battery protection?

[jotook24tovaip]

I have been doing a lot of reading lately and I was wondering, given the relatively small price difference, why or when, would a unprotected battery be preferred? I also (while surfing fasttech) found small protection circuits. These are for the unprotected batteries, or all batteries and are they redundant with a protected battery? Any advice for someone that likes to learn, maybe a hint how to find some old threads or posts?
I can see this becoming a hobby rather than an alternative to smoking... so many options and styles of vaping.

 

[Thin]

I'm no battery expert but I believe the lure with unprotected is that they can "throw out" a lot more power than protected. Take a Provari for example, it takes a 4.2 (or so) volt battery and somehow "upps" the power to 6 (or so) volts. Provape recommend High Drain batteries, and I believe this means they can handle a higher current drain, which somehow allows it to create higher volts.

Wait for more info tho, that's just my layman's understanding of it.

 

[jotook24tovaip]

So the vv mods use unprotected batteries regulated by the circuit in the device? Can protected batteries be used with them (vv mods)? I,m sure there's a post somewhere maybe I'll google it. I don't own one yet I just think it's interesting.

 

[bnrkwest]

There are protected batteries and there are safer chemistry batteries. Provari uses safer chemistry high drain batteries. The safer chemistry are actually safer than the protected batts if they over heat. The biggest thing vapers want to avoid is overheating a battery form a short or from a button not turning off. These batts can get really really hot in a very short time if compromised. That is the problem, not much time to react from a batt overheating, melting, exploding or venting. bnrk

 

[tearose50]

I don't know about the circuits from fasttech, but several suppliers carry "vape safe" and a couple of others.

And, yes they can be used with IMR high drain "safer chemistry" batteries. As the prothingy and some VV/VW mods have protection built into the mod itself, there is that protection as well for when a battery gets too hot.

The debate between using Protected Li-ion Batteries and IMR's is a long one. It is well documented that there are differences in how different chemistry's of batteries respond if they go wacky. I'll see if I can find the ECF reference and post a link. It's a good one for everyone to review once and awhile. I tend to trust what ECF has to say.

I prefer to use what the manufacturer recommends for that device. I tend to use protected li-ions in devices without high tech parts and the IMR's in my other mods when they have protection built in.

I also started out with AW brand batteries and usually continue to use that long time well respected brand.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/ecf-library/129569-rechargeable-batteries.html

 

[Baditude]

We use two types of batteries in our APVs. Protected Li-Ion and safer-chemistry/high-drain/IMR Li-Mn batteries.

Li-Ion protected batteries have a voltatile chemistry that do not like heat or to be over-heated by excessive use, so they require protective circuitry to be added to their construction. Using a Vape Safe or Two Cent protective fuse adds an additional layer of safety to a mechanical mod.

Li-Mn IMR batteries use a safer chemistry that are not as volatile, therefore do not require the same protective circuits. They have high drain capabilities, so are used in APVs that utilize boost circuits in their processor to accomplish variable voltage.

You can use IMR batteries in both mechanical and variable voltage APVs. You should not use protected batteries in variable voltage APV's for a couple of reasons. Some of the regulated APV's protective circuitry may see the protected circuits on a protected battery as a short, and refuse to fire. They also do not have the high drain capability for a regulated APV to use their boost circuits.

I use AW IMR batteries in both my mechanical and regulated APVs. I personally believe they are a safer battery than the Li-Ion batteries despite their primitive protective circuits.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...4690-protected-batteries-vs-imr-safety-5.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...9007-warning-rechargeable-batteries-apvs.html

Short circuit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mechanical Mod Proper Usage Guide

Batteries : Vape Safe Mod Fuse 2

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-battery-failure-imr-18650-a.html#post3265928

 

[Ronald3638]

Let me know if my assumptions are wrong but if I understand it correctly LiPo is the safest chemistry followed by IMR and finally ICR.
I use LiPo batteries for RC and I have seen what happens when they are compromised.

Based on this I have come up with the following analogy for comparing these three chemistry's.

IMR is safer than ICR in the same way that a swarm of angry honey bees is safer than a swarm of angry hornets.
LiPo is safer than IMR in the same way that wasps are safer than a swarm of honey bees.

Hornets can sting and sting again where as each honey bee only stings once.
Honey bees will swarm and give you many stings but wasps usually don't attack in swarms but they can still sting many times.

Is this close?

 

[Baditude]

I didn't follow your insect anology, so I won't comment on how close bees/wasps/hornets compare to batteries.

I haven't studied up on the LiPo batteries. I do know that with IMR batteries, they use a safer, less volatile, more forgiving chemistry than Li Ion chemistry.

Li Ion are recognized to be so volatile and unstable when stressed that they require protective circuits to use. They vent flames and have the potential to explode when in thermal runaway. Despite their longer mAh capacity, they are no longer recommended for almost any application for mod use. The ECF battery guru's have determined that IMR is the safest battery for mods for all applications, over LiIon protected batteries. http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/ecf-library/129569-rechargeable-batteries.html

This is a quote from the above link:

"We now advise that Li-Mn or top-quality Li-FePo4 rechargeables are used in APVs, in preference to rechargeable Li-ions. We suggest the best option, in order, is:

1. AW IMR Li-Mn rechargeables.
2. Panasonic hybrid cells. (Sony spinel cells are new on the market at the date of edit [2013-09-01] and it is likely they will also prove acceptable, they are an Li-Mn type). You must ensure that Panasonic and Sony cells are sourced from an authorised distributor, as they will become extensively counterfeited.
3. AW Li-FePo4 rechargeables [Li-FePo4's mostly NEED A SPECIAL CHARGER]. Note that these batteries are mostly 3 volt nominal so the system voltage will be lower than normal. They are the best choice for stacking as long as they are not counterfeits.
4. Good quality (such as AW or Pila) protected Li-ion rechargeables.
5. Branded protected Li-ions come next - such as *fire Li-ion rechargeables (for *, insert Trust / Sure / Ultra-).
6. The least-preferable option is a generic protected Li-ion.
7. Unprotected rechargeable Li-ion cells should not be used.
8. Standard cells (non-rechargeable) MUST NOT be used."

 

[Thrasher]

the main problem is most protected batteries do not have a high drain rate which most regulated mods need to work correctly to create 4v at 3 amps from a battery with a 3.7v charge left will use upwards of around 6 amps to creat that 4 volt setting.

many times the higher amp discharge will itself trigger the protective circuit in protected batteries, even in a mechanical, as the resistance drops the current rises go to low and the battery will just shut down.


Directly from the engineers at provape explaining exactly why we use high drain (applies to any VV/VW mod):
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/provape/334831-technical-why-high-drain-batteries.html

safe chemistry batteries are preferred (as is a fuse for added security) in a mech mod but protected batteries can be used as long as you stay within the amp limit of the battery and protection circuit. as the amp draw on a mech is exactly what the coil is pulling Vs the extra amp draw on a regulated mod.

and yes the fuse is redundant when using a protected battery and is not required..

 

[Jackstraw]

Great info guys. Good explanations and links.
Thanks