An interesting thread over at UKVapers forum

[Becloud]

Hi there all not sure if this is in the right place admins ?

I posted this in the new members forum before I had my five posts but got there so here goes...


My friend Mufftrix on UKVF started the thread about the ever increasing e juice sellers that kept cropping up all over the place selling very cheap e liquid and no one knowing where it was made or what was in it.

It turned into something even bigger and as a result of the thread we are now changing the way most of the big and even the smaller vendors are labelling their juices.

My name on that forum is Mystic and I tend to be very vocal when I get going and that thread and the subsequent follow up thread are no exceptions.

I thought you guys might want to have a look and let me know what your feelings on the subject discussed in the threads.

Please try and read the whole thread or you will only have half the story and I know its a big thread but it is an important subject that effects all vapers.

The thread link for the main thread that's now closed is as follows.

Mufftrix's Vape Lab! (Vendors Please Feel Free To Comment!) - UK Vapers suggest you try and read it all as it takes a while to get going and ended up getting many of our larger vendors involved.

This thread it the follow up ;-)

Credit Where Credit Is Due And Just Shows That Vendors Do See The Need - UK Vapersegards
David

 

[John Phoenix]

I have read most of the thread and I want to comment. Will comment more after I read the rest.


Your take on it is:

But mark my words chaps, regulation is coming and we as the consumers will be the ones that are going to be hit.

There is an easy solution to the problem and its called self regulation.

Vendors need to be seen to be putting on their websites the full contents of their juices and to also provide us the consumer information of where they have sourced their NIC and where these juices have been mixed.

AND

I am wanting vendors that we buy said juices from to come forward and show us how they make and where they make their juices and to also clearly label the contents of said juices.

I want to know where my juice was made, what it contains so that I/we the customer can decide if we are happy with said vendor's methods of making said juice.

Examples of what some consider good labeling.

Ingredients: PEG400: Polyethylene Glycol (75%)/PG: Propylene Glycol (75%)/VG: Vegetable Glycerol (75%) & 3-Methylcyclopentane-1, 2-Dione (2.5%) 1-Malic Acid (3%) 2,3,5,6-Tetramethylpyrazine (1.5%) 2,3,5-Trimethylpyrazine (0.3%) Beta-Damescenome (0.2%) Acetylpyrazine (0.2%) 2-Acetylpyradine, Ethanol (10%) Rhodinol (0.3%) Vanillin (2.5%) Ethyl Acetate (0.5%) Ethyl Maltol (1%) 2-Methyl-Butyric Acid (0.5%)

When asked what vendor this was someone replied:

Looks like the contents of Dekang juice sold by Vaporworld

Here is another

Delivery from Vaporium, never dealt with them before but all details on leaflet. PG 71% Vanilla ext 14% Eleutheroside El 5% Beta-ionone 1.5% Water 5% Peach Aldehyde 1% Rhodinol1% Rose oil 1.5% Made in China by Dekang Biotechnology.

Liberty Flights replied;

I am not sure you will ever see a complete list of ingredients on labels, it will be viewed by most as a trade secret. I can see why a company producing juice would simply put PG, VG, nicotine (2.4%), flavourings and leave it at that. You will see gcms testing. I just don't know down to what level the ingredients will go down to, what is the legal requirement.

This is the Big Point. large vendors for the most part wont do this type of labeling because they are afraid it will give away the trade secrets. They, rather than volunteering this info for the good of all the industry are sitting back waiting on the government to force regulate - willingly - because they believe the government will not force them to list the ingredients as stated above. They believe their requirements will be lax.

This is why this industry will not self regulate. They want to do the very least required of them.

I mentioned Liberty Flights reply but i wasn't picking on them. To be fair they bring up a good point

I am a vendor. None of the companies supply me with a full range of ingredients; that includes DV, Hangsen, Pink Spot, Vermillion River, Flavourart, Perfumers Apprentice. We have had ingredient lists from Hangsen, when that was put on the bottle it looked like a list of chemicals and had complaints due to this.

