Danger, Venting Batteries-Clones?

[Acer50]

Hi All,
I am not sure as to which sub forum to put this in as I did a search on Venting batteries and it seems it was closed for further replies. A month ago I purchased from an Aussie Supplier who at this stage shall remain nameless as I am awaiting to see what he will do about it; some what were supposed to be Sony 18650 2100 mah batteries rated at 30A. Ok, My SMY GOD MOD 180S still had good batteries in it and two days ago charging the "SONY" new batteries on my LUC Efest Charger I put them into my GOD MOD yesterday.

I happily used the Mod Saturday and Sunday with the Sony batteries installed. Coming home Sunday night the power was low and I plugged the cable into the USB charger on the Mod. We used the same charger that we always used with this Mod when we charged Efest and Panasonic batteries. Never a problem. When I picked up the Mod today there was a guey chemical under it (Black) and it would not turn on. Opening the mod here are the pictures of what we found.



Now the supplier of the batteries has replied: Can you please explain how you came to the conclusion that the batteries are at fault? I'd be more inclined to thing the Mod's charging circuit has a fault.

Duh...... we have used other brand of batteries on this mod and the efest intelligent charger and never a problem the other thing is with the Panasonic and efest batteries there is an authenticity bar code that you can scan and verify that the batteries are genuine and not re branded. With the Sony battery the there is a square bar code that is unreadable by the scanner. Now note the batteries were supposed to be brand new.

Sony have ceased manufacture of the VTC4 and VTC5 One wonders what China is shipping old stock or clones.

 

[ReigntheGamer]

Are the bottom of the batteries smooth or do they have a raised area?

 

[Mooch]

VTC4's and VTC5's are being produced. I just recently finished testing 2015-dated cells.
Could you also pull the white label off the cells and photograph the lettering/numbering that's underneath?

I have photos in my test posts that you can use for comparison:
Sony VTC4 2100mAh 18650 Bench Test Results...a 20A cell that can be used to 30A | E-Cigarette Forum

Sony VTC5 20A 2600mAh Bench Test Results...a good 20A cell | E-Cigarette Forum

 

[roxynoodle]

You charged these in the mod or on the charger?

 

[VHRB2014]

We absolutely refuse to use ANY on board chargers on our mods for just this reason.

Sorry you lost the mod and batteries, but its anybodies guess what exactly caused the problem. The way I see it these boards, if or (when) they go, the go in a big way. its not worth it.

 

[Asbestos4004]

charging 3 batteries on board...never a great idea. Sorry this happened to you and I'm glad you only lost a mod. Could have been worse!

 

[Mike 586]

You charged these in the mod or on the charger?

From the pictures and description they were most definitely charged in the mod.

Personally I just wouldn't trust the charging circuit on a series wired mod, particularly a lot of the 2x 3x 18650 box mods I'm seeing floating around. Just from the pictures I've been seeing of the internals, I'd say its a very safe bet to say the mod is using a garbage charging circuit and I'd lean heavily towards blaming the mod over blaming the batteries.

Good multi-stage charging circuitry with over charge protection and temperature monitoring for each individual battery etc. make chances of even a bad battery melting/venting almost nil. It would just cut power to the faulty battery and display an error whether that's on an LCD screen or LEDs in a flash pattern.

 

[roxynoodle]

Yep, sorry, I wouldn't charge in the mod. Too many problems with the ipv charging boards. First they had to take it off the original ipv3 and now the ipv4. I also suspect this is one of the problems with the 50W isticks. When it comes to two or three batteries, external charger only.

 

[Ryedan]

I happily used the Mod Saturday and Sunday with the Sony batteries installed. Coming home Sunday night the power was low and I plugged the cable into the USB charger on the Mod. We used the same charger that we always used with this Mod when we charged Efest and Panasonic batteries. Never a problem. When I picked up the Mod today there was a guey chemical under it (Black) and it would not turn on.

When charging more than one of these battery in series you need to have a balancing circuit built into the charger. If that is not in their system what happened to you can happen.

I don't know the GOD MOD 180S, but I suspect this is the issue. Your Sony batteries charged just fine in the LUC which is a good charger. I have a mod that has a built in charger and uses two batteries in parallel which is safer to use than if they are in series. I would never use the built in charger unless I was checking the batteries to make sure they were not heating up, specially near the end of the charge. Also, any charger can fail so I don't ever charge my batteries when I'm not there and able to see and feel if there is a problem. Li-ion batteries don't vent unless they get hot enough to do so.

 

[Acer50]

Are the bottom of the batteries smooth or do they have a raised area?

The bottom of the batteries as the top are smooth they are 18650 flat tops not button tops. The mod would accept both. The bottom is about a quarter of a mill below the battery cover.

 

[Acer50]

VTC4's and VTC5's are being produced. I just recently finished testing 2015-dated cells.
Could you also pull the white label off the cells and photograph the lettering/numbering that's underneath?

