"Doesn't need sweeteners" Really?

[HilseeJ]

I'm quite confused when people say this... and I'm quite confused if I'm even tasting the same things you guys are.

I have a wide variety of flavors, really trying to give this DIY thing a try, but I'm greatly confused.

Here is the list of flavors that I have:
TFA:

Banana Nut Bread

Belgian Waffle

Bubblegum (Juicy Style)

Butterscotch

Caramel

Caramel Candy

Cheesecake

Cinnamon

Cinnamon Sugar Cookie

Double Chocolate

Dulce De Leche

Energy Drink

Graham Cracker Clear

Hickory Smoke

Horchata Base

Irish Cream

Juicy Peach

Maple Syrup

Marshmallow

Molasses

Peppermint

Pumpkin Spice

RY4 Type-1

Smooth

Sweet Tarts Type

Vanilla Swirl

Vanilla Cupcake

Whipped Cream

vaping ZONE:

SC Gourmet Vanilla

SC Gourmet Caramel

Energy Cow

Butterscotch

Mandarin

Caramel Mocha

Tutti Frutti

Caramel Candy

Caramel Cream Puff

Choco Roll

Vanilla Ice Cream

Sc Gourmet Cream Charlotte

I am using 75% VG 25% pg, and I can't see how anyone could say it "doesn't need sweeteners", even with the sweetness of VG.

I have tried virtually all of these, in addition to TFA brown sugar extra, TFA vanillin, Sucralose, and TFA honey.



What am I missing? I've tried steeping, heat steeping, and I'm just not getting it. Here are my issues with each sweetener:

EM- No real change at any dosage below 30% of a mix that contains double strength EM (That's 60% of regular strength). Anything lower than that results in no tangible change. The best success I've had is making this absurd mixture and then adding flavorings (AND sucralose) to that. This is "okay."

Sucralose- This is the only thing that I actually get a result out of, but at the 2 drops per ml range - way higher than suggested. At this point, it overpowers the flavors, and tastes chemically. Anything else provides a minor sweetness. It works, but not adequately.

Brown sugar extra - tastes like the brown part of the brown sugar. Not really sweet, but not terrible. It adds the taste, but not the sweetness.

Vanillin - Barely changes anything, probably not considered a sweetener to most people anyways. Just wanted to throw in that I tried it.

TFA Honey - Actually, not bad. But doesn't mix well with flavors. It either overpowers them or turns them to crap.

Let it also be mentioned that I have tried a serious number of different combinations of these.

Let it be said that I mainly sub ohm @ .4, but I also have a dripping atty and a protank II aerotank.

And lastly, the goal I'm reaching for is not the QUALITY of brand name ejuices, just the SWEETNESS of them. I just can't seem to reach that goal.

And THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR RESPONSES. I'm getting pretty confused when I hear people talk about not adding sweeteners.

EDIT:

in my arsenal right now, with the TFA's being heated for 3 hours then steeped for a week, and the vaping zones being heated and steeped overnight:

(all flavors are unsweetened unless otherwise noted)

TFA:

Caramel candy, 15% - light flavor, not sweet enough
Caramel candy, 7% 3 drops marshmallow in 5ml - actually not bad, but you can barely taste the caramel now
Cinnamon sugar cookie, 15% - no taste, mildly sweet
Cinnamon sugar cookie, 7.5% - meh? dry and flavorless
Vanilla cupcake, 7.5% - slightly sweet, little flavor
Juicy peach, 7.5% 5% EM - pretty good, just still not as sweet as expected

VZ:
Butterscotch (rec dil 1-2%) 4% - tastes toasted, not sweet at all
Butterscotch 2% - identical to 4%
Caramel (rec dil 1-2%) 3% - also tastes toasty - barely sweet
Caramel (rec dil 1-2%) 1.5% - WOW - much better. but still no where close to store bought
Caramel Mocha (rec dil 2.5%) 4% - toasty; not sweet
Caramel Mocha 2% - same as 4%
Mandarin (rec dil 2.5%) 6% - slightly orange taste, kinda sweet
Mandarin 2% - More orange, less sweet
Mandarin 1% - kinda sweet, still doesn't pop, sweetness doesn't linger
Caramel Candy (rec dil 2.5%) 8% - just tastes super toasty, mildly caramel
Caramel Candy 2% - sweeter, but still super toasty
Caramel Candy 2% + 1drop marshmallow/ml - better, still super toasty

The toastiness is a common complaint with VZ flavors, so we can ignore that.

