Anyone got scientific explaination for Steeping?
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I wonder about how to accelerate the process too. I think that heat ruins the product rather than making it better.
Several times I have accidentally left some fresh DIY mixes on the hot car seat only to find they taste like crap afterward.
Maybe slightly chilling it would be desirable? Maybe 50degF.?
Several times I have accidentally left some fresh DIY mixes on the hot car seat only to find they taste like crap afterward.
Maybe slightly chilling it would be desirable? Maybe 50degF.?
both PG and VG easily absorb water from the air (hygroscopic) when leaving it open, i wonder if that's what makes the flavors 'pop'.
I'm thinking of adding like 1% distilled water to the new batch i ordered and see if it makes a difference. Have to wait another 3 days before they get here.
Anyone got fresh e-liquids that usually needs to steep/age willing to add water and post results?
I'm thinking of adding like 1% distilled water to the new batch i ordered and see if it makes a difference. Have to wait another 3 days before they get here.
Anyone got fresh e-liquids that usually needs to steep/age willing to add water and post results?
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Not sure but I think it's probably the same thing that happens to sauces or chilli when you let them sit in the fridge for a couple of days. Taste so much better.
I just got a few small bottles of Backwoods Brew and I was going to try them out right away until I stumbled across a thread suggesting to let them steep for a week for the best flavor. I emailed the manufacturer and asked his take on it. He confirmed that, while they should taste fine right away, "some flavors" improve after steeping. So I'll wait a week and see how they taste. I suppose I should try them now and have a basis for comparison, but I think it's better to keep 'em sealed up until the week passes.
I am just taking a guess here: Diffusion I would imagine the more chemically complex a liquid is, the longer it takes for the liquid to reach equilibrium.
i thought about diffusion, but that would cause taste to be really weak or really strong at times?
but just to test, I think i'm going to throw some new e-liquid bottles in the dryer (cool air) and let it tumble for a few hours and see if that helps.
but just to test, I think i'm going to throw some new e-liquid bottles in the dryer (cool air) and let it tumble for a few hours and see if that helps.
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This has been mentioned elsewhere, and I've noticed it in some of my juices: The color changes over a period of time with some juices. I'm no chemist, but from what I understand, a color change would indicate some sort of chemical reaction has taken place, not simply diffusion of the components. In the few ingredients listings I've seen for commercially sold juice, it is FAR from the simple concoctions most of us come up with in DIY mixing.
I like congaman's observation in post #4, and feel it has a bearing on juice steeping. But, I certainly couldn't explain that in scientific terms either.
I like congaman's observation in post #4, and feel it has a bearing on juice steeping. But, I certainly couldn't explain that in scientific terms either.
I've also wondered about this and read that some Ms T's Bakery flavors need time to steep. I tried them out on new attys the day I got them, and have tried that same atty every day since. I do notice a difference everyday. I am not taking the lids off and wonder if that is the normal method to steep-Lid off or on?
Okay so I'm going to give this one a shot, not exactly scientific, but makes sense in my own head. LOL
I've tried all different methods of trying to steep faster. Blow Dryer on Cool, as well as hot. Putting them in the fridge @ 50-ish degrees. Even the freezer, nothing seems to work. I've even gone as far as warming them up to about 85 deg then quickly cooling them in an ice bath, thinking maybe it would be like Jello and set better. NOPE.
My only conclusion to this would be in the Ethyl Maltol (sweetner) found in most mixes or nic juices. And like others have said, some things do taste better when letting them set for a few days for those flavors to really react and take on traits of one another. Like Soups. Stews. Chili. Pot roast. and fine wine. AGING is what makes them best.
Maybe it has some form of gelatin/glutans in it that, like food, need to set? I took this from a food website to kinda give you an idea as to maybe WHY it needs to steep/set for a few days.
