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Cost efficiency / sustainability in the UK

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BarryNorton

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As I get more into vaping I see a real tendency in the market towards profiteering that goes hand-in-hand with re-branding. To take an extreme case, naming no names, but around the corner from me in London is a high-street store selling eGo batteries and CE4/5s in boxes with their own branding and no mention of 'third-party' parts for 60 quid. Similarly they're selling on e-liquid at a tenner for 10ml bottles. Now, I know that to maintain a high street store you need a decent mark-up on wholesale costs, but that's normally of the order of 100% not 1000% mark-up.

At the other end of the spectrum you have a lot of people who've set up web shops and are trading using PayPal. These seem for the most part to be operating at really tight margins, but are far more honest about where their stuff comes from and what's it's compatible with.

In between you have the more professional Web-based operations like TW (here I'm ignoring completely the cig-a-like companies who seem to be doing the community far more harm than good). On the positive side their healthier product margins mean they're more involved - TW, for instance, seem to put a lot of time into campaigning and achieving success with direct political engagement. On the other hand they seem heavily complicit in the obfuscation by re-branding of equipment and juice.

One thing unites all these models in the market - they all stand to disappear if the market is more regulated. Certainly the high street stores will need a whole new model if/when very few products can afford regulatory approval. The PayPal traders will be dead in the water when their accounts are closed. When that collapse happens there stand to be a lot of people who no longer know what to do with their equipment.

So what of the future?

On batteries, it's clear that people should be buying rugged mods where the batteries can be replaced (as li-ion batteries are going to stay available without doubt). Regarding the rest, my considered approach had been to stockpile clearomizers with replaceable coils and their parts and to start mixing my own juice. My immediate worry is the quality of clearos. My original (one piece) CE4s ended up leaking a lot of juice. My coil-replaceable CE5s are better, but not perfect. My iClear 16s are better still. I am worried that eventually they're going to fare no better though.

Now, as for an alternative, I really like the 'open source' cooperative model of the Genesis atomizer: a combination of a really great idea (steel mesh rather than glass fibre/cotton wicks) and an active advocacy of our getting by in cooperatives rather than traditional commerce. On the other hand, even putting aside the commercial trade in 'Genesis-like atomizers', these are surely (please, disagree with me - I'm a newbie) highly niche. As tempted as I am to start (re)building such atomizers there will be many who are not.

Worse, there's no middle ground. Unlike the replaceable wick/coil clearomizers Genesis atomizers are pretty much 'do it yourself' in a true sense: you can't easily get someone to build you a new 'head' without giving up your whole atomizer. I have seen one thing that makes me think there's a possible alternative here: the Vivi Nova atomizers apparently have not just replaceable heads, but the heads themselves are rebuildable and I've seen videos of people even doing so with steel mesh. Am I naive to think of a cooperative environment where those with more electronics training are building new heads on a non-commercial basis? (If this already happens and I'm unaware, please let me know)

Now the obvious personal answer is to follow what seems to be the standard progression for people around here these days (correct me if I'm wrong): cig-a-likes -> eGo battery and clearomizer -> variable voltage/wattage battery, replaceable coils & wicks, bigger tanks -> mechanical mod and fully rebuildable atomizers. This isn't a model everyone would be interested to follow to the end though, it's pretty technical/skilled.

Similarly with juice: I only ever bought one 10ml bottle before I realised, courtesy of TW, that mixing your own was much cheaper and bought a kit. A week later I was kicking myself when I realised that everything except the nicotine and the flavourings are available dirt cheap on the high street and that their nic is expensive and their (Gold Standard) flavourings piss weak. Further to that, people without a scientific background (I've a PhD - I'm not easy to faze) either are completely turned off by this (a lot of people here seem to buy pre-mixed juice well even long into their vaping 'careers') or get into a tiz about trivial things (e.g. sourcing low-TDS sterile water). It's clear that in a more cooperative market there's a demand for 'amateurs' (which is to say people not pursuing commercial aims) with more scientific training.

