Am I on the right track? (Hello, smelly liquids, newbie DIY mixing and forum questions).

[Tor]

Hi there,
First post so, introduction might be in place... I started vaping about 2 weeks ago. I've been smoking 15-20 a day for the last 15 years (with a 1 year break 2 years ago). I am living in Europe.

After some research I bought a Joye 510 set with tobacco flavor (from Totally Wicked, the Titan 510). Since I found it good I have added an eGO-T (from Ovale) to my collections as well.

Together with the Ovale I also ordered some supposedly quality produced liquids all from the same brand that I immediately got rid of because the smell was nauseating to the point of getting sick (the liquid, not the smoke). It almost made me want to quit vaping, until I pinpointed these liquids as the problem, which strangely took a while to realize, probably due to the mixing of atomizers. The best way to describe it, is the smell of liquified sweet-smelly dead horse, which made me think if they accidentally didn't used VG in the mix. I you've seen The Matrix I won't have to further elaborate on my associations. Since other seems to enjoy their liquids I wont mention any names. It might just be me that is sensitive to that overpowering sweet smell.
I boiled my atomizers and let them soak overnight and fortunately the smell went away.
Bottom line, now I got real sensitive to the smell!

Fortunately I also ordered some liquids from Totally Wicked and the same time.
At the moment I vape RY4, Watermelon (from TW Titan series - really Dekang or..?) and the Black Label Marlboro, which tastes nothing the like (I learned now that the Tobacco names doesn't mean a thing). I am quite happy with these 3 liquids and actually like the cheep Chinese the best, because the seem not to have any bi-tastes what so ever.
Now I wrote I am "quite" happy, which means I am still in the search of something better (that will make me quit the last 2-5 cigarettes that I still smoke).

Where do I go from here?

I am reluctant to buy from 10 different flavors from 10 different brands (and the risk of encountering that foul smell again). It seems to me that most European mixed liquids have pretty much the same names and some even use the same pictures. From the reading and researching, I will bet that the majority uses FlavourArts flavoring. Decadent Vapour, ENJuice etc. Anyone who can confirm that?

So I was thinking, why not skip the trying out a lot of different brands, and go straight to DYI? Of course the brand name may have some expertise in the mixing relationships and what goes well together. But when it comes to food I am actually pretty good in a kitchen, so why not? Obviously it will be cheaper as well.

Is it a bad idea as a newbie? Should I just continue using the cheap Chinese liquids (Dekang if that's what TW calls Titan), since I know I am not "allergic" to their smell (not too comfy about them considering what quality control there might be out there toxicity-wise)?

What will give me the best vape experience?
Anyone who can recognize the smell experience that I described? (in that case I would be happy to take liquid advice from you).


I registered to get access to see the following thread:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/liquid-extraction-tobacco/99774-vg-pipe-tobacco-essense.html
Do I need 5 post to see it or how does it work?)

I found the link to this thread after searching about experiences with Flavourarts.

Long winded. If you got this far, than thanks!

 

[SuZamme]

My favorites are the TW Decadent Vapor line of juices and flavorings. For me, their flavors have many subtle flavor undertones that create different undertones depending on what PV/atty combination I use them in.
Since there are literally hundreds of options for juices these days and you have discovered already that some just don't agree with you at all, it is good to have your standbys and then experiment with other flavors in one PV...dripping is good for this experimenting.
Vaping tastes are very individual and so I believe each vaper needs to experiment with different flavors/suppliers/DIY or whatever to find their own "sweet spot" of flavor and PV combination.
Good luck in your continued search...it's a process that occupies us for months and keeps us off the "stinkies".

 

[WomanOfHeart]

More than likely the "dead horse" smell was caused by not blowing out the packing primer from the new atomizers and not the juice itself. The smell and taste are one of the most horrible things one can ever experience, and believe me, I've seen and dealt with a lot of horrible things from my paramedic days. Every time you get new atomizers, you need to either give them a rinse in hot water and let them dry overnight, or blow them out to get rid of the primer.

It's not a bad idea to try out DIY, just make sure that you read up on it before you jump in first. And yes, a lot of vendors use FlavourArt, but they might also use LorAnn's, Cappella's, or The Flavor Apprentice flavors, too. You can email the vendor and ask which brands they use. That being said, I wouldn't be afraid to try different juice vendors or flavors. You'll never know what you REALLY like until you try it. I DIY, but I still buy juice once in a while to try new things and get inspiration for new DIY flavors.

