E Juice w/ Alcohol = Positive on PBT... Is this already known?

[Roydub]

I was a military police officer for 12 years until I was injured in Iraq in 2011... Despite that I still have many friends in my local police department and two of them are vapers, there actually the ones who introduced me to it. Anyway, two days ago I asked a question (still being new I am always asking them questions).. I asked if they knew if any e juices resulted in a positive result on a PBT (Portable Breathalyzer Test).. We all assumed that most would not... BUT there are the diyers out there that will add vodka to their e juice to cut bad flavor or water it down..

So I saw this as an opportunity to conduct a little expteriment ... I added 3ml vodka to 7ml of juiceand took a few drags.... After blowing in a PBT it did register at .009 which is FAR below the state legal limit for driving impaired... We waited a couple minutes without vaping and I blew again and to no surprise nothing registered..

I did some searching around and couldn't find anything on the subject so I am not sure if this is even something worth bringing to the attention of the community, and I am new here on the forum so I thought I would just bring it up and see what everyone thought...

Now its important to note that it is highly unlikely that vaping a vodka mixed e juice will result in a PBT reading over .08.. The only people that may run into a snag are those under 21 who's legal limit drops to .02 (subject to state law) and they shouldn't be having vodka anyway to put in there e juice...

The next thing we were "worried" about was for example, you were pulled over by a police officer and against all odds you blew on a PBT and it registered... Then the officer asks the obvious question "how many have you had to drink tonight?"... and your response is "nothing but I have some vodka mixed in my e juice right here"... Could the officer legally charge you with open container? And trust me, there are duche bag police officers that would actually do that...

So my buddies are going to sit down with another friend of ours who is actually a prosecutor and bring that up... Now seriously not that this would ever happen but with vaping becoming more and more and more popular it does warrant the question..

I brought home a PBT yesterday and haven't gotten around to tinkering with different mixes and elapsed time but ill probably start doing that in a day or two... To be honest like I said, I doubt this would ever happen but I thought It would be a good discussion topic just to see what you all thought

 

[towelie]

If its in a dripper is is on open container?

 

[Roydub]

if its in a dripper your screwed!

or there wouldnt be anything left to use against you.... and im not a big fan of driving with a dripper

 

[Susan~S]

Most DIYers I know who thin their juice with alcohol also let the alcohol evaporate during the aging process.

 

[Bunnykiller]

seeing that the amount of ethanol is so minimal and once the juice has been heated ( coil energized) several times the alcohol will evaporate... I serioulsy doubt one can get buzzed off of it while vaping.... probably would get more buzzed breathing nitrious oxide produced by car engines in a traffic jam....

 

[ckquatt]

Here's a little info on alcohol and Alcho-sensors (PBTs). The test measures ethanol that constantly out gasses in your lungs from your blood stream measured in mls volume of breath or blood (when blood is taken).

What you're referring to is what we call a "mouth alcohol" reading. Its the same as someone swishing mouth wash at a traffic stop thinking it will hide the smell of their drinking. When you put that subject on an Alco - sensor they'll blow an astronomical reading, usually .7+ (which would be death if that was a correct lung alcohol reading).

As you saw in your test it quickly dissipates to nothing as you breathe. For the question about under 21, by the time that person got to the office and was put on the Intoxilyzer 5000 or the new 9000 they would read .000. Any officer worth his salt would be doing roadside field sobriety and using the device to back up the findings from the FS tests. For me I never used a box, Standardized Field Sobriety told me all I needed to know. Partly for this very reason. Things can influence the Alco - sensor results.

As for the open container question. This is how I evaluate it. Are you drinking it? Is it a device for drinking? Is it sold for the purpose of drinking and/or intoxication? The answer is no. If that were the case you would be hearing about people getting locked up for open mouthwash bottles or hand sanitizer in thier purse.

Hope this helped answer your questions a little bit!

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[Rsunderl]

Hi, Roydub.

I think this is a great topic for discussion. I've seen a few queries about this issue, and it's going to be good to have someone who can answer with some actual knowledge based on situationally-relevant testing more than on conjecture or tests that aren't relevant to FS situations.