I believe the solution is not to list the ingredients on the bottles but to list them on the website so at least this information is accessible to those who want it.

Now the argument about giving away trade secrets by listing all of the ingredients is silly. You are not listing your ratios of each ingredient Like these above, only the ingredients themselves so no one can faithfully recreate your recipe. This is unhealthy paranoia. Take food labeling for instance. All ingredients have to be listed, yet, no one is able to make exact copy cat products just from the ingredients list.

I do not know why these two examples listed thier ratios but i do not think this is what is being called on vendors to do.. unless I am mistaken, Becloud can correct me.

How many people know what

3-Methylcyclopentane-1, 2-Dione (2.5%) 1-Malic Acid (3%) 2,3,5,6-Tetramethylpyrazine (1.5%) 2,3,5-Trimethylpyrazine (0.3%) Beta-Damescenome (0.2%) Acetylpyrazine (0.2%) 2-Acetylpyradine, Ethanol (10%) Rhodinol (0.3%) Vanillin (2.5%) Ethyl Acetate (0.5%) Ethyl Maltol (1%) 2-Methyl-Butyric Acid (0.5%) and Eleutheroside El 5% Beta-ionone 1.5% Water 5% Peach Aldehyde 1% Rhodinol1%

are?

I don't. I want to know if this is in my e-juice. Many people research ingredients on food labels. Many of these chemicals can and do adversely effect health. I'd want to know that about my e-juice. Wouldn't you?

I think it's fair to say most of the chemicals listed above are ingredients that make up flavorings. You can have straight unflavored e-juice made only of PG, VG and nicotine without any of those chemicals.

Interesting thread so far.. I'm gonna finish reading it.

Hey, How about a push for organic ingredient based juices?

 

[Becloud]

Hi

Please read it all as yes we came to the agreement that it would be asking too much for vendors to add a full list of contents due to the very thing you mention.

We then mention the health aspect of not labeling and thats where the changes have been made as in the pg/vg ratios.

I brought that problem up due to my partner being asthmatic and if she has a vape of something thats over a % of PG her lungs start to close.

A 50/50 blend she is fine.

Non of the bottles in my box and I mean non including ones from Vermillion River have the ratio of pg/vg on the bottle.

So as I pointed out in the thread if I was away from my house and my partner wanted to vape a juice she could potentially end up in hospital due to me not being there to tell her which was safe for her.

I got stupid comments from many people with regards to that and I just ignored them as they are not very constructive.

The point of all of it is this.

If there is a person the is either pg/vg intolerant are you happy that they have no other option than smoke normal cigs and not vape when a simple label change could keep that person vaping and healthier or potentially put that person in hospital because of the lack of said label.

That above was after you get into the thread and all the crap sorted through was when we started getting vendors responding and thats when I got ...... with them for the imature responces like "there not room on the lable"

Read through it all (and that goies for everyone, vendors included) and then come back and let me know what you think.

These changes are coming and we as a community can make the changes in the way that is both informative for us vaping it and to also show the powers that be that we are doing our bit to self regulate and protect our fellow vapers.

We can discuss this one you have read the thread as I say unless you do its hard to fully comment as most of your comments were with regards the first half of the thread

I look forward to having a healthy dialogue

Forgive any spelling mistakes should there be any and there will be

David

 

[Youmadbrah]

I ordered 360 ml of cheap juice from Bluemist. Hope it doesn't contain something harmful :S

 

[Becloud]

If you trust the vendor that should never be an issue.

Buying cheap liquid is like anything else you buy on the cheap in this case more so as ultimately you are putting it in your lungs.

Buying food from a cheap vendor may just give you a bout of food poisoning and you will live, vaping something you have no idea of its source or the quality control measures in place could be a lot worse.

 

[Cadaoryn]

I used to have a little back up ecig from dealextreme. I tossed it because the juices that came standard in it made me feel queezy and ill.

