FDA run amuck?

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Savannah33

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Many non smokers and LOTS of ex smokers are of the opinion we should quit or die. They don't like the PV and see it as 'cheating'.
I (and many others) see it as life saving and it looks like certain areas of Govt see it as 'tax avoiding' which is one reason its thought that its being met with such resistance.


I can't tell you how many ex-smokers gave me the, "well I quit cold turkey..why can't you!?" I'm sorry just because you suffered doesn't mean I have to...sorry 'bout your luck I tell them!!! ;)
 

imtheshane

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The pharmaceutical industry stands to lose a lot from e-cigarettes as well. Their NRT products have, at best, a 10% success rate, with about half that still smoke free after one year. If e-cigs become mainstream, then gums, patches, lozenges, and nicotine inhalers will be all but obsolete.

The alphabet soup of anti-smoking groups also stand to lose a lot, as the majority of their funding comes from the pharm industry.
 

Shotline

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I get the cold turkey statement also. I suspect however that it is most likely the pharmaceutical companies. They stand to lose billions if it becomes widely known that PV's make quitting a whole lot easier and their patches and gum are not needed. The tobacco companies can still capitalize on PV's be making the nicotine, however growing and packaging the tobacco I am sure is easier and cheaper for them so they could be in on it as well. Also think of all the anti-smoking groups who stand to lose their funding when they are no longer needed.

Just think of how much money BP has put into research and testing of their patches and gum. They stand to lose that investment if PV's go mainstream.

Government and corporations have a vested interest in keeping people smoking tobacco regardless of what they say in public.
 
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Drozd

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really the people beihind the FDA are the CDC and the groups like the ALA... if you follow the money it's the ALA and groups like campaign for tobacco free kids that run all the quit smoking support lines and seminars ...other of their funding comes from big pharm... and in many states insurance or medicaid pays for a number of NRTs per year... they all have a vested interest in keeping smokers smoking and the dismal success rates of the NRTs...
look at their mission statement...if they ever acchieved it they'd be putting themselves out of a job...and they're high paying jobs at that...

the CDC sets the dollar amount that they think states should be paying for tobacco cessation education and prevention and they've come out and said that they and their partners have worked hard to get where they're at and their fear with the ecig is that people might see it as being more socially acceptable again...

couple that with certain states that have sold thier tobacco settlement money into shares....and then guaranteed them... they used that money for infrastructure and to plug holes in budgets...the money is now all gone...but they've guaranteed those tobacco shares....so if big tobacco does less business and doesnt pay as much into those shares because people are quitting smoking....those states are on the hook for that $....they want smokers to smoke...

and something like e-cigs with somewhere around an 85% success rate hs them all running scared...

they're just using the FDA to do the dirty work because while sure you can sue the FDA you cant get any money out of them....
 

Beyondcr

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Well I just wanted to say I just hit a week without a analog and its all thanks to my e cig :laugh:

Who ever is behind this wanting to ban might as well retire or go jump off a bridge because no e cig laws are going to be changed without a war. Its time that people understand the truth and stop letting this bs to continue. :evil:
 
really the people beihind the FDA are the CDC and the groups like the ALA... if you follow the money it's the ALA and groups like campaign for tobacco free kids that run all the quit smoking support lines and seminars ...other of their funding comes from big pharm... and in many states insurance or medicaid pays for a number of NRTs per year... they all have a vested interest in keeping smokers smoking and the dismal success rates of the NRTs...
look at their mission statement...if they ever acchieved it they'd be putting themselves out of a job...and they're high paying jobs at that...

the CDC sets the dollar amount that they think states should be paying for tobacco cessation education and prevention and they've come out and said that they and their partners have worked hard to get where they're at and their fear with the ecig is that people might see it as being more socially acceptable again...

couple that with certain states that have sold thier tobacco settlement money into shares....and then guaranteed them... they used that money for infrastructure and to plug holes in budgets...the money is now all gone...but they've guaranteed those tobacco shares....so if big tobacco does less business and doesnt pay as much into those shares because people are quitting smoking....those states are on the hook for that $....they want smokers to smoke...

and something like e-cigs with somewhere around an 85% success rate hs them all running scared...

they're just using the FDA to do the dirty work because while sure you can sue the FDA you cant get any money out of them....

