Class at Hospital - "Lithium battery in ecigarettes release carcinogenics." Help me respond to this?

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peraspera

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You should have asked her if she had read it, because she obviously has not. Maybe email her back and ask her which paragraph is the important bit, because there's nothing that suggests that a normally operating battery is dangerous to the user. The warnings are about incorrectly using batteries and what can happen.

This kind of pseudo science is sickening, and to find it coming from a hospital... I can't find the words it makes me so mad.

The battery university is a great site - I refer people to it all the time for matters of charging and correct handling. I've been all over that site over the last 10 years and it says nothing about health dangers of lithium batteries in the way the hospital is using it. Isidor Buchmann is a clever man and an electrical engineer, but he's not a chemist or a health care professional. I suspect he would be horrified to know that someone was using the information his website to justify completely unrelated claims of "Oooh look! batteries are dangerous".

I never recalled Battery University making any professional claims for their information even within the confines of their own engineering lane so I did a quick check. The link for Battery University's Disclaimer and Copyright link is smack dab on the front page. Click on it and it reads (bolding mine):

Disclaimer
While every effort was made to ensure that the information contained in this publication is accurate, Cadex does not warrant or guarantee the accuracy and completeness of the information published herein, neither does Cadex take responsibility for any errors, omission or damages arising from this information. The graphs and tables included are for illustration of typical battery applications and are not intended as constructional information. This work is published with the understanding that Cadex is providing useful information, but is not attempting to render engineering or other professional services. If such services are required, the assistance of an appropriate professional should be sought.


I would say that pretty much confirms that the person responsible for this travesty knows very well that they are out of legitimate ammo and are now clutching wildly at straws. It seems to me that it might be prudent to tread very carefully with someone that desperate.
 
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BigBen2k

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I don't mean to be redundant if this has already been dealt with, but this point of concern is irrelevant. The battery itself inside an auto e-cig is completely sealed as is any other Li-On battery. The air vent in an auto battery allows air to flow across the sensor in order to turn it on. There is nothing more "open" or exposed to the user about the battery itself in an auto than there is in a manual eGo or a "bare" APV type replaceable battery.
Yes, that was my point :) as others have verified.
 

SyncVaper

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Hmm... Perhaps even if it's true, then we should start asking manufacturers to design a cable that allows user to utilize the various 1001 battery packs out there from China!!

imagine having a 20000mah battery pack in your backpack or pouch with a variable cable attached to a cartomizer!

Then, throw it back to them if their claims of such fumes can travel up a 1metre cable.. ;)
 

SyncVaper

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Actually, I wonder too... are there any mods out there currently that enables a standard battery pack to be used instead? You know, those 1001 varieties of it from China..

And then a cable with the male head of a standard USB for insertion into the battery pack, and a female head that is designed to fit into whatever atomizer/cartomizer/clearomizer threads out there?
 

fabricator4

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Actually, I wonder too... are there any mods out there currently that enables a standard battery pack to be used instead? You know, those 1001 varieties of it from China..

And then a cable with the male head of a standard USB for insertion into the battery pack, and a female head that is designed to fit into whatever atomizer/cartomizer/clearomizer threads out there?

I think the Life Saber Vaporisor (LSV) runs off mains only - no battery required. Fine for home base, not so convenient for out and about.
 

fabricator4

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I would say that pretty much confirms that the person responsible for this travesty knows very well that they are out of legitimate ammo and are now clutching wildly at straws. It seems to me that it might be prudent to tread very carefully with someone that desperate.

Even without the disclaimer they are attributing information to that site that just isn't there. There's only one type of science worse than wishful thinking, and that is desperately clutching at straws and making it up. Abhorrent... and a hospital!!!!

I would forget my usual reserve and respect for the medical profession if I had the person responsible in front of me because I don't have a job riding on the outcome of the conversion. :mad:
 

fabricator4

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Oh, and play them at their own game, but site proper sources. Traditional forms of NRT contain nitrosamine, a serious carcinogenic compound.

Presence of the Carcinogen N

Are they telling everyone that NRT products cause cancer? The sky is falling!

Ask them where harm reduction fits into all of this.
 

SyncVaper

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Not sure about regular battery pack but I saw a mod running on 4 nihm rechargeable batteries.

Ah... The exact mod that I'm thinking of.. imagining slapping on a 20,000mah battery and not having to worry about battery life. at the same time, doubling up as a portable charger for my phone, and Bluetooth headset too! :)

And plugging it into my laptop USB port while watching youtube out there.. :D
 
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Monkey7

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About the article I was given from:
Lithium-ion Safety Concerns – Battery University

Could this portion possibly be what they're misconstruing?

"In addition to the mechanical safeguards, the electronic protection circuit external to the cells opens a solid-state switch if the charge voltage of any cell reaches 4.30V. A fuse cuts the current flow if the skin temperature of the cell approaches 90°C (194°F). To prevent the battery from over-discharging, the control circuit cuts off the current path at about 2.50V/cell."

Are they talking about the same volts as a PV lithium battery? (or are they full of it?) My vv goes up to 5v, thank you very much.... and obviously is not shutting off at 2.5v. What?