"One was that soups made from soup bones may benefit from a night in a refrigerator because the bones contain a natural gelatin, which may set a little more with time. In this case, he said, the difference would be with an improved texture of the soup. His other idea starts with the ingredients that are found in many of these dishes. Mushrooms, tomatoes, carrots, and beef all are high in free glutamates, which are amino acids. Glutamates are key in creating the taste of savoriness, which is also known as umami. Given time, the free glutamates found in mushrooms, for instance, might be able to blend with the other items in the meal. That way, instead of getting the savory taste of a mushroom only when you bite into a mushroom, you will also get it throughout the whole dish. Which sounds like a fancy way of saying, the flavors all come together the longer they sit, they all complement each other."
Now we just may have a possible scientific explanation. ^^ I think this applies to the ingredients used to make flavors, pre-mixes, and nic bases. But hey, I'm no scientist. LOL
I think it does come down to the malic acid and ethyl maltol, but again I could be wrong.
But I've noticed a fresh batch vs a new batch gains these traits:
thicker
darker
better aroma
top notch flavor (combined)
I've tried all different methods of trying to steep faster. Blow Dryer on Cool, as well as hot. Putting them in the fridge @ 50-ish degrees. Even the freezer, nothing seems to work. I've even gone as far as warming them up to about 85 deg then quickly cooling them in an ice bath, thinking maybe it would be like Jello and set better. NOPE.
My only conclusion to this would be in the Ethyl Maltol (sweetner) found in most mixes or nic juices. And like others have said, some things do taste better when letting them set for a few days for those flavors to really react and take on traits of one another. Like Soups. Stews. Chili. Pot roast. and fine wine. AGING is what makes them best.
Maybe it has some form of gelatin/glutans in it that, like food, need to set? I took this from a food website to kinda give you an idea as to maybe WHY it needs to steep/set for a few days.
"One was that soups made from soup bones may benefit from a night in a refrigerator because the bones contain a natural gelatin, which may set a little more with time. In this case, he said, the difference would be with an improved texture of the soup. His other idea starts with the ingredients that are found in many of these dishes. Mushrooms, tomatoes, carrots, and beef all are high in free glutamates, which are amino acids. Glutamates are key in creating the taste of savoriness, which is also known as umami. Given time, the free glutamates found in mushrooms, for instance, might be able to blend with the other items in the meal. That way, instead of getting the savory taste of a mushroom only when you bite into a mushroom, you will also get it throughout the whole dish. Which sounds like a fancy way of saying, the flavors all come together the longer they sit, they all complement each other."
Now we just may have a possible scientific explanation. ^^ I think this applies to the ingredients used to make flavors, pre-mixes, and nic bases. But hey, I'm no scientist. LOL
I think it does come down to the malic acid and ethyl maltol, but again I could be wrong.
But I've noticed a fresh batch vs a new batch gains these traits:
thicker
darker
better aroma
top notch flavor (combined)
Okay so I'm going to give this one a shot, not exactly scientific, but makes sense in my own head. LOL
I've tried all different methods of trying to steep faster. Blow Dryer on Cool, as well as hot. Putting them in the fridge @ 50-ish degrees. Even the freezer, nothing seems to work. I've even gone as far as warming them up to about 85 deg then quickly cooling them in an ice bath, thinking maybe it would be like Jello and set better. NOPE.
My only conclusion to this would be in the Ethyl Maltol (sweetner) found in most mixes or nic juices. And like others have said, some things do taste better when letting them set for a few days for those flavors to really react and take on traits of one another. Like Soups. Stews. Chili. Pot roast. and fine wine. AGING is what makes them best.
Maybe it has some form of gelatin/glutans in it that, like food, need to set? I took this from a food website to kinda give you an idea as to maybe WHY it needs to steep/set for a few days.