I have photos in my test posts that you can use for comparison:
Sony VTC4 2100mAh 18650 Bench Test Results...a 20A cell that can be used to 30A | E-Cigarette Forum

Sony VTC5 20A 2600mAh Bench Test Results...a good 20A cell | E-Cigarette Forum

ok the numbers are US18650 VTC4 C4 then a sqiggly letters that look like an SN combined under that there is G0775843WE28A
Second battery: 1st Line the same number and the second line is again the same G0775843WE28A
Third battery: Top line the same bottom line unreadable due to chemical corrosion.

They cannot be photographed as the numbers can be barely seen even under a desk magnification lamp

 

[Acer50]

Thank you all that replied. The vendor of the Mod has offered to replace the Mod with his shop demo model which was decent of him considering the mod is over three months old and definitely out of warranty. On the other hand the vendor of the batteries gave me all sorts of bull...t replies and I certainly will not be going back there. 3-4 emails. Whereas the Mod vendor, one phone call and all was apples.

As to charging the batteries, when they originally arrived June 18th year they were totally flat and that is not unusual as it is illegal to post or send by courier charged batteries. As stated in the initial post they traveled to me by Australia Post and they like China Mail take a very dim view of any battery being mailed charged or otherwise. If charged and they detect batteries you may not get them.

The initial charge was via a Efest LUC V4 Battery charger the displayed charging current was 0.5A Those of you that have a 4 cell Efest Charger may know that it can charge as high as 2A. However being new batteries I played it safe and charged them @ 0.5A.

Following this as been the norm with this Mod in the last three months it has never been necessary to take the batteries out and it has always been ok. If what some of you learned folk have written then what do we do with Mods with built in batteries like the Eleaf, and the SMOK XPRO M80 Plus you cannot take these batteries out, both of these mods I have the Eleaf 50W and the SMOK and never had an issue with either.

I did see on Youtube some person trying to remove and replace the batteries in an Eleaf but honestly the fumbling around he did I gave up watching. Also with the older versions of the pass through Ego style VV batteries I never had an issue. They lasted me about 250 to 300 charges and then I would buy new ones. Folks I dunno, the SMY180S God Mod was very good for the three months I had it and as stated I never had an issue with it. My two favourite mods are the eleaf 50W and the Smok Xpro M80 Plus at the moment. I know there are some good Kangartech Mini Subohm Kits coming out but I have had issues with Kangartech tanks leaking and was not all that impressed with the life of the seals. I am currently using a SMOK Vapor Chaser Tank and a Eleaf Lemmo Drop RBA both of which are excellent as is the Meganus by Vapestone. The SMOK coil lasted me for nearly a month which surprised me as I am a chain vaper.

Again thank you all for your replies and your condolences at my loss, well not exactly a loss I got a demo mod as a replacement from the mod vendor

 

[Acer50]

VTC4's and VTC5's are being produced. I just recently finished testing 2015-dated cells.
Could you also pull the white label off the cells and photograph the lettering/numbering that's underneath?

I have photos in my test posts that you can use for comparison:
Sony VTC4 2100mAh 18650 Bench Test Results...a 20A cell that can be used to 30A | E-Cigarette Forum

Sony VTC5 20A 2600mAh Bench Test Results...a good 20A cell | E-Cigarette Forum

That is interesting as to what you say, Two Aussie Vendors have told me that the VCT4 and VCT5's are no longer made by Sony. Once their stock is gone they will not be selling them any more. One Vendor has totally stopped selling them as he too has had issues of a nature that I am not aware of. If Sony have stopped making them then who is?

Some back yard sweat shop in China?
Here is the link that tells me that Sony have stopped making them go figure I am only going on what I read.

 

[d4gger]

Batteries have to be flat? As in zero-point-zero volts? That, by our general definitions, makes a battery forever unuseable, at least for high-drain applications.

At any rate, Sony is still making batteries - all of them, just not for us. Samsung 25R are the way to go for most mods, and LG HE4/HG series are possibly our new best.

Your original post sounds vaguely like you charged in a vehicle. If so, please never do so again. Vehicle's alternators do not provide flat-enough power for us to rely on them to charge our finicky batteries. If not, please remember so anyway.

Honest chances are that it was the mod that caused problems (failure to balance charge and/or failure to accurately detect charge end-point), though the vendors I deal with would have replaced the batteries no problems - I'm much more valuable as a customer than the $30-ish USD to replace those.

Overall, your best bet going forward is to charge in a real charger - Nitecore intellicharger D4 is what I use, works quite well - and to buy rarely-counterfeited batteries from a trusted vendor. Honestly, I have no idea who that might be in your region, but I wish the best.

 

[Mooch]

That is interesting as to what you say, Two Aussie Vendors have told me that the VCT4 and VCT5's are no longer made by Sony. Once their stock is gone they will not be selling them any more. One Vendor has totally stopped selling them as he too has had issues of a nature that I am not aware of. If Sony have stopped making them then who is?

Some back yard sweat shop in China?
Here is the link that tells me that Sony have stopped making them go figure I am only going on what I read.

My understanding of it is that either manufacturing never stopped or that is was just moved to other plants and that took time to get going. Sony was still selling those cells to OEMs to incorporate into their products (power tools, etc.). They just weren't selling them to anyone who could resell them to the publuc, especially vapers. You can crack open power tool battery packs and find new manufacture cells in them.