That's interesting to say the least. Not that i doubt you one bit but where are you getting that information? I'd like to see it. I went through the County Health department in an attempt to quit. 12 weeks of patches, 8 weeks of classes. In one of the classes we were informed that the money for the patches came from the BT settlement. BT was supplying the nicotine for the patches too. They also informed us that BT can make a pack of cigs for 5 cents! Yes I said 5 cents a pack, that was March of 09.
 

wphsmike

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I can't tell you how many ex-smokers gave me the, "well I quit cold turkey..why can't you!?" I'm sorry just because you suffered doesn't mean I have to...sorry 'bout your luck I tell them!!! ;)

LOL atta girl! I tell people that I like the social aspect of it, and I like the feeling. So, I'm not "quitting" I'm just bettering myself with the PV. :D
 

t9c

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The pharmaceutical industry stands to lose a lot from e-cigarettes as well. Their NRT products have, at best, a 10% success rate, with about half that still smoke free after one year. If e-cigs become mainstream, then gums, patches, lozenges, and nicotine inhalers will be all but obsolete.

The alphabet soup of anti-smoking groups also stand to lose a lot, as the majority of their funding comes from the pharm industry.


You got that right "Shane". It's BP (big pharma) and their tireless supporters, ACS, ALA, etc. that stand the most to lose. BT (big tobacco) actually has a lot to gain since they have the money to railroad FDA approval once they "clarify" their earlier "decision" with an approval of the e-cig to be regulated, sold & taxed. It's coming.
 
In some states, the government makes SEVEN TIMES the amount of profit from a pack of cigarettes that the tobacco company does. The deck really is stacked against us.
That makes it one of the most consistent reliable forms of taxes that they are able to budget as well. The more vapers the bigger the threat becomes.
 

Drozd

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That's interesting to say the least. Not that i doubt you one bit but where are you getting that information? I'd like to see it. I went through the County Health department in an attempt to quit. 12 weeks of patches, 8 weeks of classes. In one of the classes we were informed that the money for the patches came from the BT settlement. BT was supplying the nicotine for the patches too. They also informed us that BT can make a pack of cigs for 5 cents! Yes I said 5 cents a pack, that was March of 09.

as much as I dislike them... a good source is the ALA slati database... which you can find all the tobacco laws and taxes and the yearly report card for each state... Tobacco Laws and Public Smoking Policy -- American Lung Association SLATI (just click on the state)

MO is one of the better ones that seems to have tried to use their tobacco settlement monies responsibly but places like ohio, wisconsin, cali, and NY not so much...cali is one of the ones that guarantees the money too..

Twenty-five percent of all monies received from the Master Settlement Agreement between Missouri and certain cigarette companies are deposited into the fund starting in FY2007 and each fiscal year thereafter. Moneys in the fund do not revert to the state general fund at the end of each biennium. All moneys that are appropriated from the trust fund shall be appropriated to the life sciences research board to increase the capacity for quality of life sciences research at public and private not-for-profit institutions in the state of Missouri as specified.

MO. REV. STAT. § 196.1100 to 196.1130 (2005).

Note: The remaining 75 percent of the annual settlement revenue is directed to the Healthy Families Trust Fund through the annual appropriations process, and used to fund various health and social service programs/services.

but they still got across the board Fs in MO...on their state report card from the ALA and CDC

Grade: F
FY 2010 Tobacco Control Program Funding:
$2,356,691*

CDC Best Practice Rate: $73,200,000 *Includes FY2010 funding from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

that's just for tobacco control prevention and education (see the difference in the amount the CDC wants spent)

It's way more telling if you look at states like Wisconsin, California, New york.... there's one state where when the state sold the tobacco shares the ALA got $10million right at the outset...if you look at the report card for say Wisconsin you see that there government health plans and medicare and medicaid pay for a number of NRTs per year...so theres the money paid out to the big pharm companies...