 

[Blueser]

What am I missing? Marshmallow ...I see you have it...use it

 

[RocketPuppy]

EM nor cotton candy are necessarily sweeteners. They act as buffers and take away some of the sharpness. Many find it just mutes flavor. People often use it to take the edge out of super potent flavors.

For sweeteners, go with Sucralose, stevia, or marshmallow. Keep in mind that too much of any flavor actually mutes the flavor.

Edit: forgot word

 

[we2rcool]

Without knowing the percentages at which you're mixing the flavors, there's no way to guess what's happening. Overflavoring can easily result in less flavoring/sweetness overall.

At more than .5% - 1% EM almost always lessens flavor (including sweetness).

Another thing about EM that most people don't recognize, is that after vaping a juice containing EM, for a few hours afterward, the overall intensity of other juices vaped can be substantially lessened. We don't know if that happens to everybody, but we've seen it reported (and it most definitely happens to both of us).

In fact, we rarely use EM, but last week found a recipe that suggested 2.5%...and since we wanted to try it 'as written' before changing it, we went ahead a mixed it up that way. We had 5 different mixes to test in that session and started with the one with the EM. We sat there with the rest of them 'going crazy' (because neither one of us could taste the other 4). Finally we realized (head slap), it HAD to be the EM in the first juice. We tried the 4 of them again the next day, and yep...wowzah flavor on all of them. Then we vaped the high EM one and tasted the others again. Yep, dead flat.

If you'll post a few of the actual mixes you've created (percentages, additives, and any other variable you can think of) and what you've experienced, hopefully one of us will be able to help you get on the 'success track'.

Also, what brand of VG, PG, and nic are you using? We once had a USP VG that killed all our mixes.

 

[HeadInClouds]

How long since you quit smoking? If Maple Syrup and Caramel Candy don't taste sweet to you without added anything, I don't know what to suggest! Those are sticky sweet to me, and I like sweet vapes.

 

[Milkhoney]

Definitely try marshmallow, it's got that corn syrup taste. But I use all VG because it's so sweet, and no additional sweetener at all. Most TFA flavorings work fine to me as they are, and marshmallow and EM are the only sweet things I generally use.

Really best suggestion is to try with less flavor. Too much flavoring to me tastes either like chemical mess or like nearly nothing at all.

 

[03FXDWG]

I would try adding a base flavor of coconut, bavarian cream, or vanilla twirl types and then add a drop or 2 of sucralose. Shake, Shake, Shake and maybe let sit/age/steep for at least 24 hours. Vanillin isn't really a flavor. It's an enhancer for anything that has vanilla in it. You might also try a little cinnamon red hot flavor. It is sweet and it gives that little burn like real smoking does.

I also found that my taste for sweetness changed over the months. I had to use more TFA Sweetener when I first started than I do now. The same thing happened with salt in my food since I started vaping.

Always start your flavors & sweeteners at low percentages and let age/steep for a day or more between testing. Small batches will mature faster than larger ones.

I mixed up TFA Caramel, Dulce de Leche & Double Chocolate clear at 10% and all are extremely sweet & flavorful. I use a 70PG/30VG ratio & 10% nicotine.

I agree with other posts about EM (Ethyl Maltol) which is also known as Cotton Candy. It is a little sweet but mostly it just takes the bite out of whatever you put it in. I tried it with lemonade and ended up with lemon pudding--blech but it worked very well to tame a bitter orange peel into orange drink.

 

[HilseeJ]

THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP SO FAR. Made my best mix yet with 7.5% caramel candy TFA and a bit of marshmallow.