 

[Mooch]

ok the numbers are US18650 VTC4 C4 then a sqiggly letters that look like an SN combined under that there is G0775843WE28A
Second battery: 1st Line the same number and the second line is again the same G0775843WE28A
Third battery: Top line the same bottom line unreadable due to chemical corrosion.

They cannot be photographed as the numbers can be barely seen even under a desk magnification lamp

Thanks! So far, so good. Do your cells look like the ones in my photos?

When you put them in your LUC V4, do you remember what voltage they started out at? You said they were totally flat when you got them...zero volts? If yes, they were badly damaged and could have leaked when charged at a later time.

 

[Acer50]

Batteries have to be flat? As in zero-point-zero volts? That, by our general definitions, makes a battery forever unuseable, at least for high-drain applications.

At any rate, Sony is still making batteries - all of them, just not for us. Samsung 25R are the way to go for most mods, and LG HE4/HG series are possibly our new best.

Your original post sounds vaguely like you charged in a vehicle. If so, please never do so again. Vehicle's alternators do not provide flat-enough power for us to rely on them to charge our finicky batteries. If not, please remember so anyway.

Honest chances are that it was the mod that caused problems (failure to balance charge and/or failure to accurately detect charge end-point), though the vendors I deal with would have replaced the batteries no problems - I'm much more valuable as a customer than the $30-ish USD to replace those.

Overall, your best bet going forward is to charge in a real charger - Nitecore intellicharger D4 is what I use, works quite well - and to buy rarely-counterfeited batteries from a trusted vendor. Honestly, I have no idea who that might be in your region, but I wish the best.

Excuse me, I do not possess a vehicle charger for 18650 batteries. The LUC V4 although having a USB port has never been taken of my desk. Yes I also own a Nightcore intellicharger and that one BTW has a 12V provision for vehicle charging. The only batteries that I have ever charged from a vehicle have been the ego type batteries in the old days of the crappy 650mah rubbish, and also the Eleaf 50W through an approved USB vehicle charger. My Mobile Phone is likewise charged through a vehicle charger supplied by the manufacturer of the phone. Guess what that is.....Sony Experia, and I have had it for 18 months and no worries. The Eleaf 50 W likewise has given no problems with a vehicle charger suposedly designed for it.

My vehicle vape is an Innokin DRV which plugs into the cigarette lighter socket and has no battery. That BTW is over 12 months old and has not failed me yet and I do a lot of hours on the road.

 

[Acer50]

Thanks! So far, so good. Do your cells look like the ones in my photos?

When you put them in your LUC V4, do you remember what voltage they started out at? You said they were totally flat when you got them...zero volts? If yes, they were badly damaged and could have leaked when charged at a later time.

Yes they do, however the writting under the lables is very faint as I said.

Yes when I put them into the LUC4 they started out at almost no reading then gradually over an hour or so showed 3.7V and then built up to 4.7 over about 4-5 hours @ 0.5A I did not dare to push the amperage any higher on new batteries.

 

[Mooch]

Yes they do, however the writting under the lables is very faint as I said.

Yes when I put them into the LUC4 they started out at almost no reading then gradually over an hour or so showed 3.7V and then built up to 4.7 over about 4-5 hours @ 0.5A I did not dare to push the amperage any higher on new batteries.

Good thinking, overdischarged cells hate being recharged quickly. Sounds like you got genuine cells, but....
I'm thinking that you received badly damaged cells that probably had a very high self-discharge rate that was very different for each cell. This would cause a large imbalance when charged in series in your mod. The mod's charger balances the cells, but at a very low rate that just compensates for slight differences in self-discharge between the cells. It just can't handle a large imbalance fast enough to prevent a cell from being overcharged (too high a voltage). This overcharge very often leads to a cell venting or even going into thermal runaway if the voltage and current are high enough.

 

[d4gger]

Excuse me, I do not possess a vehicle charger for 18650 batteries. The LUC V4 although having a USB port has never been taken of my desk. Yes I also own a Nightcore intellicharger and that one BTW has a 12V provision for vehicle charging. The only batteries that I have ever charged from a vehicle have been the ego type batteries in the old days of the crappy 650mah rubbish, and also the Eleaf 50W through an approved USB vehicle charger. My Mobile Phone is likewise charged through a vehicle charger supplied by the manufacturer of the phone. Guess what that is.....Sony Experia, and I have had it for 18 months and no worries. The Eleaf 50 W likewise has given no problems with a vehicle charger suposedly designed for it.

The Nitecore chargers condition incoming power, so it'd likely work out, though I won't ever try it. Anyway, that eliminates two possibilities. I apologize to sound chastising, I just hate to think of folks out there putting 4.8-5.8V into a port that expects a strict 4.9-5.2V and I take every opportunity to announce it as a bad idea. And yes, modern phones (mostly) have smart charging boards, though they did frequently have overheat/vent occurence up to ten years ago due to poor overcharge protection (particularly in vehicles on extended trips).

To comment to your most recent post, I would send batteries that tested less than 3.5V back. I do not know what I would do if law prohibited such a charge status.

And I will bow out of this conversation, since I have certainly given all the relevant advice I have. G'night.