 

[Tor]

Thanks for the replies.
Yes I guess a lot of experimentation will be needed. The liquids I use now also give me very dry mouth - more so than smoking.

I am 100% sure that the smell was not due the attys. I boiled and rinsed them with Vodka before use. Also my skin would be smelly if getting it on the fingers and would take several hand washes to get off. After getting rid of the the box I stored them also needed washing.
Thanks for the advice on reading up on DIY before jumping in. I found the thread http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/74109-guide-diy-flavoring.html and will have a look through for pitfalls.
Any other suggested reading?

 

[dormouse]

5 posts and wait about an hour and then you can post anywhere on the forum. For social groups you would still need an invite to the group.

No, everyone does not use Flavourart (an Italian flavor maker for foods). A few do and you can tell by some of the distinctive flavor names like Oba Oba, oRYental 4, Hypnotic Mist. Also it is possible the Chinese Dekang 100% PG liquid might use Flavourart - no idea. But there are also American flavorings used by many juice makers - Perfumer's Apprentice aka Flavor Apprentice, Faerie's Finest, Seedmans, Capella, Loranns, Flavorwest and others. I have never had a problem with the Flavourart ones. But with any juices, if the flavors are freshly mixed or if they are high in flavoring (like especially if you asked for extra flavor) then there can be a flowery smell which some describe as a perfume smell. You can usually get rid of that by leaving the cap and dropper top off for hours then capping it back up and letting it sit for a week or more (called steeping). I have had problems with one non-Flavourart flavoring being very flowery (in a creamy juice) but it faded with time and I ended up loving the juice. Also have had the same problem with some juices that used Flavorwest flavors.

However, I would not be surprised if most European juice makers used Flavourart since Flavourart is an Italian company.

 

[DropEmCigs]

Hello Tor,
since you are in Europe, you can look at this site for DIY, i.e. buy concentrated nicotine for dilution, some PG and VG to dilute with, and flavors.

The flavors from here are in many of the (recommended) liquids from other suppliers. If you have the patience, it can be fun to make your own solutions. And this should in the end guarantee for only approveable liquids.

 

[Bradder]

Hello and welcome. Be sure to drink a lot of water (fluids) when you first start vaping. The liquids are comprised of drying agents (water absorbing) and can dehydrate you a lot, especially at first. Dry mouth and sore throat is fairly common if a lot of fluids are not taken to counterbalance.

As for the horrible smell, that could have been a number of things. The usual suspect is the priming fluids as WomanofHeart mentioned. It sounds like this was not the case here, however. If you are speaking of the smell of the -liquids right out of the bottle, be aware that some will smell awful when they are "raw" and may have no correlation to how they will vape/taste. As a cook, you are aware that vanilla extract (and other things) can smell pretty bad out of the bottle and if you taste it that way you might never consider putting it into any food . When it is combined and/or diluted, though, it can be great. The same is true for a lot of -e-liquids. If the sweet/sock smell you mention is that, you are probably going to run into it again. I hate it to, but have learned to just no snort the juice. Another cause for this smell can be failing to shake an e-liquid before using it. Sometimes the lighter carrier fluids, or debris for that matter, are closer to the top. If they are the majority of the drip, the taste can be very different than expected (sometimes nasty - sometimes quite nice, depending).

A number of mixed fluids need to be allowed to "breathe and age" before use. This can especially be true of quality mixes that are made fresh to order. Similar to wine and other mixed foods, when something is mixed and immediately packaged and stored many of the gasses/vapers are trapped and need some time to vent off, or evaporate, before the product will taste very good. The aging can allow mixed flavors to meld and mix with time (many people say that F.A. take a longer time to breather/rest).

Last thing I can think of, unless it was just the e-liquids you were using, is that something got into the atty (possibly with the e-fluids) and got burned. A friend of mine recently decided to try vaping and borrowed one of mine after liking it. He took some fluid and the next day called saying something was terribly wrong. When he brought it over it smelled amazingly awful. Looking at it appeared that he had twisted off the cart and got a few fluid-filled fibers attached to the atty which were burning really badly (in every sensory sense of the word). Getting the out then completely cleaning it was the only thing that got it back to normal. That, and teaching him to just push the carts on and not twist them- ever. I had one atty that got a cat hair under it - not a pleasant vape/smell at all!

You will probably love DIY, but do keep in mind the smell of fluids may not be like its final vape. Also, being a safety freak, be sure to read the cautions needed to work with nic-liq. It can be very dangerous stuff. Start slow, start easy. Let mixes breath and age even if you hate them when you first mix them. I strongly recommend the e-Juice Me Up calculator available as a sticky in the Tip/DIY section of ECF. It comes with some recipes that can get you started. Enjoy!

