Clone vs Authentic need your help

[tj99959]

If it's junk it's junk. Doesn't matter if it's original or a clone .......... junk is still junk. There are as many poorly made originals as there are clones. So you still need to do your homework regardless of if you are looking for an original or a clone.

My Caravela clone is every bit as nice a mod as any original. My original DX from HOV is nothing more than an over priced paperweight.

Pedro doesn't make the Caravela anymore. So if you want one it will be a clone, or you will buy it from a flipper. The one thing I dislike more than clones is a flipper!

 

[SingedVapor]

Let's not turn this into a clone vs authentic you guys the op wanted to know about the manhattan specifically

Amerivape had been sketchy very early on. As far as the clone goes there are rumors that the clone is the real thing being sold by the actual Chinese manufacture after Amerivape stopped paying up. So take that with a grain of salt

 

[Bunnykiller]

if you can afford the original go for it.... but when you happen to experience a clone of what you bought and cant see any difference in the function, vape delivery, etc you can still be happy that you have an original even tho the clone was just as good and about 1/5 the price....

 

[dr g]

Do you think it's odd that 90% of high end tubes cost $190-$220? You mean to tell me that somehow Filipino, American, Greek, German or whatever country has the exact production cost? No, it's the market price. A Filipino mod should be a fraction of the cost of an American made mod, German should be just a bit higher cost than American made, depending on exchange rate.

Perhaps you don't understand how markets work ... if no one was paying that price for the mod, the price wouldn't hold. But the fact that people can and do charge that much is not an excuse for buying infringing products. You don't have any inherent right to own a product that is out of your price range.

There are options made by original makers far below that price point, some in the USA.

It's a metal tube. If the Chinese can replicate exact counterfeit metal tubes for $20 retail, then $200 metal tubes are not correctly priced.

China has repeatedly been guilty of international trade violations including dumping. That's effectively what they are doing in the vape market and it's what I mean when I say the Chinese price doesn't represent the correct price.

The sending money overseas argument is weak. People will fight for unions and $15/hr minimum wage then complain because manufacturers are forced to move to third world countries because they cannot complete. It's way more complicated than the buy American moniker.

And why can't they compete? Because people buy cheap Chinese goods which forces jobs overseas and wages to go lower, then people can only afford cheap chinese goods, which forces jobs overseas and wages to go lower, then people can only afford ... It's one thing for this dynamic to happen within a legal bounds, but when it happens in violation of IP rights, there's no excuse.

 

[imsoenthused]

Perhaps you don't understand how markets work ... if no one was paying that price for the mod, the price wouldn't hold. But the fact that people can and do charge that much is not an excuse for buying infringing products. You don't have any inherent right to own a product that is out of your price range.

There are options made by original makers far below that price point, some in the USA.



China has repeatedly been guilty of international trade violations including dumping. That's effectively what they are doing in the vape market and it's what I mean when I say the Chinese price doesn't represent the correct price.



And why can't they compete? Because people buy cheap Chinese goods which forces jobs overseas and wages to go lower, then people can only afford cheap chinese goods, which forces jobs overseas and wages to go lower, then people can only afford ... It's one thing for this dynamic to happen within a legal bounds, but when it happens in violation of IP rights, there's no excuse.

They're actively choosing to make more money per unit by keeping prices high and adding value of exclusivity and scarcity rather than pricing them more reasonably and selling more of them. Your argument makes it sound like the producers of authentic mods aren't just as responsible for the current state of affairs as the consumer, and I'd have to disagree with you. The sorry selection of authentic mods at a reasonable price point has as much to do with their business practices as consumer spending and China's notorious attitude towards IP rights. The few cheaper authentics of reasonable quality do little more than highlight the huge sucking vacuum in the market that China is currently filling with counterfeits.

 

[Chelonian]

Sounds to me like you dont have a problem.
If authentic nakers are happy selling them at current prices, what is actually your issue?

 

[tj99959]

I worked for Porsche for quite a few years. Because of demand they reached a point where they had two options. They could build a new plant so that they could meet the demand, or they could raise the price so that demand equaled production. The price of a new Porsche tripled practically overnight.

 

[dr g]

They're actively choosing to make more money per unit by keeping prices high and adding value of exclusivity and scarcity rather than pricing them more reasonably and selling more of them. Your argument makes it sound like the producers of authentic mods aren't just as responsible for the current state of affairs as the consumer, and I'd have to disagree with you. The sorry selection of authentic mods at a reasonable price point has as much to do with their business practices as consumer spending and China's notorious attitude towards IP rights. The few cheaper authentics of reasonable quality do little more than highlight the huge sucking vacuum in the market that China is currently filling with counterfeits.