Now the absolute crux: nicotine. There's something rather odd going on here: an absolute disparity between the US costs and even the cheapest PayPal/web shop price. I can't explain that (is there an explanation?) And, worse, this is the most fragile link in the chain. This (already-regulated) trade (apparently there's at least an import restriction on concentrations >50mg/ml, but I've not seen statute) might disappear altogether in 2016. I'm certainly not enough of a chemist (either in skill or access to a lab) to do that extraction from (anyway completely over-taxed) tobacco, and I've seen no discussion of such beyond dirty extractions, aiming for flavour first and nicotine second, which seem to achieve little beyond killing atomizers.

The only model here seems to be smuggling nicotine from the States (or further afield). I'm not saying I'd bring a litre of 100mg/ml back... but I'm not saying I wouldn't. Unless there's an alternative when the market gets regulated.

Anyway, this has turned into a bit of a wall of text, so I'm going to post and see if anyone is interested before I'm tempting to continue brain-dumping.
 

e-pipeman

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All very interesting. My experience with TW flavours is that they vary in flavour strength quite considerably. The Blackcurrant is, imho, well worth going for - very full-flavoured.

My understanding of the position re: regulation is that the legislation is likely in 2014 with implementation to follow in 2016.

Have you tried the Octopus RDA? It's extremely easy to rebuild - not even a screwdriver needed. Wire and wick will always be available.

Clearos - try an Evod.

Nicotine. If e-cigs are regulated some type of nicotine will have to be available, probably in cartridges. The problem is that the nic level will probably be low, and the cartridges will be expensive. Desperately searching for something positive to say about that - at least we'll know that it's pharma quality.
 

Codz

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I agree with e-pipeman on TW flavours, sounds very similar to my experience. I'll still buy the patriot orange candy at £16.99 for a 30ml bottle, but only for the weekends!

Good read there Barry... my plan is to vape as long as i can... if regulations / restrictions do come into force i am planning / preparing to quit - I've done it before for a couple of years and I'm pretty sure i can do it again so knowing i have about 3 years to prepare is ok with me, although no doubt when it comes, i will be very ...... off!
 

BarryNorton

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Thanks both for the reply.

It's interesting to hear your experience with TW concentrates - note that I was talking strictly about the Gold Standard range, which is all their kit came with. I was very curious about their other ranges, but couldn't find anything on their own site about their strength (their DIY mixing guide covers only SG concentrates).

I don't think though they offer anything competitive with the 50ml Hangsen RY4 concentrate that I bought at:
Hangsen RY4 Essence/flavour,e-liquid,diy 50ml

Regarding EVOD clearomizers, I'd certainly give them a go if I planned to stick with clearomizers but my feeling is that they're always going to leak eventually and a metal (and pyrex) full rebuildable with replaceable rubber rings is going to do better for sustainability.

My point was rather, in that space, how can we as a community support one another with rebuilding? Separate rebuildable coil heads seem to be fundamental to this (and I don't know of any such design in the community).

Regarding timing, I wholly agree that I seem to be looking a couple of years into the future before this is crucial.
 

Codz

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I guess it all depends on what gets regulated / bannned / restricted. If we know nearer the time, then we can hope our electric devices dont go wrong, but back that up with a couple of high-end mech mods and the power sources are covered. As for tanks, cartos, etc its going to be easy enough to stock up on them. I dont rebuild my own coils (yet) but the price of the wicks / mesh / wire is so small that you could bulk by enough of that to last decades so it just leaves the e-liquid as you say.

I wondered about the expiry dates, but apparently eliquid can last years in the freezer, so if you stocked up in time for the regs to come in circa 2016 i bet you could get together enough equipment / juice to last until 2021. It's only really the liquid that's the issue and I'm sure someone somewhere within the next 8 years is going to come up with a solution (pardon the pun) to making it using non-regulated source material.
 

e-pipeman

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I guess it all depends on what gets regulated / bannned / restricted. If we know nearer the time, then we can hope our electric devices dont go wrong, but back that up with a couple of high-end mech mods and the power sources are covered. As for tanks, cartos, etc its going to be easy enough to stock up on them. I dont rebuild my own coils (yet) but the price of the wicks / mesh / wire is so small that you could bulk by enough of that to last decades so it just leaves the e-liquid as you say.

I wondered about the expiry dates, but apparently eliquid can last years in the freezer, so if you stocked up in time for the regs to come in circa 2016 i bet you could get together enough equipment / juice to last until 2021. It's only really the liquid that's the issue and I'm sure someone somewhere within the next 8 years is going to come up with a solution (pardon the pun) to making it using non-regulated source material.

