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My thoughts (others may have entirely different experiences):
EM (ethyl maltol): First, I don't/won't, consider this a sweetener. With the exception of using this at unusually high percentages (10-20%; according to some... esp. some Boba's Bounty seekers), where you can get a cotton candy/caramelized sugar taste from it (and serious coil gunking), I will not consider EM for a sweetener... EVER.
What I do find it useful for; is removing sharp/harsh edges from established mixes. It can add a bit of "mouth-feel"/thickness/body' though I usually prefer meringue, or marshmallow, for that.
EM, when abused (too much in a recipe), can mute many/most(?) flavor profiles. To make matters more dificult; EM can be found in quite a few flavor concentrates to begin with. So, if I am adding more (without paying attention, my recipe can go south in a hurry. That is why i will never add EM; except when nothing else is working, and I have high notes/sharp edges, that are keeping the recipe from reaching its peak.
Bottom line for EM: it can be an extremely useful tool, and I think it should be in every DIYer's toolbox, but it is the last ingredient I reach for. (Not the first)(I generally use 0.25-0.50%)
Sucralose (TFA-Sweetener, CAP-Super Sweet):Good basic Sweetener. Does just what the name implies... makes things sweet. Doesn't (to me) seem to be the flavor killer/muter that EM can be. This is also hard on coils; so it is best to use minimum needed. (And, like EM, I tend to use this at the end of a recipe, and slowly work my way up.) Normal range (for me) is 0.50-1.00%. On rare ocasions, when my sweet-tooth is really acting up, I might go to 2% (though it has been more than a year that I have found the yearning).
Stevia (liquid): a third option I have/do use is stevia. It is sweeter than sucralose; and seems to be a bit kinder to coils (Perhaps because I use less?). Like sucralose; stevia doesn't seem to mute flavor(s). Nothing added (no mouth-feel) but "sweet." For me, it has a bit of a "cleaner" (less artificial?) taste.
Notes on shopping for stevia: stevia is readily available in most grocery stores... READ INGREDIENTS LABELING CAREFULLY. Powdered/granular/crystallized versions usually contain anti-clumping ingredients, and I have no idea how safe they are of inhalation... I won't use. Many (not all) grocery store liquid versions contain preservatives/stabilizers... again, if I don't know what it is/can't identify it, I won't vape it. There is at least one brand offering (Now BetterStevia Original) that appears to be only stevia, water, and alcohol (as a preservative). I get mine from a known vape supplier: One Stop DIY Shop (aka: OSDIYS).
Finally; a few general random thoughts about sweeteners and DIY:
Because basic flavors/taste sensations... like sweet, sour, and bitter... are the last to go, for smokers' abused taste buds; they (sweet especially) are popular in commercial mixes. If you are wishing to replicate commercial e-liquids; it is a good idea to have both EM, and sucralose, on hand.
As an ex-smoker (±1½ packs a day; for nearly 30 years), my neeed/desire for "sweet" has greatly diminished. In fact, I can say, it often hinders (as much as helps), any given recipe.
My (less than many?) experience with DIY has lead me to the current opinion, that: "poor" mixers use sweeteners as a crutch (trying to fix bad recipes); while "good" mixers use sweeteners as a tool. Learn to use sweeteners as one of the final "polishing"/finishing tools to make a good recipe fantastic; instead of a bad-to-mediocre recipe tolerable. (Choosing a different concentrate, or adjusting existing ratios, can often have better results, than trying to cover "failings" or "shortcomings," with copious amounts of sweetener.)
And last... my disclaimer:
I have shared with you only my own perceptions, and experiences... as I have used them, using sweeteners. Others may share an entirely different point of view... and I encourage you to give them equal consideration. It is only through experience, that each of us can learn what works best for ourselves. And our perceptions continue to change.
If I didn't confuse the bejeezus out of you; I hope it helped... or at least helped to give you another perspective.
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Wow you are amazing.. Thank you soooo much for the reply, though I think I might have to read it again to remember .. But seriously, really nice of you to use so much time on helping me out.My thoughts (others may have entirely different experiences):
EM (ethyl maltol): First, I don't/won't, consider this a sweetener. With the exception of using this at unusually high percentages (10-20%; according to some... esp. some Boba's Bounty seekers), where you can get a cotton candy/caramelized sugar taste from it (and serious coil gunking), I will not consider EM for a sweetener... EVER.
What I do find it useful for; is removing sharp/harsh edges from established mixes. It can add a bit of "mouth-feel"/thickness/body' though I usually prefer meringue, or marshmallow, for that.
EM, when abused (too much in a recipe), can mute many/most(?) flavor profiles. To make matters more dificult; EM can be found in quite a few flavor concentrates to begin with. So, if I am adding more (without paying attention, my recipe can go south in a hurry. That is why i will never add EM; except when nothing else is working, and I have high notes/sharp edges, that are keeping the recipe from reaching its peak.