"One was that soups made from soup bones may benefit from a night in a refrigerator because the bones contain a natural gelatin, which may set a little more with time. In this case, he said, the difference would be with an improved texture of the soup. His other idea starts with the ingredients that are found in many of these dishes. Mushrooms, tomatoes, carrots, and beef all are high in free glutamates, which are amino acids. Glutamates are key in creating the taste of savoriness, which is also known as umami. Given time, the free glutamates found in mushrooms, for instance, might be able to blend with the other items in the meal. That way, instead of getting the savory taste of a mushroom only when you bite into a mushroom, you will also get it throughout the whole dish. Which sounds like a fancy way of saying, the flavors all come together the longer they sit, they all complement each other."
Now we just may have a possible scientific explanation. ^^ I think this applies to the ingredients used to make flavors, pre-mixes, and nic bases. But hey, I'm no scientist. LOL
I think it does come down to the malic acid and ethyl maltol, but again I could be wrong.
But I've noticed a fresh batch vs a new batch gains these traits:
thicker
darker
better aroma
top notch flavor (combined)
Thank you for sharing your experiences!
Especially on what you've tried to speed up the aging. Those were on my 'to try' list and i guess i'll just skip them.
Once thing i noticed, I have direct tasted the e-liquids (makes my tongue all tingly and a nic buzz soon after, lol) when i first got them, 2 weeks, 4 weeks. the taste is the same to my tongue. They taste great and makes me just want to direct drip and skip vaping all together, loool.
But when it comes to vaping them, they taste different, and some improving with aging, and some the flavor just gets lighter.
Another thing i noticed is the left over juice in the carto after several refills, they are much much darker in color than the liquids in the bottle when i initially vap them, and after aging, the left over juice are much closer in color. Makes me think that flavoring dont vaporize along with VP/PG nicely until they bond to VG/PG after steeping/aging.
do certain flavoring cause PG/VG to oxidize? or do VG/PG go through some kind of chemical reaction when combined together? maybe that's helping the flavors vaporize better?
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LOL. I taste ALL of my liquid. dunno why, but I do. Prob not good for the tongue or stomach, but hey. I like tasting it.
I agree the taste is always the same when tongue testing. But smell testing does change in the aroma field.
The creamier, Coffee-ish ones seem to steep better wheras the lighter fruity one's, TO ME, seem to lose flavor after a week. High Fruit flavor one's don't seem to. Which brings me to QUALITY of flavor being used. Maybe the higher flavor concentrate has a lot to do with the steeping process. Which would make me go back to my whole theory on the malic acid and ethyl maltol.
Malic Acid - is the active ingredient in many sour or tart foods. Malic acid is found mostly in unripe fruits. Malic acid has two stereoisomers, a left-handed L-enantiomer and a right-handed D-enantiomer, but only the L isomer exist naturally. The salts and esters of malic acid are known as malates. The malate anion is an intermediate in the citric acid cycle. Malate plays an important role in biochemistry. In the C4 carbon fixation process, malate is a source of CO2 in the Calvin cycle. In the citric acid cycle, (S)-malate is an intermediate, formed by the addition of an -OH group on the si face of fumarate. It can also be formed from pyruvate via anaplerotic reactions. Malate is also produced from starch in guard cells of plant leaves. A build-up of malate leads to a low water potential. Water then flows into the guard cells causing the stoma to open. However, this process does not always induce the opening of stomata.
So I am assuming this malic acid over a few days of steeping reduces the water levels thus changing it's chemistry to a more citric acid upping its potential of flavor?? I'm trying to find science in this steeping process. More...
Ethyl maltol - is an organic compound that is common flavorant in some confectionaries. It is related to the more common flavorant maltol by replacement of the methyl group by an ethyl group.[2] It is a white solid with a sweet smell that can be described as caramalized sugar and cooked fruit. Maltol, like related 3-hydroxy-4-pyrones such as kojic acid, binds to hard metal centers such as Fe3+, Ga3+, Al3+, and VO2+.[1] Related to this property, maltol has been reported to greatly increase aluminum uptake in the body [2] and to increase the oral bioavailability of gallium [3] and iron. [4]
So I guess it does come down to the ingredients in the flavoring. Between the Sour/Tart and Sweets. Both are used in most flavorings and premixes. and this would explain why steeping or letting the 2 sit together would cause them to "bind" together making it taste better.