 

[WomanOfHeart]

Bradder, you make an excellent point about the smell of some flavors in the bottle. Some of them do smell a bit nasty. I have a Caramel Cappuccino flavor that smells like old stinky tennis shoes to me. I literally have to hold the bottle away from me and try to hold my breath when I'm mixing with it, but the flavor is one of the best around! I also can't stand the smell of cherry, but that's just me. There are some other flavors I use that don't smell good to me straight in the bottle, but make for an excellent vape when mixed.

 

[banjo]

If you haven't done so already, you wnat to check out these threads:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/74109-guide-diy-flavoring.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...tru-nice-update-e-juice-me-up-calculator.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/65080-flavourart-tobacco-flavor-chart.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/42135-tobacco-flavors-u-s.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/ecf-library-annex/93083-items-you-might-need-diy.html

These threads will give you a good start on your DIY adventure. Thanks for the post & thanks for joining the ECF community.

 

[Tor]

Dormouse, thanks for the additional info that confirms my suspicion.
DropEmCigs, I already have a profile, a wish list and a shopping basket waiting to be checked out on that site

Bradder,
Ok, I didn't think of that. I just wanted to get rid of it as quickly as possible because it was really repulsive to me. These were 5 different flavors, but they were all based on the same tobacco flavored juice. So maybe it was the smell of the tobacco flavor that I found repulsive.

I'm not a cook, I just said I was pretty good in a kitchen. Only stuff I can think of that I add to food that I find repulsive is a very concentrated fish sauce I add to asian food. Cooking for 4 persons more than half a teaspoon and the food would be ruined. But with a few drops it gives the food a nice "round" taste. However, it only smells bad on it's own and not in the final product. I realize that e-liquid is different, but the smell was so bad that just having the PV under the nose was enough. I can't say if it would have been different if they were allowed to breathe for some days. According to the label they were mixed in January. Good info, thanks. Should I get some again, I will let it sit for a while before making up my mind.

 

[Tor]

Banjo..
Thanks for the additional links. I'll check them out.

 

[Tor]

Another question I didn't find addressed in various PG vs. VG discussions. Do the both have equal dehydrating effect?

 

[WomanOfHeart]

Yes, both VG and PG are hygroscopic and attract moisture. PG is more harsh than VG and is one of the components for creating strong throat hit. VG is slightly sweeter, smoother and thicker. It's used to create more vapor, but it can also mute flavors so you have to take that into consideration when doing DIY.

Drink lots of water. Since I started vaping I've begun keeping a bottle of water with me whenever I can. I still drink coffee, tea and the occasional soda, but water and KoolAid have been added to the mix.

 

[Bradder]

Both are hygroscopic, but I think the properties of glycerin make it a bit more so. So while both would be, I think VG would be a bit more dehydrating. PG, however, does seem to be more irritating and could perhaps make the mouth/throat feel drier/scratchier.

Sorry WoH, we were evidently posting at the same time.

 

[Tor]

Ok, thanks again... I am thinking about checking the following out from FA:

Heaven Juice - PG 50 ml 36mg

Pipettes - Polythene 3 ml
Pipettes - Polythene 1 ml

Flavors (all in 7 ml):

Tobacco flavor Latakia
Tobacco flavor Dark Vapure
Anise flavor
Licorice flavor
Coffe espresso flavor
Whisky flavor

Catalan cream flavor

Bitter Wizard flavor

Citrus mix flavor
Cherry, black flavor
Fig fresh flavor

I already have pure PG and VG that I bought from TW, in case I wanted to "water down" some liquids. I would get some 5 ml drip bottles as well, but FA is out of stock.

What do you think about the chosen flavors (except from the subjective part). I put them in the order that i figure they would mix well.
1) Tobacco flavors with Anise or Licorise or whiskey or coffee.
2) Coffee with whiskey or cream
3) The Bitter Wizard to take out unwanted sweetness.
4) The fruit ones basically to vape un mixed.

Anything I am obviously missing. Either flavor the would mix well with the other ones chosen. A FA flavor that is know to be fantastic by itself. Or from the hardware?

Thanks a lot for the help here, I really appreciate it.

 

[WomanOfHeart]

Berry mixes with a little cream flavor and tobacco are heavenly. Coffee with a bit of a cream flavor, chocolate and tobacco are also wonderful. I've also tried bananas mixed with Dark Vapure and that was delicious!