Run, do not walk, to CASAA: CASAA - The Consumer Advocates for Smoke-free Alternatives Association

They deal constantly with the misinformation lunacy going on now and they're good at it. I'm a member but haven't been around long. I'm getting that "out my league" feeling about here. I'm no experienced activist (but I'm a fast learner :) )

I'll call CASAA when I'm off Tuesday. :thumb:

If anyone knows of a better way to reach them other than their Contact form (like an email address, so I can send attachments), please let me know.

I'm also going to call the instructor myself, not in my professional capacity or by name, rather, just a "public query." (I'm half tempted to tape the call if it's legal (?) to give to CASAA).

Nothing at a hospital occurs in a vacuum. If ours is proposing this danger, there must be others.
 
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fabricator4

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About the article I was given from:
Lithium-ion Safety Concerns – Battery University

Could this portion possibly be what they're misconstruing?

"In addition to the mechanical safeguards, the electronic protection circuit external to the cells opens a solid-state switch if the charge voltage of any cell reaches 4.30V. A fuse cuts the current flow if the skin temperature of the cell approaches 90°C (194°F). To prevent the battery from over-discharging, the control circuit cuts off the current path at about 2.50V/cell."

No, they're full of it.

Are they talking about the same volts as a PV lithium battery? (or are they full of it?) My vv goes up to 5v, thank you very much.... and obviously is not shutting off at 2.5v. What?

It's two different things. One is the actual battery voltage and the other is the regulated output. These devices can take 3.7 volts or whatever the battery is providing and change it to 5 or 6 volts or whatever your mod circuitry is capable off. There's many way of doing this that I won't go into, but it is different to actual battery voltage. In actual fact the mod circuitry will turn off when the battery voltage gets down to (usually) 3.2 or 3.3 volts. This is to prevent excessve damage to the battery. You can actually improve battery life by a great deal by not always letting it get to that point and putting your battery on charge when it gets down to no less than 3.5 volts whever possible.

I'll call CASAA when I'm off Tuesday. :thumb:

Good on you! It's great that you are unwilling to let Mrs Grundy ruin it for everyone else. This kind of nonsense needs to be corrected, and I hope that CASAA take things very seriously indeed.
 

Spazmelda

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You mean Isador Buchmann? Yes, that's actually not a bad idea. As I said he's not a chemist, but since it's his site they are using to misquote, it might be appropriate to get him to respond.

How about it? Any chance of sending the original claims to him and asking for a response?

Sorry, yes. That's what I meant. I think autocorrect changed his name for me.
 

mkbilbo

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About the article I was given from:
Lithium-ion Safety Concerns – Battery University

Could this portion possibly be what they're misconstruing?

"In addition to the mechanical safeguards, the electronic protection circuit external to the cells opens a solid-state switch if the charge voltage of any cell reaches 4.30V. A fuse cuts the current flow if the skin temperature of the cell approaches 90°C (194°F). To prevent the battery from over-discharging, the control circuit cuts off the current path at about 2.50V/cell."

Are they talking about the same volts as a PV lithium battery? (or are they full of it?) My vv goes up to 5v, thank you very much.... and obviously is not shutting off at 2.5v. What?

Actually, the voltage of the battery and what the PV can put out aren't the same thing, as fabricator4 points out. Voltage regulators change the battery output to what's needed or desired (within the laws of physics of course :) ). Batteries are chemical beasties and the voltage any kind of cell can produce depends on the chemistry in ways which remind me I only took one year of chemistry in college and no more. :)

If you care, you can check the chart about halfway down here: Lithium-based Batteries Information. You don't have to "study" it or anything, just notice the voltages listed have to do with the chemistry (LiMn2O4 puts out 3.8 volts and charges at 4.2 etc.). That's just true in general of the battery. X chemistry produces Y voltage per cell. I've never bothered to look but I'm sure there are chemical type reasons the common battery we stick in our TV remotes is always multiples of 1.5 volts (1.5, 3.0, 6.0, 9.0... all multiples of 1.5 and, yeah, there are 4.5 volt batteries out there, they're just not common... there may be 7.5 and 10.5 for that matter).

And, of course, because of physics and chemistry and all, integrated circuits that run all our fancy widgets often prefer 5 volts. So when I putz around with "widgets", I more likely than not have 9 volt batteries lying around but need 5 volts. So I have a batch of cheap voltage regulator chips that change the 9 to 5. This kind of thing is so common in the electronics world, it's literally down to dirt cheap chips that will change X voltage to Y and you don't "build" anything. You buy the regulators you want, slap 'em in the circuit.

On top of that, there are the "variable" regulators. Of which, you have one. Or a few. I have three. They're called "Joyetech Twist batteries". :) I spin a knob and the regulator says, "ah, he wants 4 volts". And the battery being a 3.6 or 3.8 (lithium ions seem to cluster around 3.7 and are often just marked 3.7v) isn't a problem. An output higher than the battery is producing will run through the charge faster but I like my vape warm and I don't care I'm having to recharge a little more often.

But the output of the PV does not have to be exactly the input of the battery. There are limits (laws of physics and all) but there is wiggle room.