And yes, PG does Oxidize to certain acids as well as air. this is a copy and paste "Propylene glycol undergoes metabolic oxidation to many different acids" and "Propylene glycol oxidizes when exposed to air and heat. When this occurs lactic acid is formed."
Hope I helped more!
I agree the taste is always the same when tongue testing. But smell testing does change in the aroma field.
The creamier, Coffee-ish ones seem to steep better wheras the lighter fruity one's, TO ME, seem to lose flavor after a week. High Fruit flavor one's don't seem to. Which brings me to QUALITY of flavor being used. Maybe the higher flavor concentrate has a lot to do with the steeping process. Which would make me go back to my whole theory on the malic acid and ethyl maltol.
Malic Acid - is the active ingredient in many sour or tart foods. Malic acid is found mostly in unripe fruits. Malic acid has two stereoisomers, a left-handed L-enantiomer and a right-handed D-enantiomer, but only the L isomer exist naturally. The salts and esters of malic acid are known as malates. The malate anion is an intermediate in the citric acid cycle. Malate plays an important role in biochemistry. In the C4 carbon fixation process, malate is a source of CO2 in the Calvin cycle. In the citric acid cycle, (S)-malate is an intermediate, formed by the addition of an -OH group on the si face of fumarate. It can also be formed from pyruvate via anaplerotic reactions. Malate is also produced from starch in guard cells of plant leaves. A build-up of malate leads to a low water potential. Water then flows into the guard cells causing the stoma to open. However, this process does not always induce the opening of stomata.
So I am assuming this malic acid over a few days of steeping reduces the water levels thus changing it's chemistry to a more citric acid upping its potential of flavor?? I'm trying to find science in this steeping process. More...
Ethyl maltol - is an organic compound that is common flavorant in some confectionaries. It is related to the more common flavorant maltol by replacement of the methyl group by an ethyl group.[2] It is a white solid with a sweet smell that can be described as caramalized sugar and cooked fruit. Maltol, like related 3-hydroxy-4-pyrones such as kojic acid, binds to hard metal centers such as Fe3+, Ga3+, Al3+, and VO2+.[1] Related to this property, maltol has been reported to greatly increase aluminum uptake in the body [2] and to increase the oral bioavailability of gallium [3] and iron. [4]
So I guess it does come down to the ingredients in the flavoring. Between the Sour/Tart and Sweets. Both are used in most flavorings and premixes. and this would explain why steeping or letting the 2 sit together would cause them to "bind" together making it taste better.
And yes, PG does Oxidize to certain acids as well as air. this is a copy and paste "Propylene glycol undergoes metabolic oxidation to many different acids" and "Propylene glycol oxidizes when exposed to air and heat. When this occurs lactic acid is formed."
Hope I helped more!
This kind of freaks me out. It sounds very dangerous to be inhaling this stuff...
If you're scared of what I posted. Just avoid using PG and use VG, problem solved
Nothing to be scared of in VG, it's all natrual. Dangerous? If used with caution, it's not. But used without can be. It's def 95% safer than analogs.
Nothing to be scared of in VG, it's all natrual. Dangerous? If used with caution, it's not. But used without can be. It's def 95% safer than analogs.
If you're scared of what I posted. Just avoid using PG and use VG, problem solved
Nothing to be scared of in VG, it's all natrual. Dangerous? If used with caution, it's not. But used without can be. It's def 95% safer than analogs.
Ya i've noticed some negative symptoms to PG so I've been trying to stick with VG. Still kind of creeps me out thought and I've read a ton fromt he health and safety forum.
The only thing that scares me; mmmm the thought of going back to analogs. honestly.
Definitely helpful! and what you said about the strong/lightflavoring is spot on with what i'm experiencing.