 

[John Phoenix]

I did finish reading it and I see several vendors including LF volunteered to change the labeling.

I see lots of small companies juices with almost nothing on the label.

I wonder if many vendors found a new way to rip us off. I have two bottles in front of me from different vendors that say 24mg/ml on the label. These are supposed to be 30 ML size bottles.

Where did my other 6 ml's go? That's false advertising and stealing and is illegal in the USA.

These two companies are Void Mist and MtBakerVapor. Void Mist has nothing else on the bottle. MtBakerVapor does say 50/50.

Hey Vendors. If I order 30 ML I better damn well get a full 30 ML !! That's only fair and your legal responsibility.

Now there may actually be 30 ml's in the bottles - I have no way to know unless I dump it all out into a graduated cylinder but don't label the bottle 24 ml when I ordered 30.

Don't reply to these comments here folks.. I'm going to make a new thread about it. It deserves it's own and I dont want to take away from the Op's thread, but I did think it was relevant to this discussion.

 

[mostlyclassics]

John Phoenix, I believe you're misreading the labels. "24 mg/ml" means that there are 24 milligrams of nicotine per milliliter of e-juice. That statement doesn't say anything about how many milliliters of e-juice there are in that particular bottle.

If there's no statement of volume of e-juice on the label, you can pour the contents of the bottle into a graduated cylinder to read the volume of e-juice in the bottle. If there's substantially less in the bottle than what you ordered, then you have a beef with the vendor.

 

[John Phoenix]

John Phoenix, I believe you're misreading the labels. "24 mg/ml" means that there are 24 milligrams of nicotine per milliliter of e-juice. That statement doesn't say anything about how many milliliters of e-juice there are in that particular bottle.

If there's no statement of volume of e-juice on the label, you can pour the contents of the bottle into a graduated cylinder to read the volume of e-juice in the bottle. If there's substantially less in the bottle than what you ordered, then you have a beef with the vendor.

That may be that case but we still have a labeling problem. It's misleading when most other bottles I have will say "24mg 30ml" Once you get used to that "24 mg/ml" doesn't look right.

 

[Becloud]

John

With regards your problem the only one that can change the way the labelling is you putting pressure on the vendor to label their product in a less misleading way.

I know many will say one person cant make them make changes WRONG

I did and as a result I get emails from other vendors that didnt take part in the thread above saying that they understand the need to make their product as understandable as possible and to not just rely on information of the website as a) not everyone has internet and b) a vendor could stop trading in say six months and their juice still be around with no product detail other than 24mg pg/vg or worse as some I have here 24mg and the name of the flavour.

 

[markfm]

The 24 mg/ml label is actually a more complete statement than 24mg. The bottles are both 24 mg/ml, 30 ml, actually have a total of 720 mg of nicotine in the full bottles (assuming they are indeed 30ml.)

Please note, if a particular vendor's bottle looks "short", not filled all the way, you may well still be getting what you paid for. I DIY a lot, my "30 ml" bottles, as purchased in bulk, are actually about 36ml. I've checked my 30, 15, 10, and 6, using graduated beakers -- they all are noticeably higher volume than nominal.

 

[Becloud]

As for your other post yes Liberty Flights were one of the first to tell me they were willing to make the change to their labelling.

As you pointed out what about the smaller vendors.

Well I know of 2 very small vendors one that made the changes to his bottles and didnt get in contact as a direct result of the thread and another that contacted me by email that also did not take part in the thread and this is the information he game me.