Every market has a demand of "something for nothing" ... that doesn't justify it. Makers aren't trying to keep prices high, that's a myth. Demand is keeping prices high. Smaller shops may or may not want to expand, going beyond a one-man, family, or family-and-friends operation is a commitment, one which the fickle vaping community (and regulatory picture) may not warrant.

But really, I don't believe clones keep prices down anyway. A clone will cost more than an equivalently competing non-clone product. A clone represents added value to the maker, that's why they do it.

I worked for Porsche for quite a few years. Because of demand they reached a point where they had two options. They could build a new plant so that they could meet the demand, or they could raise the price so that demand equaled production. The price of a new Porsche tripled practically overnight.

This is the same production dilemma, it's not necessarily raising the prices to create exclusivity, it's whether expanding capacity makes sense in the business model. Just because it doesn't, doesn't mean that it's okay for someone to make a ripoff Porsche and start selling it. People are free to compete on their own merits, but not steal others'.

 

[Alien Traveler]

This is the same production dilemma, it's not necessarily raising the prices to create exclusivity, it's whether expanding capacity makes sense in the business model. Just because it doesn't, doesn't mean that it's okay for someone to make a ripoff Porsche and start selling it. People are free to compete on their own merits, but not steal others'.

It’s rather laughable to compare battery tube with Porsche.
There is a very special way to earn money by developing a luxury brand. You can buy Louis Vuitton handbag for $3000, and you can buy a very similarly looking handbag with the same functionality for $30. Why people buying Louis Vuitton bags? Because it is luxury, because they are awed and can say “Wow, real Louis Vuitton!!!” Of course Louis Vuitton can increase manufacture of these bags by tenfold, but they never can find enough buyers ready to spend $3000 for all these bags. So, they just keep prices high and collect money. The same with $200 battery tubes. If somebody wants to spend money – they are welcome. Thanks Chinese, we can buy battery tubes with the same functionality for much less.

I am sorry for economy which can survive only on luxury goods.

 

[bluecat]

The questions is not whether you would notice anything but whether you want to reward innovation and originality, or reward infringement and third world economics.

Throwing a logo on a tube is not innovation. It seems some of us have a different definition of innovation. My daughter came home how with a new pair of shoes of the same make as a pair she bought last week. She said daddy aren't they cute. I said "They look just like the pair you bought last week. She said nuh uh... they have a round buckle.

 

[imsoenthused]

People are paying for clones. Many of those people would be perfectly happy with the device if it lacked any logos or styling details found on the originals. The problem isn't just straight up price. If a Chinese company can copy something and produce it with good quality, in some cases better than the original, and sell it at a profit for $25-$45, the question in my mind becomes "how much more is the original actually costing them to make to justify their higher price?" If you want to charge me more because your production expenses are higher due to labor costs, build quality, or materials used, well that to me is reasonable, but only up to a point. I'd gladly pay $40 for something I could get a good quality counterfeit of at $20 just to support the designer and buy American, I'd go up to $75 if reviewers said the original was of superior quality, but if you slap a $200 price tag on it I will buy that $20 copy and walk away without a qualm. The price wouldn't be a joke if the clone didn't exist, but once it does the "because I said so" method of pricing stops holding much weight.

 

[Alien Traveler]

What do you consider "priced correctly"? Western made mods will always price out higher due to the higher costs of labor and running a business -- these make up the majority of the cost of making a mod. In a larger, more expensive item, such as a rifle, labor is a lower proportion of the cost. Then there are economies of scale, plus effective taxpayer subsidy for any company that is supplying arms under government contracts. And some might argue whether any $500 firearm is "precisely machined."

Be careful not to equate China market prices with fair market prices. They are not. Buying Chinese copies instead of US products sends our economy overseas, bit by bit.

Protectionism will not save economy. If somebody can manufacture something cheaper than you do – you are out of business. Period.

 

[dr g]

People are paying for clones. Many of those people would be perfectly happy with the device if it lacked any logos or styling details found on the originals. The problem isn't just straight up price. If a Chinese company can copy something and produce it with good quality, in some cases better than the original, and sell it at a profit for $25-$45, the question in my mind becomes "how much more is the original actually costing them to make to justify their higher price?" If you want to charge me more because your production expenses are higher due to labor costs, build quality, or materials used, well that to me is reasonable, but only up to a point. I'd gladly pay $40 for something I could get a good quality counterfeit of at $20 just to support the designer and buy American, I'd go up to $75 if reviewers said the original was of superior quality, but if you slap a $200 price tag on it I will buy that $20 copy and walk away without a qualm. The price wouldn't be a joke if the clone didn't exist, but once it does the "because I said so" method of pricing stops holding much weight.