Pretty much all of the above - but to my certain knowledge juice lasts a long time.

I still have some carts from 2008 (for devices that have long since died).

You take the spongy bits impregnated with e-liquid and you stick them in a big fat syringe with a wide needle. Squeeze it into a bottle.

Waste not, want not.

I keep my other liquids in a dark unrefrigerated cupboard.
 
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djsvapour

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Fascinating.

I use TW concentrates and can't really complain about the strength. In general, I am quite a supporter of TW because although they are not cheap, they aren't taking the proverbial.....

I wasted plenty of money on a plastic-stick system and felt thoroughly ripped off. In my world, these products would be the first to go, and nicotine base would be the last. In fact, I wouldn't even "medicalise" it....I'd put it on sale at the Chemist and a few quid on each bottle for the tax man.

I think regulation will see the end of certain brands for sure. There is no way these shysters are going to be able to prove that one 18mg cartomizer is 40 fags.
 

snout71

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Interesting post. One thing that doesnt affect me is the nicotine as i am zero nicotine atm. Just vaping for flavours. I wonder if i might be better off buying some blackcurrant flavour to add to my blackcurrant juice as its a little weak. Might try mixing my own at some point as all i vape is mint. Menthol and blackcurrant
 

Codz

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snout, do you get your blackurrant from jacvapour too? I got some, but it was the UK made (which admittedly is pretty expensive) but i thought the taste was really strong. I'm hoping joose-juice are better though as their prices are so much better value. I'll have tried my 9 sample bottles by the end of next week then hopefully if they are as good as i am hoping I'll grab them all in 30ml bottles the week after :) I'll probably get twice as much methol as anything else so i can mix it with the cherry, blackurrant, etc. Hopefully they will do a Licorice soon too - I adore Blackurrant & Licorice, brilliant flavour for vaping!
 

snout71

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nah i havent tried the jacvapour ones. i read on this site somewhere that someone vapes it regularly so i thought i'd try some from joose-juice (i bought a 10ml tester) the flavour is mild but it hasnt been steeped yet. fingers crossed.
i also tried it mixed with menthol....nice just need a bit more flavour from the blackcurrant
 

BarryNorton

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OK, duh - I have to confess something. The CE5+s I have are rebuildable like the Vivi Nova.

Guess personally I'm good for a long while with this set-up (once I order some more nic base):

eCigsSmall.jpg
 

ria__x

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Sep 15, 2013
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i'm not as well informed as some of you are, being just a beginner myself and only seldomly vaping (at weekends and some evenings). but this post made me :unsure: a bit! what do we think will be banned? i didn't think the devices themselves would be banned but rather the sale of nicotine itself and maybe the eradication of some companies. but with all the help it has had on people to stop smoking, surely the 'man' would take that into consideration? I, for one, look at the mods and get a headache. lol! i really wouldn't know what do if atomizers were to stop being sold. i could probably do a battery mod though because i'm a bit of a technical geek in ways! plus I wouldn't mind having a 0mg juice, i think i could probably learn to mix myself but i'd rather get premixed :oops:

anyway, this post was definitely food for thought!
 

e-pipeman

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i'm not as well informed as some of you are, being just a beginner myself and only seldomly vaping (at weekends and some evenings). but this post made me :unsure: a bit! what do we think will be banned? i didn't think the devices themselves would be banned but rather the sale of nicotine itself and maybe the eradication of some companies. but with all the help it has had on people to stop smoking, surely the 'man' would take that into consideration? I, for one, look at the mods and get a headache. lol! i really wouldn't know what do if atomizers were to stop being sold. i could probably do a battery mod though because i'm a bit of a technical geek in ways! plus I wouldn't mind having a 0mg juice, i think i could probably learn to mix myself but i'd rather get premixed :oops:

anyway, this post was definitely food for thought!

Hi,

Most vaping gear would be hard to ban/regulate other than on issues of safety which would have to be proven. Nicotine liquid is a different matter, sadly. :(
 

BarryNorton

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I don't think they'll ban gear per se, but it will be excluded from the PayPal (and eBay) T&Cs so these small vendors will be forced out and it will be a toss-up whether those who can afford proper credit card provision can make a viable business when Joe Public can't easily get juice
 

e-pipeman

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