As for the CDC that info came from here: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/NewsEvents/Newsroom/MediaTranscripts/UCM173405.pdf ..yup the FDA press report but here's what the CDC guy said: (emphasis mine)

Joshua Sharfstein: The- the last person to make initial comments will be Dr. Matthew McKenna. Dr. McKenna is the Director of the Office on Smoking and Health at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. He is a commissioned officer in the United States Public Health Service.
Matthew McKenna: Thanks Dr. Sharfstein for including CDC on the- this very important call today. We at CDC are firmly committed to protecting our nation from tobacco use which is the number one preventable killer in this country. Behavior is responsible for over 400,000 premature deaths each year and every per- for every person who dies from smoking, 20 more suffer from at least one serious tobacco related illness. As a nation we can’t lose our momentum in the fight to end the tobacco use epidemic. We have to maintain our drive to protect all our loved ones of the number one preventable cause of death.
And not only are tobacco products highly addictive but their use is fueled by an industry that’s heavily in new product development. These products are promoted through innovative media that makes smoking appear to be attractive, sexy and maturing to use. These images have no other purpose than to hook new generations of smokers. Just today approximately 3,600 young people will try smoking for the first time and 1,100 will become addicted to tobacco. Without help to quit half of these will die prematurely from this addiction.
Over the last decades our nation has made tremendous progress in protecting our neighbors, family and friends from exposure to second hand smoke, reducing youth initiation and helping tobacco users quit successfully. E-cigarettes closely resemble a real cigarette. Users then exhale a vapor that mimics smoke. Therefore beyond potential harms to the user the use of these products could counter the impact from smoke free laws as well as other policies that have decreased the social acceptability of smoking behaviors.
E-cigarettes stand to reintroduce the appearance of smoking in other wise smoke free environments like malls, restaurants and even day cares. This could potentially impact use tobacco una- initiation in use of real cigarettes.
Now currently we don’t have evidence to support claims as you heard that e-cigarettes are safe for effective quit aid for tobacco users. It’s not clear what the misuse levels are that could lead to nicotine poisoning. But we do have a mountain of evidence demonstrating that the modeling of this behavior by peers, parents and other adults and even actors in the movies makes it more likely that exposed kids will pick up the habit.
As the nations prevention agency we need to protect our youth and the many generations to come from the seduction and influence of any form of tobacco use simulated or real. The CDC’s committed to working with FDA, our communities and our close partners to ensure that the current and future generations of kids do not become victims of the tobacco use epidemic.


and here's the article about the master tobacco settlements and tobacco bonds: Ten years later, tobacco deal going up in smoke - The Red Tape Chronicles - msnbc.com (emphasis mine)
Consider this the next time you see a teenager take a drag on a cigarette: Your state government likely has a financial stake in that kid continuing to smoke. And quite possibly, so does your retirement portfolio.
That was hardly the intention 10 years ago, when a collection of state attorneys general delivered a crushing blow to Big Tobacco. On Nov. 23, 1998, the nation's four largest cigarette sellers agreed to pay $200 billion over 30 years in what seemed like a victory for David over Goliath. The money was supposed to help the states pay for health care and anti-smoking campaigns. Instead, much of it -- even payments that aren't due for 20 years -- has already been spent on politically popular tax breaks through complicated borrowing schemes initiated by Wall Street investment banks.
Because these states have essentially borrowed against future payments from the tobacco industry, they are now dependent on the continued vitality of cigarette sales. If Big Tobacco stumbles, states will be on the hook for these massive, billion-dollar loans. In other words, David and Goliath are now allies.
Where did those loans come from? Perhaps from you. When Wall Street talked 25 states into borrowing against future tobacco payments -- a process known as “securitization” -- it sold bonds to individual investors and mutual funds that buy municipal bonds. Now, they are betting on Big Tobacco, too.
Worse yet, anyone invested in tobacco bonds has been seeing their money go up in smoke. Some bond funds that are heavily invested in tobacco have lost nearly 40 percent of their value this year. The reason for the sharp drop is disputed, but some observers say it's partly attributable to anti-smoking efforts. For the first time, fewer than 20 percent of American adults are smoking, new government statistics show. In other words, good news for the state health department is bad news for the revenue department -- and for the portfolios of those who invested in tobacco bonds.
In fact, none of the fund’s top 10 holdings appeared to have anything to do with government infrastructure projects.
Here's the explanation: Bond issues aren't just for firetrucks and schools anymore. Bond funds can invest in complicated bonds issued by pseudo-government agencies that are ultimately backed by private ventures, such as housing developments. The largest segment of this pseudo-bond market is made up of tobacco bonds -- bonds issued by states that have borrowed against their future tobacco settlement payments.

