Alcohol in E-health e-cigarettes. Get a DUI?

[Spazmelda]

So, I was just discussing this with my husband (who IS a chemist), and we did some googling...

We looked up how a breathalyzer works and found that it's a dichromate reaction (oxidizes the primary alcohol). Then we googled 'propylene glycol and potassium dichromate reaction' and we found this old paper. So, we are thinking that it's not impossible that the potassium dichromate reaction could be affected by the presence of propylene glycol in the breath.

I'll look for more later, but my kids are going bonkers right now and DH looks like his head might explode if I ask him any more chemistry stuff.

Chemical structure of propylene glycol:

Structure of ethanol:

 

[Baldr]

HERES THE QUESTION: Everyone keeps talkign about how an electric cigarette does not get you drunk. I 100% understand that. That is not the issue. The issue is he was not arrested for being drunk (it's when you are physically or you seem impared, i.e. slur of speech, incoherent etc) it was for being above the limit of .08 - i.e. the cops even said he did not seem drunk.

The cops don't care if he's drunk. Perhaps that's just now becoming obvious to you, but it's true. All they care is what that machine says. If it says "guilty", then they can lock him up and he'll be forced to pay thousands of dollars, and that's all they care about.

 

[pauljoseph]

Spazmelda: thank you very much for the information. This bit of news is very interesting. I have to wonder if this is possible. I am gonig to find out what type of breathalyzer specifically was used. I think this is actually a very interesting subject for anyone who smokes vapour cigarettes. Perhaps something no one is aware of?

Baldr: I know that. he's already been arrested. Where were at now is deciding whether to just plead guilty or pay all those lawyer fees and fight it. Honestly if he was guilty, or beleived he was he'd just take it on the chin. But it just does not make sense. If this is possible, which is the only explanation i can think of, than he'd fight it. In canada - DWI/DUI is a criminal record. its not just a ticket, you get prints, you can't get certain jobs. whether you know or not - if you are in the US and get a DWI you can't come into canada. it's that serious here. Imagine you've been wrongly accused of something because of a vapour cigarette?

 

[swedishfish]

This might be a good question for Ask the Veterans or the Health & Medical Section.

 

[pauljoseph]

swedishfish: thanks for the tip - i will.

 

[swedishfish]

It's my understanding that it may take some time for your question to get answered because someone mentioned that the questions are discussed by the experts before they're answered. Rolygate is a pharmacist I think so he might know. I don't know if they have a chance to see every single thread in every section.

It's a very interesting question. I do have a chemistry background but I couldn't begin to attempt to answer.

 

[Baldr]

so I was wondering if since the breathalyzer measures the amount of alcohol absorbed in your lungs, is there anything in the ingredients of E-juice that can be mistaken for alcohol?

That's not technically correct. The machine has no idea if the air it's testing has been in your lungs, and there are a number of things other than alcohol which will set it off.

Breath tests are fairly inaccurate. They do a lot of estimating, and they make a lot of assumptions. IMO, you're better off to refuse them and ask for a blood test. Blood tests are much more accurate.

Wiki has a list of things that can cause a breath test to register wrong.

Breathalyzer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[pauljoseph]

swedfish - I posted in the vets section - but could not find the medical section? Sorry - it's a new site and e-cigarettes are foreign to me - trying to navigate through all of these things.

I guess what it comes down to at the end of the day - is that if this could actually affect the results 1) It's a major consideration for manufacturers and people who smoke them. 2) It means he's gonna fight it. Imagine the chance that because of this he's going to spend 10,000 + just because of an glitch. :S

 

[pauljoseph]

Baldr - read the link to wiki - it's very interesting. thanks!

 

[pauljoseph]

THE TYPE OF BREATHALYZER USED WAS: Intoxilyzer 8000C

 

[Mr.JcP]

Im forced to say by the time you are arrested, transported, then tested... There is no vapor from the ecigs still in your lungs other then the true alcohol that's in your blood stream. Now take a drag just before the test then that's different. But they take all contraband from you as your arrested and we know this is not the case. I have a few alcoholic friends that can drink from 6 AM (at work ) till they go to sleep and never appear drunk. But would blow that Breathalyzer off the charts and are " legally " drunk, no, scrach that, Frigen hammered. 3 beers in 1 hour will blow you over the limit. I know I would not show a buzz but again "legally" you cant drive. I may go down to the station to test this theory and exhale my e cig just before the test...

 

[akingsley9000]

I just have a one thing to add to this: Everyone's body processes alcohol differently - those BAC calculators are great but are just a guideline.

 

[pauljoseph]

Hi Mr. JCP:

Thank you for your input. I guess here is the question then. Maybe it's above and beyond the questions appropriate for this forum. 1) I know how much he drank. I can't see how, he could be so high above the limit. That being said - is it not possible that when you are inhaling the content from the e-cigs that you would absorb this as well? There is research showing that individuals who work with hand sanitizers, paints - things that you dont inhale or digest can greatly affect a breathalyzer. Is it not logical that anything you would inhale would also be absorbed into your system as well?

Sadly, the police did not take a blood test

 

[Spazmelda]

The intoxilyzer works differently I think (no dichromate reaction, iirc). Not sure if it would detect glycols.

 

[Mr.JcP]

One way or the other don't let him plead guilty. As the system goes, make them prove it ...

 

[Boodle]

Anyone have an alcohol detector on their car they have to blow in to start the engine? I'm fairly confident we'd have heard it here if ecigs caused those machines to register alcohol present. This is an intimate forum. People talk about bodily functions and not much is off limits. I wish I knew a police officer to test this.

Sounds like a novel defense but at what cost to many?

 

[Iffy]

Don't know when your bud is to hit the courts, but I have a son-in-law whose brother is a Sheriff's deputy. If there's time before your bud's appearance, I can try to set up a vaping breathalyzer test for me and post the results. LMK...

BTW, see my sig line in red for my vaping habit at 70/30-50/50 PG/VG and 18mg.

 

[kinabaloo]

The intoxilyzer works differently I think (no dichromate reaction, iirc). Not sure if it would detect glycols.

Glycols are alcohols. The modern detectors use IR to detect O-H bonds. I gave links already.

Five beers (even over 5 hours) will put anyone way over the limit (especially in Canada where the limit is pretty much zero).

The beer accounts for the reading. But nevertheless, it might well be that breathalizers can detect VG and PG as alcohols (as though it was ethanol). I mention this as a general issue and not with regard to this particular case where it is irrelevant.

 

[Baldr]

One way or the other don't let him plead guilty. As the system goes, make them prove it ...

He blew into the machine. The machine read that he's guilty. In court (at least in the US), that pretty much shuts down any arguments you might want to make. They have all the legal proof they need, since the breathalyzer machines are considered evidence.

It sucks, but that's how it is.

 

[kinabaloo]

Im forced to say by the time you are arrested, transported, then tested... There is no vapor from the ecigs still in your lungs ...

Put a blob of VG on a saucer and post back when it has evaporated (some weeks from now ...). How fast VG is absorbed by the lungs is unknown (once in the bloodstream it is inconsequential).

It would be great if there was no issue of confusion and the test saw only ethanol.
It would be great too if there was an objective test that measured ability to drive (reaction times etc) rather than a simple biochemical level measurement.