The discussion you quote above, though, applies in general to lithium ions. Including to the cell phone your supervisor may well have up against her head on a regular basis. I would suggest donning a mask when she talks on her phone and explaining, when asked, "You said lithium ion batteries produce carcinogens" but, there again, we see why Mark does not play well with others.

(Most of my professional life, I've been an independent contractor and "work at home" type. I just do not do well in an office environment. :p)

Anyway. Now standardized circuitry keeps the batteries in check. Which is what they're talking about there. Notice this bit:

A fuse cuts the current flow if the skin temperature of the cell approaches 90°C (194°F). To prevent the battery from over-discharging, the control circuit cuts off the current path at about 2.50V/cell."

In the early days (almost twenty years ago), there were some dramatic failures of lithium ions. Laptops catching fire for instance. Big, dramatic recalls (though the failure rate was about one in 200,000 which is pretty low but, still, people were rattled over the idea of something meant to be in their laps bursting into flames... and yeah, that's a disturbing thought :) ). Any battery that is discharging too fast will heat up. "Dead short" a battery from your TV remote, it'll heat. Might even burn you. I've almost got burnt from plain old 9 volt batteries when I've slipped and shorted one.

So there are fuses built into these batteries now that cut the power if the battery's temp gets too high. In fact, so much work has gone into making them safe, they're safer than the one in your car. Lead acids are actually very dangerous batteries. I'll change my own car battery (and mom's) but I have heavy gloves and eye protection on. I'll trust a lithium ion over a lead acid any day.

(Car batteries actually produce amperage high enough to stop your heart. My PV can't do that.)

But, yes, your battery has a high voltage limit and low voltage limit. And your PV has circuitry to enforce that. We've been doing this a while and know these batteries pretty well. They're very, very safe.

In fact, your health and life are at far greater risk driving to work. 20 years of lithium ions, I can't think of a single death caused by one. Cars? Those things have killed around a million people in the same period...
 

Scott Ballentine

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About the article I was given from:
Lithium-ion Safety Concerns – Battery University

Could this portion possibly be what they're misconstruing?

"In addition to the mechanical safeguards, the electronic protection circuit external to the cells opens a solid-state switch if the charge voltage of any cell reaches 4.30V. A fuse cuts the current flow if the skin temperature of the cell approaches 90°C (194°F). To prevent the battery from over-discharging, the control circuit cuts off the current path at about 2.50V/cell."

Are they talking about the same volts as a PV lithium battery? (or are they full of it?) My vv goes up to 5v, thank you very much.... and obviously is not shutting off at 2.5v. What?



I'll call CASAA when I'm off Tuesday. :thumb:

If anyone knows of a better way to reach them other than their Contact form (like an email address, so I can send attachments), please let me know.

I'm also going to call the instructor myself, not in my professional capacity or by name, rather, just a "public query." (I'm half tempted to tape the call if it's legal (?) to give to CASAA).

Nothing at a hospital occurs in a vacuum. If ours is proposing this danger, there must be others.

I suggest joining the CASAA facebook page and asking for an officer to contact you regarding an active propaganda campaign in your hospital based on false battery safety information. - you will get a pretty fast response . If you don't feel comfortable doing that - PM me your contact info and relevant information and I will get it to someone.
 

AgentAnia

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Monkey, you can contact CASAA from their "contact us" page, but also if you go to the Bd. of Directors page (CASAA Board of Directors), they've listed email addresses for individual board members. (Since it's a web page accessible to the public, I'm assuming it's okay to show it here.) Also, you might consider starting a "help me" thread on the CASAA forum here on ECF. I know several Board members monitor that forum daily.

When the discussion first raised the option of asking CASAA to get involved, I immediately thought of Carl Phillips, CASAA's science director, as a person who might carry weight with medical professionals. (He definitely can "talk the talk," and doesn't put up with BS.) Don't know whether he has the time or inclination to get involved but it may be worth a shot.

Buchmann is another good option. I'm sure he would *not* like knowing the information from his site was being perverted and misapplied.

I'm sorry you didn't get better results from your meeting yesterday. My feeling from all you and other posters here have said and reading between the lines is that this is probably ANTZ from outside playing the hospital politics game as they do to further their nationwide agenda. You're in a position, if you care to, to collect information on your hospital's situation and pass it on to any "big guns" like CASAA that can then take it on and deal with it as part of the bigger picture.

I *so* admire you for what you've done and are doing! And needless to say, any help I can give you is herewith offered. Paraphrasing Martha, "It's a good fight!"
 

AgentAnia

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Monkey7 said:
I'm also going to call the instructor myself, not in my professional capacity or by name, rather, just a "public query." (I'm half tempted to tape the call if it's legal (?) to give to CASAA).

AgentAnia's Paranoid Reaction (not wearing my tinfoil hat, but it's always close at hand...): Two words: Caller ID. Not saying this is some nationwide conspiracy, but if you do decide to call the instructor, if I were you, I'd call from someone else's phone, someone not connected with the hospital.

Actually, what I'd do first is to gather as much publicly available information as I could on the instructor, what organization he/she is affiliated with, what other instructional programs they offer, and where their funding comes from.
 
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