What are tobacco bonds?
The rush to tap the revenue stream began soon after the tobacco settlement was signed 10 years ago. The cigarette companies agreed to make annual payments that would total $200 billion by 2025. The money was to be divided among the 46 participating states, with New York and California each getting about $700 million a year, Ohio about $300 million, Wisconsin just over $100 million and so on.
It didn't take long for Wall Street to invent a way to take a cut. The creative minds at the now-defunct Bear Stearns investment bank traveled the country making this pitch to statehouses: Why wait for the money? Why not take a lump sum payment up front? Bear Stearns and other Wall Street firms eventually persuaded legislators in most states to “securitize” the payouts by issuing bonds and paying the bondholders back with the annual tobacco payments. The first tobacco bond issue hit in 1999. Soon, states around the country fell in line.
map_tobacco_fix.gif

30 cents on the dollar
Taking the early lump-sum payment has its price, however. Many states receive only 30 or 40 cents on the dollar. In a typical example, Wisconsin would have been entitled to about $5 billion in payments through 2025. Instead, it settled on one payment of $1.6 billion in 2001.
“When you securitize on the municipal market, you lose a lot of money,” said Kevin Olson, who runs the independent Web site MunicipalBonds.com. “It’s not very efficient.”
Through the years, state officials have offered numerous rationales for the benefits of securitization. Five years ago, Don Benton, a Republican state senator in Washington, told USA Today that spending on smoking cessation programs was “a complete waste of money. You'd be hard-pressed to find any citizen who does not know smoking is hazardous to your health." He wanted the money to go instead to infrastructure projects like new roads. "Sitting in traffic for two hours would make you want to smoke," he told the newspaper.
States also say that they prefer the certainty of immediate payments to the uncertainty surrounding the tobacco industry’s long-term future.

The outcome for many states – including California, New York, Ohio and Wisconsin -- is that the tobacco money destined for state coffers in 2010, 2015 and 2025 has already been spent.

'An incentive not to put tobacco out of business'
The irony is that the states and some smaller governmental bodies need tobacco firms to make their payments every year because, to varying degrees, they are on the hook to pay off bondholders if the cigarette companies default. Some, including New York and California, have directly guaranteed their tobacco bond debt with general revenue in order to secure more favorable rates. Others have an implied obligation not to let their bonds default, lest their credit ratings be tarnished.
“They have created mass structural deficits,” said Hans Baden, a lawyer at the Competitive Enterprise Institute, a think tank that has filed a lawsuit claiming that the Master Settlement Agreement is unconstitutional. “They have sold the money they are getting in the future in exchange for money now, based on a gradually dwindling revenue stream. They have retained the risk while selling the money … and now they have an incentive not to put tobacco out of business.”
An interruption in tobacco industry payments would be catastrophic both to state budgets and individual investors. For example, when the tobacco industry threatened to exercise a loophole in the settlement in 2006 and withhold about $1.5 billion in payments, the value of tobacco bonds sank. It happened again in 2007. The price recovered even though the payments remain in dispute, but notice was served of the perilous relationship between governments and the smoking industry.
Critics of the arrangement contend that states that have issued tobacco bonds have no incentive to pass anti-smoking laws or launch advertising campaigns. Doing so could lead to fiscal ruin. So could any additional class-action lawsuit success against the tobacco industry.
Fears that new tobacco litigation could undermine the settlement run so high that 36 states filed briefs in 2003 in support of the tobacco industry after it was hit with a $10 billion judgment from a lawsuit for alleged false advertising.

