Custardy: Caribbean Edition

[Schff]

I'm pretty new to DIY'ing and would greatly appreciate any advice on the following recipe.

I'm looking to make a spiked custard vape, similar to the sort which you would pour over Christmas pudding.

My current formulation is:

Makes approx. 17ml at 30/70
12ml VG (replace with nic base as necessary) - 70%
0.8ml PG - 4.8%
2.25ml FW Vanilla Custard - 13.5%
1ml FW Sweetener - 6%
0.5ml FW Jamaican Rum - 3%
5 drops Capella Vanilla Custard - 1%
4 drops FW Bavarian Cream - 0.8%
4 drops Capella Caramel - 0.8%

I've tried this out in a Boge carto and a genesis atomiser, and have one concern, which is whether the flavours I've used will develop significantly with steeping.

The flavour mix, or "profile" is more or less what I'm looking for, but I'd like it to be significantly stronger; probably about 40% more so. Will steeping achieve this, or have I under-flavoured?

Thanks for your input!

 

[Pescondo]

As others have noted, additives like EM, sucralose, vinegar and lemon juice tend to mute flavors. With that said, I'd try the same recipe without the 6% sweetner.

 

[we2rcool]

As others have noted, additives like EM, sucralose, vinegar and lemon juice tend to mute flavors. With that said, I'd try the same recipe without the 6% sweetner.

Absolutely Agree +1,000,000,000,000,000...

We've seen plenty of successful/popular recipes using those/similar ingredients; the are already VERY sweet on their own. EM isn't mentioned in the post below (but that's likely because it was well-known/discussed at the time to be a flavor killer/muter). EM will even dull/mute our taste buds!

For newbies: until one "k-n-o-w knows" their flavors and has worked with the additives long enough to know them, it makes no sense to start throwing them together. The likeliest result is wasted time, money, and a ton of frustration...and a juice using FAR more chemicals than would have ever been necessary without the additives.

Regarding the addition of sucralose (and other additives that diminish flavor), from here, Post #413: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/268760-diy-master-techniques-flavor-add-ons-em-vw-bw-mts-acv-ect-11.html

As far as I can recall, I was the one who tested lemon juice and the effects it had on fruit flavors. At the time I was also using sucralose (ezsweets) in fruit/bakery flavors. I also tested distilled vinegar (not acv, I dont use it) on tobaccos.

What I found with fruit and bakery vapes is they were great initally with the additives, for about two days. Then on day 3 like clockwork the sharpness/crispness of the flavor was just... plain... gone. It never rebounded either. It just continued decline. So I started testing the same juices with lemon juice and sucralose separately. Trying to find the culprit. The result in my tests was that they BOTH decrease flavor output of ejuice. While they help initally boost and sweeten flavor, within a few days, they both cause ejuice to simply go flat. While its a more dramatic example, I feel the same way about ejuice with lemon or sucralose as I do about flat soda pop. Its just lackluster.

This occured in both high VG bases at 80% and high PG bases at 80%. I tested both because I didnt want people calling me out saying VG mutes flavor, which to this day I refute as utter nonsense.

I no longer use either in any of my mixing. I have found that using fruit flavors with alcohol bases provide more than enuff sweetening o. their own if they are steeped for 48-72 hours, and it helps that I use 80%VG in my juice.

As far as tobaccos go I also agree vinegar that after a few days it can flatten flavors over time. However!!! As I vape mostly tobacco ejuices I still add 1 drop/5ml of distilled white vinegar to my vapes. To counter the flattening I adjust by adding slightly more flavoring. About .5% to 1% more flavoring in a final mix. In my experience this counters the effect of flavor flattening with DV and allows mostly all tobacco vapes to round out immediately. (note: i also heat steep my juices at a constant 150° in a water bath in a crock pot for four hours after mixing and have found it it adds about 2 weeks to the aging process of ejuice). At the 2 weeks mark (in my case then this is 4 hours after mixing), all of your tobacco flavors will have a spike in flavor and will stay there, but only round more given time. Giving you a spiked up flavor but still rounded body to your vape. I found apple cider vinegar made bad and good juuces worse with no spike at all, but to be fair I barely ever tested acv.

All of my vapes... yes read that as ALL... are primed and full bodied in four hours. Period. Ultrasonic isnt the answer either. Hand shaking is enuff for juice. Heat allows flavor dissipation and release FAR FAR better.

Alot of what I do flys in the face of common and well "documented" processes others use like ultrasonic steeping tho. (if it works for ya, great. I know what I know and heat is the key, not vibration. And yeah, I tested that too about three months ago so I stand behind it).

People just pretty much ignored my testing. I took painstaking measures to control the samples and.prove to myself the results. Today when people say they use lemon juice, or sucralose and RAVE about the results.... I know they are NOT vaping stellar juice. They are absolutely, positively, better off without both. Unless they are going to vape what they make in under two days.

Note: I did not bother testing the effects of citric acid powder in juice, but I assume it has the same effect as lemon juice and mutes flavors.

 

[Schff]

Thanks for the tips, Pescondo and we2rcool!