"All of our liquids are prepared in a custom-designed commercial production environment, with food industry levels of hygiene and equipment. They are prepared and packaged by trained staff, and supplied in childproof bottles with tactile warning labels, and are heat sealed in polythene for transit. All our ingredients are sourced from reputable suppliers, and we provide detailed information on the website about the proportions of PG, VG, nicotine and flavouring here All About ENjuice Liquids and here http://enjuice.com/index.php?route=information/faq"

"We take seriously the concerns raised in the thread and while we publish extensive information on the website, I can understand the desire to have as much information as possible on the product label itself. As a result will bring forward the implementation of new colour labels we have been planning and will include a list of ingredients on both the label and the revised Safety Information Leaflet that is included with every order dispatched. In addition we will publish a new page on the website providing information on our production processes and showing photographs of the production environment. You can expect to see this implemented in the coming 3-4 weeks."

This vendor is very popular here in the UK and was one of the ones that prompted me to get involved with the thread in the first place as his bottles only had the name of the flavour and the strenth of the juice.

I take pride that I have been able to help in a small way to helping the vaping community with regards to the issue of labelling and with the overall response of many of the main vendors and small alike.

I'm sure as regulation comes into play these changes will help lessen the impact it will have as clearer labelling goes a long way to help alleviate worry from third parties as to the contents of ejuice.

 

[martinc]

The law up here in Canada requires that all products for consomation should have the full list of ingredients (they dont care about %)...maybe tis is why e-cigs are getting the evil eye (well,one of the reasons)

 

[Becloud]

The law up here in Canada requires that all products for consomation should have the full list of ingredients (they dont care about %)...maybe tis is why e-cigs are getting the evil eye (well,one of the reasons)

I have to agree with you Im afraid Martin.

The other unfortunate problem is them being referred to as e-cigs a name I hate with a vengeance and most authorities see the word cig and we have already lost.

 

[John Phoenix]

Can you tell me more about this CHIP labeling?

BTW, My other thread was closed. I have dealt with Classwife about closing it on a sour note. I was honestly not used to seeing labels like this and do think they could have used "24MG/ML - 30 ML" instead to avoid any confusion because it can be misleading. My confusion came because I almost never order pre-mixed juices. I have been a DIYer since the first day I started vaping. I believe she jumped the gun, further issues that could have been dealt with were not given the chance.

Anyway, we need standard labeling across the board on both sides of the pond. Our trade association had a very short life. Now, no one in the US is willing to be part of a trade association except for the users - vendors are not interested. I had proposed a trade association made up of both vendors and users where all would have equal input into how it was run. E-cig users were for it, and no vendors replied. Will government regulation satisfy the needs of the end user? We have no way of knowing.

 

[Becloud]

Hopefully this thread will get the vendors to rethink the way they are maybe it wont but there is nothing better than refusing to purchase juice from a vendor that is not willing to see sense

As I explain in that thread I posted all it needs is 1 death from someone who is either vg or pg intolerant and the vendors will be out of business over night.

Saying you should not be vaping because you are intolerant is a cop out. Many people never have contact with either until they vape.

Also the intolerance can be minor for one ratio of liquid and not for another.

Also the reaction can be brought on after a number of weeks or a matter of hours.

All I asked in the tread is that consumers ie. us have informed choice and at the moment we dont and that can only be bad for the community as a whole and a minefield for vendors not labelling their juices.

 

[Becloud]

I even saw Scott at E-Cig-Reviews.com - Electronic cigarette and E-Liquid video reviews, tutorials, user guides and discount codes did a review of an ejuice recently and he even quoted the PG/VG ratio's, I am unsure if that was a direct result of the thread I have no way of knowing other than asking and as I also pointed out in the thread I dont really get involved with stuff I'm a watcher.

The reason behind me being vocal about this issue is that my partner has a problem with certain proportions of pg/vg and it closes her airways.

I looked in my juice box and not one of the bottles gave a listing on them.

To me that makes no sense at all and is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

If someone in the know can give me another title for the thread that will get vendors to partake in this thread I would be very grateful.

 

[Becloud]

Very disappointed by the lack of interest by vendors so I have changed the thread title and we will see if any have anything to say for themselves.

No response to me amounts to apathy with regards your customers health.

If you have access to email the vendors you purchase ejuice from please drop them an email and point them at this thread and lets see if we can get things changed.