Cleaning with isopropyl alcohol

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candre23

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Isopropyl alcohol is not dangerous at the minuscule quantities we're talking about here. If you soak or rinse your atty with it, then blow it out and let it dry for a few minutes, the amount left in the wick is less than a drop. You'd inhale more vapor during the cleaning process than you'd get from the using the atty after cleaning.
 

Dillan

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Why would PGA/Ethanol have any advantage over isopropyl? The ethanol that you buy is denatured, so it will kill you to drink (why drinking any rubbing alcohol is a bad idea).

Hydrogen Peroxide would be by far the safest of the bunch. Its chemical formula is H2O2, water is H2O so all it is, is pure water with an extra oxygen molecule on it. All that will give off if heated is oxygen, water and a small amount of hydrogen gas. With oxygen and hydrogen making up a good percentage of what air is, its a really safe option because we are breathing it anyhow.

H2O2 is extremely, sometimes violently, reactive. The atoms aren't as important as the arrangement. Hydrogen peroxide is arranged as H-O--O-H - the O-O bond is quite weak, and is "stable" in water only because the reaction with water produces hydrogen peroxide - it can't get anywhere. But you give that anything else to react with, and you'll end up with lots and lots of OH - which is either going to be a free radical, or a very powerful base - and neither of those are good news.

Ethanol, if accidentally ingested in small amounts, will at worst make you a little buzzed. You'd have to consume more than the entire atty's volume worth to get even a lightweight "drunk." Much less dead.

The "denatured" part of denatured ethanol usually just makes you ill, not dead - the idea being to make its use as a substitute to paying the alcohol tax very unpleasant. I wouldn't recommend drinking it, of course, but if your alternatives were denatured ethanol or hydrogen peroxide, I'd take the ethanol every time.

I'd take the peroxide, however, before I'd try the isopropyl or methyl alcohol - those ones are strictly, full-stop, poison.

EDIT: That said, yes, isopropyl alcohol is not so poisonous that they'd kill you if you make even a half-assed attempt at drying it out before using it. Still, ethanol is safer than isopropyl.
 

Tachion

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H2O2 is extremely, sometimes violently, reactive.
The "denatured" part of denatured ethanol usually just makes you ill, not dead - the idea being to make its use as a substitute to paying the alcohol tax very unpleasant. I wouldn't recommend drinking it, of course, but if your alternatives were denatured ethanol or hydrogen peroxide, I'd take the ethanol every time.

That depends on what the denaturing agent is. Sometimes they use acetone, which is not terribly dangerous, and sometimes they use benzene, which is quite unhealthy and dangerous.

I'd prefer pure isopropyl over denatured ethanol any day. As someone pointed out, isporopanol isn't terribly dangerous to begin with, especially considering the minute amounts we're talking about here. The denaturing agents, on the other hand...
 

Dkrom68

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Word to the wise dont use it for cleaning the vapor from residuals left over are no good for you read sattecs thread on cleaning atties and whats left over after mega soaks and stuff. Its your health your jeaprodizing if you dont care go for it but not worth the risk as far as im concerned. Atties are throw away components buy a new one.
Im not trying to defend cleaning attys with isopropyl, but your post makes it seem like residual isopropyl will harm you.
The fact is- you have to ingest large residual amounts, and this is not even possible because the alcohol evaporates so rapidly- much, much faster than water. Its not much more poisonous than regular ethanol alcohol- which we drink quite a lot of.

I clean food handling equipment all day with 98% isopropyl, and its great because all of it evaporates off of any surface within seconds. I've inhaled clouds of its evaporated gas a few times with no ill effects other than feeling a lack of oxygen.
But its great because as long as you blow on it a tiny bit it evaporates almost instantly.

Its probably as dangerous to ingest in moderate amounts as it is to ingest nicotine laced PG in moderate amounts.

While i've cleaned attys with it a couple of times, I didnt find it was particularly good at dissolving the dried gunk.
 

Can_supplier

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There might be no residual taste but there are residual chemicals left on the atty

A chemical like alcohol doesn’t leave a residue its either there, it wet and its there, or it’s dry and its not. That’s why you can use it to clean glass and electronics where you do not want a film. Any residue is going to be from the crap you were trying to clean out in the 1st place.

The whole point is moot. Listen to the lab rat, me. I have clean many an atty in isopropyl and I'm still here to tell my story.
 
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Can_supplier

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H2O2 is extremely, sometimes violently, reactive. The atoms aren't as important as the arrangement. Hydrogen peroxide is arranged as H-O--O-H - the O-O bond is quite weak, and is "stable" in water only because the reaction with water produces hydrogen peroxide - it can't get anywhere. But you give that anything else to react with, and you'll end up with lots and lots of OH - which is either going to be a free radical, or a very powerful base - and neither of those are good news..

Yes and if you mix it with diesel fuel and fertilizer...

You pour the stuff on you when you have an open cut. How dangerous can that be?

I admin my chemistry is long since forgotten, but I do remember it takes two to tango. So you have the free radical floating around, what is it going to bond with that will cause any concern?

Also if you have an old bottle of hydrogen peroxide sitting around that has sat for a long time, when you go to use it "where there's trouble it will bubble" just doesn't happen, cause it has turned to water, not some nasty base that is going to eat your had off.
 
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Dillan

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Well let's break this down;

1) You pour the stuff on you when you have an open cut - ever think about why? The prime reason is to kill bacteria. Most things that kill bacteria also kill us. Booze is no exception there, actually - we just have a decent tolerance to that particular poison, compared to some other ones, but get enough drinks in you, and you can OD on alcohol - at a level about 6 times higher than being legally 'drunk' (0.5% blood alcohol or so).