Bottom line for EM: it can be an extremely useful tool, and I think it should be in every DIYer's toolbox, but it is the last ingredient I reach for. (Not the first)(I generally use 0.25-0.50%)
Sucralose (TFA-Sweetener, CAP-Super Sweet):Good basic Sweetener. Does just what the name implies... makes things sweet. Doesn't (to me) seem to be the flavor killer/muter that EM can be. This is also hard on coils; so it is best to use minimum needed. (And, like EM, I tend to use this at the end of a recipe, and slowly work my way up.) Normal range (for me) is 0.50-1.00%. On rare ocasions, when my sweet-tooth is really acting up, I might go to 2% (though it has been more than a year that I have found the yearning).
Stevia (liquid): a third option I have/do use is stevia. It is sweeter than sucralose; and seems to be a bit kinder to coils (Perhaps because I use less?). Like sucralose; stevia doesn't seem to mute flavor(s). Nothing added (no mouth-feel) but "sweet." For me, it has a bit of a "cleaner" (less artificial?) taste.
Notes on shopping for stevia: stevia is readily available in most grocery stores... READ INGREDIENTS LABELING CAREFULLY. Powdered/granular/crystallized versions usually contain anti-clumping ingredients, and I have no idea how safe they are of inhalation... I won't use. Many (not all) grocery store liquid versions contain preservatives/stabilizers... again, if I don't know what it is/can't identify it, I won't vape it. There is at least one brand offering (Now BetterStevia Original) that appears to be only stevia, water, and alcohol (as a preservative). I get mine from a known vape supplier: One Stop DIY Shop (aka: OSDIYS).
Finally; a few general random thoughts about sweeteners and DIY:
Because basic flavors/taste sensations... like sweet, sour, and bitter... are the last to go, for smokers' abused taste buds; they (sweet especially) are popular in commercial mixes. If you are wishing to replicate commercial e-liquids; it is a good idea to have both EM, and sucralose, on hand.
As an ex-smoker (±1½ packs a day; for nearly 30 years), my neeed/desire for "sweet" has greatly diminished. In fact, I can say, it often hinders (as much as helps), any given recipe.
My (less than many?) experience with DIY has lead me to the current opinion, that: "poor" mixers use sweeteners as a crutch (trying to fix bad recipes); while "good" mixers use sweeteners as a tool. Learn to use sweeteners as one of the final "polishing"/finishing tools to make a good recipe fantastic; instead of a bad-to-mediocre recipe tolerable. (Choosing a different concentrate, or adjusting existing ratios, can often have better results, than trying to cover "failings" or "shortcomings," with copious amounts of sweetener.)
And last... my disclaimer:
I have shared with you only my own perceptions, and experiences... as I have used them, using sweeteners. Others may share an entirely different point of view... and I encourage you to give them equal consideration. It is only through experience, that each of us can learn what works best for ourselves. And our perceptions continue to change.
If I didn't confuse the bejeezus out of you; I hope it helped... or at least helped to give you another perspective.
I apologize if that was a little (or a lot) too long-winded. I have only learned what I have, through the kind help of others here on ECF, and my own experience. It is the kindness of many others; that sets the example for rookies like me, and I hope to pass it along.
I am glad (hope?) it helped. Please, by all means, read and re-read. Take what is useful to you, and discard the rest; each of us has a journey which is unique.
I hope, one point I made clear, is this (my previous post) is where I am at... at this moment. It may not be where you are at; and it may not be where I am at next week; but it is the best I can do for now.
Take your time, try different things, and find what works for you! My opinions can be full of baloney (I have two ex-wives that will gladly wave that banner!). All I can do is share what I think at this moment.
I am glad you have chosen to be part of this community; and I wish you success on your DIY journey!
Oh it helped me very much and you probably saved me a couple of hours of reading bits from other threads (or treads?).. I am Danish so my spelling is not the best.. You really made my day, thank you.I apologize if that was a little (or a lot) too long-winded. I have only learned what I have, through the kind help of others here on ECF, and my own experience. It is the kindness of many others; that sets the example for rookies like me, and I hope to pass it along.
I am glad (hope?) it helped. Please, by all means, read and re-read. Take what is useful to you, and discard the rest; each of us has a journey which is unique.
I hope, one point I made clear, is this (my previous post) is where I am at... at this moment. It may not be where you are at; and it may not be where I am at next week; but it is the best I can do for now.
Take your time, try different things, and find what works for you! My opinions can be full of baloney (I have two ex-wives that will gladly wave that banner!). All I can do is share what I think at this moment.
I am glad you have chosen to be part of this community; and I wish you success on your DIY journey!
