusual circumstances, to around three times this temperature in order to degrade glycerine into acrolein. However, an ecig heater coil is liquid-cooled and operates in a submerged or high-humidity environment. In order for the temperature to rise, the liquid has to be removed. If the liquid is removed then there is no liquid to degrade. There are other factors such as the addition of water and other materials to the glycerine, which changes its boiling point and other temperature marks associated with phase change; air pressure; and air cooling.

This does not mean there are no circumstances in which acrolein can be produced; it just means that it is anomalous and rare. For example, it may be that a certain liquid may in certain circumstances, such as at the exact point it runs out and the heater coil temperature rises, produce a small amount of acrolein in the ppb range. At this point the vapor would be dry and unpleasant in any case. This might be facilitated by the use of high voltage equipment, used by a person with reduced sensory capability. So it may be the case that a particular liquid, used in a high voltage device, on a certain type of atomizer, at one single point in the refill cycle, when used by someone with reduced smell or taste, may produce some acrolein in the ppm range that is inhaled.

It isn't seen as a major issue. The best thing to do if health concerns are a major worry for a particular individual is don't use an ecig; or don't inhale but instead use the ecig in cigar-smoking mode - with strong enough nic levels in the refill, it may not be necessary to inhale (depending on the individual). Or use Snus instead as we have sufficient epidemiological data to prove it is virtually harmless.