Here are the percentages I've been using.

in my arsenal right now, with the TFA's being heated for 3 hours then steeped for a week, and the vaping zones being heated and steeped overnight:

(all flavors are unsweetened unless otherwise noted)

TFA:

Caramel candy, 15% - light flavor, not sweet enough
Caramel candy, 7% 3 drops marshmallow in 5ml - actually not bad, but you can barely taste the caramel now
Cinnamon sugar cookie, 15% - no taste, mildly sweet
Cinnamon sugar cookie, 7.5% - meh? dry and flavorless
Vanilla cupcake, 7.5% - slightly sweet, little flavor
Juicy peach, 7.5% 5% EM - pretty good, just still not as sweet as expected

VZ:
Butterscotch (rec dil 1-2%) 4% - tastes toasted, not sweet at all
Butterscotch 2% - identical to 4%
Caramel (rec dil 1-2%) 3% - also tastes toasty - barely sweet
Caramel (rec dil 1-2%) 1.5% - WOW - much better. but still no where close to store bought
Caramel Mocha (rec dil 2.5%) 4% - toasty; not sweet
Caramel Mocha 2% - same as 4%
Mandarin (rec dil 2.5%) 6% - slightly orange taste, kinda sweet
Mandarin 2% - More orange, less sweet
Mandarin 1% - kinda sweet, still doesn't pop, sweetness doesn't linger
Caramel Candy (rec dil 2.5%) 8% - just tastes super toasty, mildly caramel
Caramel Candy 2% - sweeter, but still super toasty
Caramel Candy 2% + 1drop marshmallow/ml - better, still super toasty

What am I missing? Marshmallow ...I see you have it...use it

That actually helped a lot. Marshmallow seems to be the best sweetener I've had... period (although it's early to tell. I added it to a 7.5% caramel candy TFA and it's the best mix I've made yet!

Without knowing the percentages at which you're mixing the flavors, there's no way to guess what's happening. Overflavoring can easily result in less flavoring/sweetness overall.

Just added flavor percentages to original post as well as this one.

Another thing about EM that most people don't recognize, is that after vaping a juice containing EM, for a few hours afterward, the overall intensity of other juices vaped can be substantially lessened. We don't know if that happens to everybody, but we've seen it reported (and it most definitely happens to both of us).

This could have been part of the problem. I did try some the next day. I got more of the flavor but still not sweet enough.

For sweeteners, go with Sucralose, stevia, or marshmallow. Keep in mind that too much of any flavor actually mutes the flavor.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CB1QP46/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

got this stevia on the way

Also, what brand of VG, PG, and nic are you using? We once had a USP VG that killed all our mixes.

Amazon.com: Glycerin Vegetable Kosher USP - 1 Quart: Health & Personal Care (glycerin)

Amazon.com: Propylene Glycol - Food Grade USP - 1 Quart (32 Oz.): Health & Personal Care (PG)

How long since you quit smoking? If Maple Syrup and Caramel Candy don't taste sweet to you without added anything, I don't know what to suggest! Those are sticky sweet to me, and I like sweet vapes.

2 years almost. Caramel candy by itself was kinda sweet, but it still wasn't there. I added some marshmallow to it and now that's my choice mix.

Molasses I haven't gotten around to it. Do you vape it straight or use it as a sweetener?

Definitely try marshmallow, it's got that corn syrup taste. But I use all VG because it's so sweet, and no additional sweetener at all. Most TFA flavorings work fine to me as they are, and marshmallow and EM are the only sweet things I generally use.

Really best suggestion is to try with less flavor. Too much flavoring to me tastes either like chemical mess or like nearly nothing at all.

Marshmallow is probably the best sweetener I've had, despite it not being labeled as such.

Less flavor has seemed to pay off, just not in sweetness. Only in flavor.

I mixed up TFA Caramel, Dulce de Leche & Double Chocolate clear at 10% and all are extremely sweet & flavorful. I use a 70PG/30VG ratio & 10% nicotine.

What % did you use? That sounds great. Also, what would I change if I flipped the ratio to 70VG/30PG?