If stuff kills one kind of life form, it's likely to also be dangerous or deadly to others.

2) Free radicals react with whatever is available, since it's the single most unstable arrangement of molecules there is. Incidentally, it's the free radicals in tobacco smoke which are though to be the cause of much of the cancers - we call it all "tar" but it's a mixture of lots of benzene rings and lots of free radical chains. The reason this is dangerous is because it leads to a chain reaction.

A radical, once formed, can only be "captured" in one of two ways - reaction with another radical (they mutually stabilize each other), or reaction with a compound which forms a relatively stable radical (transition metals such as iron are very good at this; electrons in a sheet of metal are so spread out that it makes almost no difference if the total number of them is even or odd)

The more common fate of a radical is for it to attack the first molecule it bumps into, and steal an electron away. The victim is now a radical itself, and it goes on to do the same thing to the next molecule it bumps into, et cetera. When I say "steal an electron", I mean that literally. If it takes a "free" electron, it creates a radical version of the molecule it attacks - but it can also steal a bonding electron - if it's from a single-bond, the attacked molecule is broken into two molecules; if it's from a double-bond (or higher), you've changed the bond order. Sometimes, the radical forcibly bonds itself to its victim, causing a different piece to be ejected. In any of these cases, you have changed the nature of the molecules, perhaps unimportantly, perhaps drastically.

The "trouble = bubble" reaction is mainly one of the peroxide attacking anything that's not water. Ultimately, O2 and/or H2 gasses may be produced by the multitude of reactions going on, but that's because H2O2 reacts with almost everything, and does so in so many different ways - radical chemistry, acid-base chemistry, straight-up oxidation, straight-up substitution. The concern isn't the bubbles - the gasses aren't dangerous in the quantities produced - but in what's leftover - lots of OH groups attached where they shouldn't be, and possible scrambling of other parts.

The concern about what's left over depends entirely on what you started with. When you pour it on your skin, well, you kill off a bunch of bacteria, you kill off some of your own skin cells (but as they were already damaged, that's no great loss), and your body knows what to do with dead bacteria and dead skin cells - digest em and make new skin. In the 5% concentration we use, it's not deadly on the skin - especially since skin is a very poor absorber of chemicals (its biological purpose, in fact, is to keep outside chemicals outside, and it's very good at that). The lungs, on the other hand, aren't quite as good at keeping out corrosive chemicals - they're meant for filtration of air, not being a physical barrier. So when you breathe in something that's bad, it's more likely to cause harm, than when you merely touch something that's bad. Incomplete H2O2 reactions, and whatever soup the H2O2 made, would be why peroxide would be a good choice to disinfect, but a bad choice to inhale.

3) That leads to the last one - why does hydrogen peroxide go bad. There are a couple degradation pathways I can think of that would cause this. The most likely is the self-reaction side chains.

Whenever a chemist says something like "X plus Y makes Z" they're not necessarily lying, but they're usually not telling the whole story either. The X+Y->Z reaction is probably the most important, or the strongest (sometimes those are not the same thing), but it's not the only possibility. The rarer possibilities are left unmentioned for short time scales, because, well, they're rare. But over a long period of time, their effects can add up.

I suspect there's a relatively rare H2O2 + H2O2 -> O2 + H2O + H2O type reaction going on. I say it's relatively rare, because it's got to be a multi-step reaction, and your typical bottle of Hydrogen Peroxide is, what, 5% peroxide (and 95% water), so the odds of two peroxides hitting each other is about 1 in 20. The odds of them doing it the right way are higher. But if one peroxide steals a proton from another peroxide, it should release a water molecule shortly after, leaving an unstable HOO group, and an OH group - and the problem there is, one of the two has to have a formal positive charge (Oxygen almost always carries a negative charge, when charged), so this would be a disfavored reaction pathway If the OOH holds the positive charge, however, you'd release O2, and form an H3O+ ion, which IS stable in water (it's the main unit of acidity).

I suspect that pathway is the most likely fate of old peroxide bottles.


In summary, though, I'd use a layman's analogy here; alcohol is a butler who knows how to kill. It's good at cleaning up stuff, both living and non-living - but in highly pure levels, it cleans "too well" and kills - which is good for what we use it for (other than its recreational use, naturally). Peroxide is more like a hitman - it's absolutely lethal to bacteria, but it's not all that great at cleaning up - no better than water, really, at cleaning. (That said, water itself is an excellent solvent, otherwise life could not exist - but when we "clean" we're usually dealing with stuff that water is bad at handling, because water has already dealt with the stuff it's good at)
 

Can_supplier

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Well let's break this down;

1) You pour the stuff on you when you have an open cut - ever think about why? The prime reason is to kill bacteria. Most things that kill bacteria also kill us.

One example of stuff that kills bacteria but doesn't kill US is, oxygen. Oxygen kills anaerobic bacteria. My assumption was (and you know what assume spells so I could be wrong) that is was the oxygen released from the HP that killed the bacteria.

I'm not sure how we got on bacteria anyhow. I'd don't know about your atty but on my bacteria is not a concern. PG is an atiseptic anyhow. I would be looking for for a solvent to clean that atty.

With HP's reaction, there is a mechanical cleaning action created. That would be one reason I would consider using it.

As for the danger of it.. Here is a list of uses for it. One is mouth wash..

The Many Uses of Hydrogen Peroxide-Truth! Fiction! & Unproven!
 
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