All I can say is, you'd be surprised. Even leveraging the Chinese practically psychotic way of doing business, simply keeping a US business a going concern -- nevermind expanding, continuing to develop products, etc. -- is prohibitively expensive.

Also note that China isn't necessarily making a profit at the prices they are selling at. At least not in the way US companies would make profit.

Protectionism will not save economy. If somebody can manufacture something cheaper than you do – you are out of business. Period.

It protected the economy fine for a long time. It's protecting economies other than ours as we speak right now.

Including China's.

Of course it's only really protectionism if it's grossly unequal; we have been so afraid of the term that we eliminated just about all sensible trade protections and every trade policy practically robs our working class. Only the largest and richest companies are really doing truly well right now. But even they see a questionable future with the money rushing to the top, away from the consumerbase.

 

[noel18]

I think southsidevapordelray has authentic colored Manhattans. I bought the copper Manhattan from them and I love it.

 

[tj99959]

I think southsidevapordelray has authentic colored Manhattans. I bought the copper Manhattan from them and I love it.

So you would pay $199 for a Manhattan even though it's made in China right along side the Nemmy, King, & Chi $30 clones?

Kinda like buying a Russian 91 for $100 that is made in the same plant as a $40 KayFun clone.

AGAIN! There is more to research than "OH - doesn't that look pretty".

Quality products stand the test of time, they don't come & go like last Saturday nights dinner.

 

[Funk Dracula]

So you would pay $199 for a Manhattan even though it's made in China right along side the Nemmy, King, & Chi $30 clones?

Kinda like buying a Russian 91 for $100 that is made in the same plant as a $40 KayFun clone.

AGAIN! There is more to research than "OH - doesn't that look pretty".

Actually the Manhattan was made in the US. The first round of clones were too, as they were literally a leftover stockpile from the original machinist that got screwed over.

Newer clones are no doubt made in China, but by all accounts have received good reviews.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVsLzdk8XRU&list=UUgPR3trFb_fZbRADdcsMbfQ

The point is the original company that makes them, Ameravape, are a bunch of douchebags.

The issue is that there's a sucker born every minute: and a new vapor looking for his first shiny authentic who doesn't know any better.

Amerivape is somehow still maintaining their presence by trolling the comments sections of facebook, youtube, and instagram. People don't talk about them anymore, and a new vapor comes along and thinks: "look! Authentic, expensive, shiny, American, competition!"

These new vapors hype each other up and propagate the bullcrap machine. How could you not brag on facebook that your new authentic $249 Manhattan isn't the best thing ever as a newbie?

Listen:

The Amerivape Manhattan is a friggin scam. The guys who run the company are unapologetic douchebags. We know this particular mod costs $60 to machine. I'd tell anybody who is seeking out an original Manhattan mod after receiving the full story about them that they are an idiot and a sucker.

What is there to debate? Don't give these a-holes your money.

Die Ameravape, Die.

There are other mech makers out there that offer up impeccable product, real actual customer service, and stand behind their work with actual warranties. No hype. No overpriced shenanigans. No arrogant douchebaggery.

Later

 

[Wraith504]

Arent a lot of authentics manufactured outside of the U.S. anyway?

 

[inswva]

Since this thread has already gone sideways (big surprise), I'll offer the Super-T Workhorse as an example of a reasonably priced, American made mech mod. The recent reviews have been very favorable. It's simple, functional, authentic, and doesn't look like a gold plated adult novelty item - for $70.

Super T ~ WorkHorse

 

[noel18]

The authentic Manhattans are made in the U.S.. Southsidevapor sells authentics.

So you would pay $199 for a Manhattan even though it's made in China right along side the Nemmy, King, & Chi $30 clones?

Kinda like buying a Russian 91 for $100 that is made in the same plant as a $40 KayFun clone.

AGAIN! There is more to research than "OH - doesn't that look pretty".

Quality products stand the test of time, they don't come & go like last Saturday nights dinner.

 

[Cullin Kin]

Here is a review I did of the Acerig Manhattan clones. I purchased the black aluminum version and liked it so much, I purchased the copper version. Two of my friends have authentic Manhattans, one brass, the other is copper. They are nearly identical, the only difference? The magnets in the clone's switch aren't quite as powerful, but they are more powerful than any other I've tried.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...90377-vaperoyalty-manhattan-clone-review.html

Regardless of whether you go with the authentic or clone, be aware that copper mods need a lot of maintenance. I have to polish mine at least every three days, if I have a lot of free time, I polish every other day. My friend polishes his authentic every day.

They are truly beautiful mods despite what Ameravape has done to tarnish their reputation and are very similar.