 

[~Sue~Feb2012]

How long since you quit smoking? If Maple Syrup and Caramel Candy don't taste sweet to you without added anything, I don't know what to suggest! Those are sticky sweet to me, and I like sweet vapes.

As HiC stated, how long since you quit? Also many dessert and bakery flavors are sickly sweet for me too now and I have to use less than 1% in most cases, but it wasn't like that in the beginning. When I started DIY I had similar troubles you are having.

Your taste buds may be suffering, depending on how long (and how much) you had been smoking cigs. Hopefully, they'll recover and you can start making some great mixes soon.

Sounds like you might be using too high % and might be over-flavoring which can kill it.

You mentioned heating/steeping. I found that heat can screw up the nic and flavors sometimes. Maybe that's the "toasty" you mention? I've never had a toasty flavor so IDK...or your vaping gear's causing it? I've heard people mention burned taste and it turned out to be the device they were using.

Maybe let your mixes "age" longer without heating them?

Good luck!

 

[MorpheusPA]

Wow, you must have a major sweet tooth! Definitely stock up on sweeteners like marshmallow flavor in that case. Add to taste.

Reports are that some sweeteners can gunk atomizers, but that's just the price you pay. They can always be cleaned and dry-burned.

Raising the VG percentage will increase sweetness--I use 50/50 at the moment and I like it.

Individual taste (a phrase we all seem to hate) comes into play too. I don't like sweet flavors at all, so I don't go higher on VG. The very faint sweetness there is more than enough for me. My base flavor is menthol and cinnamon, neither of which have much in the way of sweet notes.

 

[HilseeJ]

As HiC stated, how long since you quit? Also many dessert and bakery flavors are sickly sweet for me too now and I have to use less than 1% in most cases, but it wasn't like that in the beginning. When I started DIY I had similar troubles you are having.

It's been 2 years. My juices are now beginning to taste right - even professional level. I'll explain the issue below as someone else addressed it.

You mentioned heating/steeping. I found that heat can screw up the nic and flavors sometimes. Maybe that's the "toasty" you mention? I've never had a toasty flavor so IDK...or your vaping gear's causing it? I've heard people mention burned taste and it turned out to be the device they were using.

The toasty taste only came from the VapingZone flavors. I think that's just their juices. This was with their caramels mainly, butterscotch was okay.

Sounds like you might be using too high % and might be over-flavoring which can kill it.

Yeah, it's a delicate balance. TFA Juice Peach tastes pretty good to me at 7.5%, while vanilla cupcake is amazing at 15%. Strange.

Maybe let your mixes "age" longer without heating them?

Heating for as long as I did almost seems unnecessary now. I'll probably drop it to 1 hour. I will definitely be trying this.

Wow, you must have a major sweet tooth! Definitely stock up on sweeteners like marshmallow flavor in that case. Add to taste.

I think I was just "misremembering" what store juices tasted like. I just tried some Skittle store bought, and while the flavor itself might be hard to emulate, I didn't find it any more sweet than the juices I had. It was all perspective.

Reports are that some sweeteners can gunk atomizers, but that's just the price you pay. They can always be cleaned and dry-burned.

This may have been another issue with taste. I was using a 60% EM mixture in some cases (someone in another thread recommended it). I looked at the coil on my RSST - COVERED in black crap even though it wasn't that old. Rebuilt the coil, dropped the absurd amount of sweetener, and we're good.

Again I say, THANKS ALL FOR THE HELP, AND THE ISSUE IS SOLVED. I am happy with my mixes now. In many cases, they don't need sweeteners at all! Banana Nut Bread (TPA) and Vanilla Cupcake (TPA) at 15% taste just fine without any sweeteners. I think I found myself overestimating the sweetness of store-bought juice.