 

[Bradder]

Looks like a good start - WoH, as usual, has some good ideas as well (she makes some great recipes fyi). My only question would be what is your target nic level? Will make a big difference in how quickly you will go through some of your supplies (esp the nic liq).

 

[Tor]

I actually had banana in there, but took it out because I didn't know what to mix it with. I'll put it back in there along with some chocolate.

My target would be around 12mg. So I figure that there is PG/nicotine enough for 150 ml finished juice. I have 50ml PG and 60ml AG from Totally Wicked already. My plan was to decrease the nicotine level until the point I can do with out, and vaping would be "for fun" and because I wanted to, rather than because I need to. But this is further down the road.

At present I vape 1-2 tanks pr. day, roughly 2 ml i guess. And smoke 2-5 cigarettes depending if it's a day off or if I am at work. So it should keep me supplied for a while unless I make a lot of unvapeable stuff.

2 things that worry me:

1) Will I be missing out on some nice premixed vaping experiences.
2) The more bigger worry is the dehydration thing. I mean the lungs are supposed to be moist!?

I know cigarettes are not healthy either, but the adverse effect are know. Before starting I did quite a lot of research. I read up on stuff that's in there and so on, and decided that it appears to be safe enough (and a lot better than cigarettes). But the dehydration thing slipped by. Any reports or at least experiences with the long term effects.

My girlfriend want me to quit all together, and is worried that the liquid is dangerous despite my efforts to convince her otherwise. I wonder why the governments are working so hard against vaping instead of conducting proper research and getting the fact on the table, when it has the potential to help so many people.

 

[jlarsen]

Though I have yet to order from the site myself, yet, I recommend checking out the One Stop DIY shop, and e Juice Me Up. EJMU has software with recipes, and the OS DIY shop let's you order e juice, PG, VG, and flavorings from three different sources to combine shipping on all the products. When I run out of my sampler packs of Halo e juice, Red Oak e juice, and Blu cartridges and cartomizers, that is the route I plan to take.

 

[Bradder]

Sounds as if you have a plan and the items you have ordered should turn out great. As for your questions and concerns, in my opinion they are understandable. Everyone must determine for themselves what potential risks there might be with anything. For me, I figure that between, colognes, perfumes, hairsprays, campfires, car/bus exhausts, and the number of things that I inhale everyday, the PG/VG products which are used in many products are, comparatively, not a big deal. Too, since I smoked 3 pad for about 40 years without any problems, vaping is probably a lot less traumatic to my system than smoking ever was.

With the "missing out..." that may not be the case. Yes, there are a lot of great vapes out there and I still purchase pre-mixes - partly for the fun, partly for the uniqueness of the flavors, and partly to try to dissect flavors to attempt a diy. The great part is that typically the amount of money spent on vapes vs. cigs is pretty large, so making a few pre-mix purchases, in my mind, is not an unreasonable expense.

In regards to the dehydration concerns, they really are not at the levels where your lungs would be dehydrating or drying out. In general PG and VG are used in a lot of items that we use and breath. There have been studies and as I recall, though I have not read all of them by any stretch, there was only one that showed some breathing issues. The rest identified that PG/VG liquid and fumes were perfectly safe unless taken in at extremely high levels (liters not ml). As for keeping hydrated this, in my opinion only, is a pretty standard recommendation for anyone doing anything (exercising, quitting smoking, hiking, vacationing, singing, breathing - you get the idea. Actually, drinking alcohol is extremely dehydrating which contributes to the dreaded hangover. Bottom line, most people simply don't drink enough water. The general opinion in human physiology is that if one feels thirsty, one has already gone into dehydration.

As to why governments are fighting PV/Vaping, I am sure there are different reasons everywhere. In the US major tobacco lobbies and anti-smoking lobbies have really rallied against e-cigs. There is also a problem with how to get it taxed at a higher rate than simple retail. IN any case, my guess these roadblocks are for monetary and "control freak" purposes. In my opinion, some people won't be happy until the only animals having any fun are the laboratory rats . Other places are simply concerned and/or paranoid about anything and everything. I figure after all my years of living, smoking, drinking, drugging, and eating just about anything I ever wanted, I am still healthy... my motto is anything in moderation which works for me.

I hope that you make the right decision for you. I am comfortable with my choices in that should I find out anything I am doing was really bad for me, I will take the consequences and be happy with the choices I have made and the enjoyment I had. Good luck in your treck.