In the briefs, state officials fretted that the judgment would impair the industry’s ability to make its annual payments and “directly impact important state programs.”

'A real tragedy for our country'
Those state programs often have nothing to do with tobacco.
From the start, the tobacco settlement money was intended to help states pay for health care costs related to smoking illnesses and to fund smoking-cessation programs, though the agreement not bind the states to use it for those purposes.
But to date, only about 3 percent of the tobacco settlement money has gone to cessation efforts, such as "quit smoking" marketing campaigns. Meanwhile, 10 times that amount has been used by state legislatures to plug budget gaps, or by governors to offer tax relief.

tobacco_bondfix2.gif
Though smoking continues to decline in the U.S., it remains a major health problem. Every year, according to the federal Centers for Disease Control, smoking-related illnesses are responsible for $96 billion in health-care expenses. But states have invested only about $3 billion from the settlement fund in the past 10 years on anti-smoking campaigns.


None of the states covered by the settlement spends the amount recommended by the Centers for Disease Control on tobacco-cessation programs. Only nine states pay even half that amount. Meanwhile, 13 states spend less than 10 percent of what the agency recommends. Ohio, for example, will spend $7.1 million on anti-smoking efforts in 2009, compared to the $266 million prescribed by the CDC.

The future of tobacco bond issues
While a substantial amount of the tobacco settlement money has already been spent, some states have held out. But each year, Lindblom said, more dominoes fall.

As for individual investors who are backing tobacco, Loughran – whose fund bought the very first tobacco bond in 1999 -- makes a compelling case that the bonds will recover. Their yields are still higher than other state-issued bonds, he said, and in 10 years there hasn’t been any hint of a default.

"The main risk some people (worry about) is litigation,” he said. “We've identified it as a risk but a very slight risk. In fact the industry has a long winning streak … against class-action lawsuits” -- a 57-case run dating to 1998.
Having state attorneys general filing amicus briefs on your behalf doesn’t hurt, he noted, adding, “They are in our corner.”
That, he suggested, indicates the smoking industry isn’t going anywhere for a long time.


 
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pkj

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I suspect we are up against the government (taxes)
Big tobacco (taking $$$ from their pockets)
Pharmaceutical Companies (sales & development of drugs)

Those are three biggies to .... heads with. That's what I think.

Add to that mix, the anti-smokers who don't know much, if anything, about e-cigs. They are the folks who jump up and down at city council meetings, etc and want e-cigs banned too.

Smokers have been on the receiving end of many poorly written laws and inflated taxes. They are used to putting their hand into your wallet and taking what they want. It's only a matter of time before they wake up and wonder where the Tobacco tax dollars went. They'll be looking at us.

PKJ
 

CaptJay

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I think BT have been pretty quiet on being anti-PV, after all if they become 'legal' they have the best setup to provide the nicotine from all their tobacco farms, and their profits wouldn't suffer if all the suppliers got their nic liquids from BT. They would also jump in making PV of their own although I doubt they'd do such great flavors, and I also doubt a BT PV would be re-fillable by the user (think sealed cartos). They could keep their profits from suffering too greatly by joining in.
BP onthe other hand stands to lose a LOT - drugs, NRT etc etc
Unless 'future PV' are taxable (which i can totally see coming) then many states will suffer financially pretty badly if lots of smokers switch over to using them.
 
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