 

[Muero]

Definitely try steeping longer. I'm starting to find a week at least is a good time for any juice to really mature. What I do is make like 100ml on Saturday. Usually, like 30ml is a flavor I really like so I vape that most of the week then come next Saturday I open the steeped flavors and they're usually pretty good. Then, I start mixing for next week. After a couple of weeks you will find that you have a buffer of juice to prevent you from opening the steeping liquids. Many juices start getting their character after a week. For example, one juice I make I added sucralose. After a week I'm starting to find it's almost too sweet.

 

[HilseeJ]

Definitely try steeping longer. I'm starting to find a week at least is a good time for any juice to really mature. What I do is make like 100ml on Saturday. Usually, like 30ml is a flavor I really like so I vape that most of the week then come next Saturday I open the steeped flavors and they're usually pretty good. Then, I start mixing for next week. After a couple of weeks you will find that you have a buffer of juice to prevent you from opening the steeping liquids. Many juices start getting their character after a week. For example, one juice I make I added sucralose. After a week I'm starting to find it's almost too sweet.

That could also be part of the problem. I tried the juices a couple of days later and almost all of them tasted fine.

 

[Pathogenius]

Another thing about EM that most people don't recognize, is that after vaping a juice containing EM, for a few hours afterward, the overall intensity of other juices vaped can be substantially lessened. We don't know if that happens to everybody, but we've seen it reported (and it most definitely happens to both of us).

Thanks for posting this info! Yesterday I happen to experience this clearly, my standard tobacco vape instantly became tasteless after test vaping a fruit mix with some EM in it.

EM seems like it can be (and therefore probably is) used as a weapon in a commercial juice. Grind out a mix that includes a high dose of EM but still tastes great, and then watch fools gravitate to it because it's the only thing that they can taste.

 

[we2rcool]

Thanks for posting this info! Yesterday I happen to experience this clearly, my standard tobacco vape instantly became tasteless after test vaping a fruit mix with some EM in it.

EM seems like it can be (and therefore probably is) used as a weapon in a commercial juice. Grind out a mix that includes a high dose of EM but still tastes great, and then watch fools gravitate to it because it's the only thing that they can taste.

'More than welcome, of course! We're VERY glad to have discovered it (and seen that others had as well). :::grin::: E-juice weaponry - that's hilariously possible.

Just how many cases of 'vapers tongue' should be chalked up to EM? There must be an antidote out there (some kind of "EM neutralizer").

 

[Pathogenius]

'More than welcome, of course! We're VERY glad to have discovered it (and seen that others had as well). :::grin::: E-juice weaponry - that's hilariously possible.

Just how many cases of 'vapers tongue' should be chalked up to EM? There must be an antidote out there (some kind of "EM neutralizer").

I think someone suggested a saline tongue swab. I do a carvicrol tongue swab myself, but I wouldn't recommend that due to the pain involved.

 

[we2rcool]

I think someone suggested a saline tongue swab. I do a carvicrol tongue swab myself, but I wouldn't recommend that due to the pain involved.

When we're testing mixes, we sometimes put a dropperful of saline solution on our tongues and swish it around to "reboot our taste buds", and it seems to help. But we've noticed that high salt foods can cause a 'deadening of taste' (sauerkraut & pickles are the worst). Perhaps the vinegar comes into play, too; we hardly ever snack n' munch on our glorious homemade pickles anymore, cuz we can't taste our vape for hours after eating them. GRRRRR.

What's carvicrol?

 

[Pathogenius]

What's carvicrol?

Anti-fungal/viral/parasite, but it cleans the palette so well a juice tastes like soap after a good tongue clean!

Sorry for the slow response, I only got the first notification.

 

[we2rcool]

Anti-fungal/viral/parasite, but it cleans the palette so well a juice tastes like soap after a good tongue clean!

Sorry for the slow response, I only got the first notification.

No problem! We googled it, and found lots of "variations", so we thought we'd ask. Being herbalists, we're into everything "anti" (viral, parasitical, fungal/mold, bacterial, toxin, etc., blah, blah).

Thanks for letting us know!

 

[hippieben]

I use 1% EM (TFA sweetener) in all my mixes. It doesn't really sweeten at all, but it blends things together well and just makes it all around better. Takes my DIY from janky homebrew to professional tasting.

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