Just to add one more but if info, I use Erythritol if I need a sweetener. Typically 1%or less, and it's worked well for me. It's advantage over the others is less coil gunking.
You can also use other flavors in small percentages to sweeten a mix. Marshmallow, meringue, pear, sweet cream, french vanilla, white fudge, and honeysuckle are a few I use.
I use sucralose mainly (FA supersweet) which is pretty concentrated. I do have sweeter flavors that I know contain ethyl maltol, so there are times I am using it as a "background" sweetener note that may also add depth.
It's been my experience that sucralose is the most reliable (and I need the least of it, although I haven't tried erytherol, but I think almost any sweetener won't start gunking unless really large quantities are used.
I am a "reluctant" sweetener though I rarely add more than 1 to 2 drops per 30 ml. Plenty for me now my tastebuds have come back and I really don't like oversweetened storebought juices. If I win some, I usually will do some dilution if needed, and to get my PG down and also probably/sometimes am adding nicotine. It's good to remember that any storebought juices can be amended in this fashion, as you may find as you commence DIY that it's pretty practical and with enough practice many things can be made vapable, so it's all good to me.
I do like not having very sweet, dark juices to gunk up my coils. With that said, of course, you're going to need to do your own experiments . I also haven't used erytherol, but I don't know much about its qualities, so I am a bit hesitant personally, but I find I get very good, consistent results with my (tiny) amount of sucralose.
Best of luck, hope you enjoy yourself.
Anna
It's been my experience that sucralose is the most reliable (and I need the least of it, although I haven't tried erytherol, but I think almost any sweetener won't start gunking unless really large quantities are used.
I am a "reluctant" sweetener though I rarely add more than 1 to 2 drops per 30 ml. Plenty for me now my tastebuds have come back and I really don't like oversweetened storebought juices. If I win some, I usually will do some dilution if needed, and to get my PG down and also probably/sometimes am adding nicotine. It's good to remember that any storebought juices can be amended in this fashion, as you may find as you commence DIY that it's pretty practical and with enough practice many things can be made vapable, so it's all good to me.
I do like not having very sweet, dark juices to gunk up my coils. With that said, of course, you're going to need to do your own experiments . I also haven't used erytherol, but I don't know much about its qualities, so I am a bit hesitant personally, but I find I get very good, consistent results with my (tiny) amount of sucralose.
Best of luck, hope you enjoy yourself.
Anna
If ya share my pain... I'm sorry. If you have a chance to be smarter than I was... well that bar isn't very high (but I'm happy for you!). There is a reason they say women are smarter than men (live it! Believe it!!)!
Love 'em? Hate 'em? always respect 'em! If you're smart (and willing to listen); they might make you a bit better. But, bottom line (?), we'll never live without them (an honest word, a genuine smile, of a kind woman, is worth more than the sun).
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OK thanks
I've not seen "White Fudge." Who makes that?
Totally agree on other concentrates being able to add that "sweet" note. Great call on Honeysuckle for light "airy/sweet" note. I love honeysuckle and have yet to get a perfume-like/floral note. It is more of a "subtle" touch of sweeteness; verses a teaspoon-full of sugar.
WF (SC) white fudge. Pairs nicely with many other flavors and has a nice mouth feel. Just started playing with it. For use as a sweetener it works well using WF white fudge .5% and FA marshmallow .5%, gives a pleasant mouth feel and doesn't intrude flavor wise.
I am guessing you are speaking of Wonder Flavours (WF?) White Fudge SC?
Flavor vs. mouth-feel: how would you rate? (and I totally understand I am putting you on the spot; and perception is completely in the eye/mouth of the beholder (be-taster?))
I guess what I am asking is this more a white sugar fudge flavor, a basic sweetener, or a "mouth-feel?"
Yes Wonder Flavors. It tastes like white cream fudge. I get no hints of vanilla or condensed milk. Surprisingly not over sweet and has that fudge aftertaste on exhale. The mouth feel is a bit thick and fudgey without the sugar breakdown of real old school fudge. I only make old school fudge so that is what I'm comparing it too. I'm thinking it will be great added to WF cream and nut flavors. Also wanting to develop an almond fudge recipe with a bit of marzipan.
Yep, it's my favorite pastime on ECF.Golly! You are being a horrible enabler right now!!
Careful with EM, I generally use no more than 0.2%. Too many flavors already contain EM*. One of my notes: Enhances sweetness. Brings richness & moistness-a bit of sweetness. I have read that most folks who really do not understand sweeteners stand a better chance of ruining their mix than improving it. I will use sweeteners if I feel the recipe needs it or using a known purported successful recipe. I generally know which flavors are sweet enough for me, in order not to have to use any sweetener in a given mix.
* re: What does too much Ethyl Maltol taste like?
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