Looking forward to reading the findings of your tests.

 

[ckquatt]

Hi, Roydub.

I think this is a great topic for discussion. I've seen a few queries about this issue, and it's going to be good to have someone who can answer with some actual knowledge based on situationally-relevant testing more than on conjecture or tests that aren't relevant to FS situations.

Looking forward to reading the findings of your tests.

took the quote the wrong way I think.

Nevermind. Carry on.

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[wheelie]

This is a good subject. In Canada we have a 3 tier licence system. The first two tiers is a zero alcohol tolerance. Even .002 you would wind up in court. WOW Interesting study you are preforming. Keep us updated on your testing ect. CHEERS!

 

[danny4x4]

As a layman, I would say it would definitely be under the limit, unless the amount added is equivalent to what is considered over the limit. So unless you're adding A CUP of vodka to let's say 5ml of your juice, and vape it before being tested, (400,500,600 mls) I would say it's still under the limit (for my state). Don't take my word for it.

 

[Mrs C]

Op it's been a while and I can't find the post but awhile back someone claimed that menthol ejuice cause a false positive when they were tested at a traffic stop. iirc The thinking was it could have been from pga being used to disolve the menthol crystals.
It might be interesting to know if menthols do affect the readings.

 

[ckquatt]

As a layman, I would say it would definitely be under the limit, unless the amount added is equivalent to what is considered over the limit. So unless you're adding A CUP of vodka to let's say 5ml of your juice, and vape it before being tested, (400,500,600 mls) I would say it's still under the limit (for my state). Don't take my word for it.

But you're missing the point. That is considered mouth alcohol. That is not what PBTs test. They test deep lung samples from the out gassing of alcohol in the bloodstream. Thats why when you take one you have to blow till you almost pass out.

If anything a sample taken from a vaper with a tiny amount of alcohol in the liquid would be almost non existent and disappears a couple minutes later.

And definately not chargable because I 100% guarantee you would blow 000 when taken for the state administered test i.e. the Intoxilyzer machine.

I know if I did an Alco - sensor test on someone and they blew .009 I'd tell them to have a nice night and drive safe. Thats like the equivalent of a beer or a margarita at a restaurant with dinner. and I'm being generous with that.

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[Roydub]

But you're missing the point. That is considered mouth alcohol. That is not what PBTs test. They test deep lung samples from the out gassing of alcohol in the bloodstream. Thats why when you take one you have to blow till you almost pass out.

If anything a sample taken from a vaper with a tiny amount of alcohol in the liquid would be almost non existent and disappears a couple minutes later.

And definately not chargable because I 100% guarantee you would blow 000 when taken for the state administered test i.e. the Intoxilyzer machine.

I know if I did an Alco - sensor test on someone and they blew .009 I'd tell them to have a nice night and drive safe. Thats like the equivalent of a beer or a margarita at a restaurant with dinner. and I'm being generous with that.

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Yes I also know 100% that if your were unfortunate enough to be brought to the office the Intoxilyzer 5000 wouldnt read anything.. I have no experience with the newer 9000 one.. and you were also right in your earlier post that any officer worth his salt would understand this... But unfortunately there are officers out there that are not worth there salt... Like I said I highly doubt this would ever happen and I understand getting results from mouth vapors which is why the PBT is only supposed to be used AFTER administering other FSTs (field sobriety tests)..

I wasnt bringing all of this up to say for a fact that this could happen... I merely wanted to approach the subject to see if this could possibly cause someone any type of problems in the future.

Edit: I also want to note that when I performed the original test where I got a positive PBT result I blew into it almost immediately after vaping.... This would also indicate that even if you were vaping something like this that by the time you were given a set of FSTs you wouldnt have enough mouth vapor left to read anything on a PBT

 

[retired1]

As was mentioned earlier, anyone that's DIYing is going to allow the alcohol to evaporate out of their batch before vaping it. Otherwise it affects the flavor and defeats the purpose of using an alcohol to begin with.