I've just been automatically adding a bit of sweetener to my dessert vapes after I noted positive results with a watermelon menthol and some other fruit blends. I guess that led to the assumption that no sweetener = not sweet, and vice versa. I'd never considered that some flavours could be sweet enough on their own, and shall begin looking into that.

I'll make up another small batch without the EM (sweetener) and will let you guys know how it goes.

Thanks again, guys.

 

[we2rcool]

Thanks for the tips, Pescondo and we2rcool!

I've just been automatically adding a bit of sweetener to my dessert vapes after I noted positive results with a watermelon menthol and some other fruit blends. I guess that led to the assumption that no sweetener = not sweet, and vice versa. I'd never considered that some flavours could be sweet enough on their own, and shall begin looking into that.

I'll make up another small batch without the EM (sweetener) and will let you guys know how it goes.

Thanks again, guys.

You're more than welcome!

Almost ALL flavors are already plenty sweet. There are many DIYers (us included) that find we never need to 'sweeten' them at all. And if we do (which is very rare in our experience), we add a bit of a 'sweet flavor' rather than messing with the additives that kill flavor. There are a LOT of DIYers that "automatically add sweetener" without having any idea of it's negative effects - so don't feel like you're the Lone Ranger!

Confused here - above you noted that you used FW "sweetener", but FW's sweetener is Sucralose http://flavorwest.com/index.php/sweetener.html Either way, they both mute flavor, and 6% of either is a crazy-high-flavor-killer amount.

:::insert we2 screaming and pulling out hair::: EM is NOT a "sweetener", never has been, and we have no IDEA where that 'oft repeated rumor' ever got started (there are several us doing our best to squelch it :::grin::. Perhaps it's because it smells and tastes like cotton candy. But if you taste real cotton candy, and then EM, you'll definitely know the EM is not sweet. For something to be a 'sweetener' it has to be sweeter than whatever it's added to. And while it may be sweeter than jalapeno or hickory, it's not sweeter than flavors with even a hint of sweetness.

EM has it's purpose - it will definitely 'thicken' a vape (kinda like a marshmallow sensation) and 'smooth off rough/sharp edges' - and some people just like the flavor, or use it to create other flavors/sensations. But anything over .5% will definitely start muting flavors (we think it mutes flavors slightly at even .5%).

We think you'll be MUCH more pleased with your new mix!

 

[Pescondo]

I hope it helps.

When I started mixing, I was targeting 20-25% total flavoring, and didn't think you could even mix a juice without sweetener, lemon juice, or both, added......I was wrong. Learning your individual flavors, as stated by several members on this forum, is really the best advice I've gotten. It can be painful and boring at times, but for me, I think it'll payout in the long run.

Good luck in your quest!

 

[we2rcool]

I hope it helps.

When I started mixing, I was targeting 20-25% total flavoring, and didn't think you could even mix a juice without sweetener, lemon juice, or both, added......I was wrong. Learning your individual flavors, as stated by several members on this forum, is really the best advice I've gotten. It can be painful and boring at times, but for me, I think it'll payout in the long run.

Good luck in your quest!

It will DEFINITELY pay off in the long run (and the short run). And yeah, it can be a bit tedious - BUT, once you know a few flavors you can start mixing them together (or even with others you don't know so well). The "more better" you know one flavor, the easier it is to discern what the added flavor is all about.

'Don't know I'm explaining that right --

It's like cooking. If you've made the same chocolate chip cookie recipe for years and you really know exactly what that 'chocolate chip cookie flavor' tastes like - then you can add a flavor you don't know much about to the chocolate chip cookie, and get a good idea what the added flavor 'is all about', by how it changed your chocolate chip cookies.

That's not as exact as "knowing each flavor perfectly", but the more single flavors you know (and the more mileage you get under your belt with the mixing, percentages, steeping, etc), the easier-faster-better you'll become at guessing & discerning 'in advance'...'till one day you'll be nailing mixes in your head before you even mix them!

 

[Schff]

Hey,

So I just mixed up the same recipe, but replaced the FW sweetener (yes, it's sucralose, not ethyl maltol. I guess that's going to be a future can of worms for me) with PG base instead.

You guys were pretty much dead on. Comparing the two batches on boge cartos, the freshly-made one has a significantly richer custard taste, and the creaminess is really coming through more. Given some steeping time, I think this will turn out much better than the original. Probably not perfect, but far closer to the mark than if I'd stuck with the 1ml of FW sweetener recipe

One thing I noticed - while it mutes the cream/custard flavor, sucralose seems to compliment the Jamaican rum. Right off the bat, I am not getting as much of the "fermented fruit" kick of the rum with 0 sweetener. However, I'm going to let these sit for a few days (or crock pot steep if I can find some time) and see how both develop with steeping.

From my limited experience so far, it really does seem that each flavouring has its own peculiarities when steeping and interacting with additives. @Pescondo, I do see how as a learner it can get pretty heavy having to titrate everything to the drop. I'm documenting as much as I can remember to.

I will update this thread with any observations and refinements I've made once the steeping period/process (if I crock-pot) has been completed.

Happy vaping in the meantime