I googled what you post about propylene glycol, and omg, why didnt you just post the rest of the sentences!
"Propylene glycol oxidizes when exposed to air and heat. When this occurs lactic acid is formed.[8][9] If not properly inhibited, this fluid can be very corrosive."
That makes you wonder if the vendors use properly inhibited PG, and if aging is a bad idea when PG is involved.
Have you tried mix some 100% PG vs 100% VG of the same flavor and see which age better? maybe the oxdiation of PG is making the flavor 'better' and in VG is not so much?
I've noticed 80% PG bottles that's been sitting for a couple weeks makes me cough. eek.
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Well, I let the BWB steep for a few days - about a week or so. So far I've only tried the RY4. Let me say, wow! It has a lot of flavor, way more than most of the other e-juice I've been using. Even a little more than the Johnson Creek Original Smoke Juice that's been my "go to" for most of the past year. Good stuff. Can't wait to sample the Applewood next.
To answer ur question on the 100% PG vs 100% VG, sorry it took me a few days to get back, as I conducted a test to check out the results.
3 days of steeping: test conducted with 1 bottle of each 100%VG and 100%PG of each of the following: Coffee Espresso, Apple, and USA Mix.
Coffee Espresso and USA Mix:
100% PG doesn't seem to "thicken" whereas 100% VG def does. 100%PG seems to take on yellow-ish appearance whereas 100%VG seems to get a more orange-ish hue to it. The flavor is [to me] the same, the TH on the PG half chokes the crap out of me (I would deem this uhhh EXTREME), the 100% VG even has a kicker of TH, but not anything like PG. Both seem to please me equally, so I dumped them together to enjoy a nice 50/50 mix going to see what happens mixing them together. I'll post back in 3 more days
Apple: There really wasn't a difference on this between the flavor and vapor production on whether it was 100%PG or 100%VG. Though, the 100%PG never changed from it's "clear" color, the 100%VG took on a yellow-ish appearance. The TH like the Espresso and USA Mix... MASSIVE killer hit with 100%PG, great TH with the 100%VG, but still nothing like PG produces. Mixed both together to make 50/50, will post back on this to see if anything changes as well.
I took a picture of my 75%VG / 25%PG Maple Syrup that I let steep for 5 days, and then made a quick FRESH mix to show everyone the difference steeping DOES make.
I steep my juices in a dark box I leave close to my window, so it stays nice and cool
(pitch black in approx 65 deg F) I open it with low light, shake daily, and put right back in box.
3 days of steeping: test conducted with 1 bottle of each 100%VG and 100%PG of each of the following: Coffee Espresso, Apple, and USA Mix.
Coffee Espresso and USA Mix:
100% PG doesn't seem to "thicken" whereas 100% VG def does. 100%PG seems to take on yellow-ish appearance whereas 100%VG seems to get a more orange-ish hue to it. The flavor is [to me] the same, the TH on the PG half chokes the crap out of me (I would deem this uhhh EXTREME), the 100% VG even has a kicker of TH, but not anything like PG. Both seem to please me equally, so I dumped them together to enjoy a nice 50/50 mix going to see what happens mixing them together. I'll post back in 3 more days
Apple: There really wasn't a difference on this between the flavor and vapor production on whether it was 100%PG or 100%VG. Though, the 100%PG never changed from it's "clear" color, the 100%VG took on a yellow-ish appearance. The TH like the Espresso and USA Mix... MASSIVE killer hit with 100%PG, great TH with the 100%VG, but still nothing like PG produces. Mixed both together to make 50/50, will post back on this to see if anything changes as well.
I took a picture of my 75%VG / 25%PG Maple Syrup that I let steep for 5 days, and then made a quick FRESH mix to show everyone the difference steeping DOES make.
I steep my juices in a dark box I leave close to my window, so it stays nice and cool
(pitch black in approx 65 deg F) I open it with low light, shake daily, and put right back in box.
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