 

[The Ocelot]

You might want to do some research (or experiment with) high pg levels. Propylene Glycol is an alcohol. I gathered quite a bit of information earlier this year about pg metabolites and gas chromatography, so much that I haven't had time to condense it into a blog. It's possible pg can register on a PBT, as can menthol and perhaps other flavorings.

I believe this was the thread referred to by someone earlier:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...n/488138-warning-dui-mentholated-e-juice.html

Here is some additional information to look over. I can't remember how much of it is relevant, the info is in a large folder I haven't looked at since this summer.

Propylene glycol (PIM 443)

"Propylene glycol causes CNS depression similar to that caused by ethanol but it is only one-third as potent."

"There is no evidence that propylene glycol has been a substance of abuse. Its actions are similar to those of ethanol (thrice weaker) although it is only one-third as potent; [however] propylene glycol could be used as an ethanol substitute if it becomes more readily available or cheaper."

Propylene Glycol Elicits Anxiolytic-like Response in Mice

Another thing to be aware of (it's not in the above documents, but easy to find online) is that propylene glycol metabolizes similarly to ethanol and if co-administered with Disulfiram or Metronidazole can cause an unpleasant reaction. (I learned about the later the hard way.)

 

[rolygate]

Also, the most I ever heard of being added to retail e-liquid is 10% ethanol, and that is a huge amount. The test in the OP mentions 3ml in 7ml, that's 43%.

Ethanol (ethyl alcohol / drinkable spirits) in e-liquid is not of any concern, even if by some chance you register a low reading on a portable breathalyser you still won't register anything on a blood test.

What is of more interest are other compounds that might possibly give a false positive. The main solvent used is PG or propylene glycol, which is an alcohol (although virtually inert in humans), and it can be up to 90% of the refill in some cases. Some flavourings may also create a false positive on a breathalyzer. None of these will give a reading in a blood test.

 

[Roydub]

Thank you for the information Ocelot... I did run into the first one about an hour ago when I was looking around for more info... I have also found a few other informational studies referring to higher PG and mentholated juices... There back home on my other computer so Ill throw them up here or can PM the links to you if your interested in the information for your blog..

Edit: Rolygate, ya I know the original "test" I did was a high volume of alcohol and I know that not allowing it to evaporate (like most do) would be of the most extreme case... I just wanted to find out if it was possible to even read anything on a PBT from vaping... I mixed about 10 different juices today with varying PG/VG levels and a couple with vodka that I will leave to evaporate.. The juices also have different flavors with varying levels added (though I focused more on menthol flavoring) and I am going to start tinkering tonight or maybe tomorrow...

 

[The Ocelot]

Also, the most I ever heard of being added to retail e-liquid is 10% ethanol, and that is a huge amount. The test in the OP mentions 3ml in 7ml, that's 43%.

Ethanol (ethyl alcohol / drinkable spirits) in e-liquid is not of any concern, even if by some chance you register a low reading on a portable breathalyser you still won't register anything on a blood test.

What is of more interest are other compounds that might possibly give a false positive. The main solvent used is PG or propylene glycol, which is an alcohol (although virtually inert in humans), and it can be up to 90% of the refill in some cases. Some flavourings may also create a false positive on a breathalyzer. None of these will give a reading in a blood test.

Actually, it depends on what is meant by "blood test." Propylene glycol has a higher retention time than ethanol, so will not be detected in properly calibrated gas chromatography (as done by your friendly law enforcement forensics lab), but it can show up in a hospital enzymatic assay blood test. However - big however, it is extremely unlikely for someone suspected of a DUI to only be given an assay blood test.

 

[Warpigs]

Driving under the influence of vaping heh.

 

[khalidmna]

Hi Bunnykiller

I have been vaping 0 alcohol eliquid, but the range of liquids is limited. If you're saying the alcohol gets evaporated, does this mean that if I buy regular ejuice and heated the coil for a few minutes this would eliminate all traces of alcohol? This was what I always suspected happened to the alcohol but because of religious reasons I never took the risk. I have searched an answer for this for some time now, but the answers have always been vague, but if given a definite answer this would open all sorts of options for me.