Finetuning my next blend

[Tona Aspsusa]

I made a juice a few days ago, detailed here, and now I want to perfect it.

This first blend I dubbed "Impro" for "Improvisation", as that was exactly what it was.
Basically it consist of
15% my own tobacco extraction
85% PG/VG (can't remember exact ratio, should be between 65/35 and 80/20 somewhere)
ad 10 ml
to which I added 3 drops of TFA M-type
The nic-level should be around 13mg/ml.

It is quite nice, but a bit dry and a bit "heavy" in many ways.
Weirdly enough it feels "heavier" than a plain mix of just 30% of my extract and 70% PG/VG (at 12mg/ml). The M-type is probably partly responsible for that, even though it is easy to get the impression that the M-type is just adding a bit of nutty/oily/sweet overtones to it.

Now what I would want to make would be pretty close to this, but a bit lighter, a tiny bit less dry and maybe just a little little bit sweeter - but not the M-type sweetness.

So I was thinking I'd try some vinegar or other acid. I have spirit vinegar (10% acetic acid, it says on the bottle), and I also have citric acid (powder). (We probably also have quite a few wine-vinegars, but I thought I'd give those a miss this time - too complex, some might even be sugary, too poorly labeled; I don't care about the grape, but I do care about the acetic acid!)

And then I thought I'd try a tiny amount of ethyl maltol, for body and "near-sweetness".

The M-type I want to keep, but maybe diminsh it a bit. Perhaps 1 drop per 5 ml. Or even less, but that gets complicated.

But I am wondering whether I should diminish the amount of extract even further?
Or maybe substitute some of my first extraction (see the thread I linked above) for part of it?
The diluted no-nic mix (16.6% extract) I made with that is weirdly mellow and smooth - at least when I have tried it alone or for topping up rather neutral/close flavoured cartos with it.

Ideas?

 

[Tona Aspsusa]

Bumping this - I'd really love to hear some ideas - but I also just discovered that my "Impro" seems to have changed!

How dare it!? Here I have been vaping it on and off for about 8-9 days, I take a break from it for just one day, and suddenly the flavour is all different... (Yeah, I'm impatient - I though after standing an hour or so in a warm water bath it wouldn't change much anymore. Lol. Newbie mistake.)

Anyway, the thing that has happened is that it suddenly seems MUCH sweeter. In fact it just seemed so sweet to me that I'm thinking that maybe I'll get some use out of the Bitter Wizard that I bought (back when I thought every vape was just too sweet).

Of course, I could have something weird going on with my tastebuds tonight, so I'll have to confirm tomorrow that it really has changed. And I'll use a new atty and drip - this dramatic change happened after I had re-filled a carto and then just let it sit for 12+ hours.

It also seems to have mellowed a bit - not quite as "compact" or "heavy". But I still feel that it needs something to make it "lighter".
If this analogy makes any sense it is like Guinness or Schlenkerla Rauchbier, and I want to nudge it a tiny bit in the direction of a lightish Czech Lager (let's say Urquell), with the hope that it will end up somewhere around one of the lighter Belgian ales. (Though now this mellowing has already pushed it a bit towards, let's say, the Schlenkerla Rauch Weisse, so the needed nudge towards easy-to-drink is smaller than before.)
Or maybe a better analogy would be a very hoppy IPA, and I want to use it to mix a tasty summer thirst-quencher with some nice lemonade (NOOO! Don't hit me!); make it light and smooth and easy to drink, while still retaining as much of the more complex flavours as I can.

So? Vinegar? More dilute? Way less of the M-type? Anything else spring to mind?

 

[Lyndagayle]

I hate to see a post with no responses and I wish I could help but unfortunately, I totally detest the taste of M-type tobacco. I can't even stand to smell it. If you like the flavor, you can probably salvage your mix. I'd recommend a few drops of apple cider vinegar. That alone will breathe some life into it, especially since it's a tobacco blend. Maybe add a couple of drops of tobacco absolute (diluted with EM and PG). I really like what TA does to just about any tobacco flavor. It seems to make it taste more "real" and less artificial if that makes sense. I wish you luck and wish I could lend more help. Keep us posted!

 

[Sicarius]

Maybe a drop or two of Koolade and some pure grain alcohol to lighten it up.

Ethyl maltol is one of the ingredients to diluted tobacco absolute

 

[pinellaspete]

I would suggest some type of vinegar @ 2 drops per 5ml. This will smooth out the flavor and slow the chemical reactions inside your juice. Your juice will taste better for much longer than if you don't have some type of acid in it. At 2 drops per 5ml you won't taste the vinegar.

CAUTION: My recommendation of 2 drops per 5ml is for vinegar that is 5% acetic acid!

Good luck!

Pete

 

[Tona Aspsusa]

Thanks guys!

Lyndagayle, I've been thinking about TA (I have mixed myself bottles of PG with TA+EM and a bottle of plain EM, but still haven't used either), but it sort feels weird to use that on a juice where the main component is an actual tobacco extract (albeit a rather amateurish one)...
I will definitely have to dial down the M-type! While I liked it initially, now when the juice has matured and sweetened a lot, it is just too overpowering. This was 3 drops to 10ml, I think 1 drop or maybe 2 toothpicks to 10ml would be more suitable.

Sicarius, I don't have any Koolada, but I was thinking about maybe doing a separate experiment with a really small amount of menthol.
Your idea of PGA is interesting - there is already some PGA in my extract, but only about 20%, and the extract was only 15% of this blend. But wouldn't PGA (or vodka) make it drier rather than lighter? Or am I now thinking too much of the mouthfeel of alcohol as drinks, and too little of the solvent properties of alcohol?

PinellasPete. Thanks for the vinegar dosages! I think I should probably dilute my spirit vinegar and make a little bottle of 5% acetic acid for easier handling. Interesting that you mention that it would also act as a stabilizer - that puts yet another spin on it:
I did test my "Impro" blend on a brand new cartomizer, and it wasn't just my tastebuds having an off evening. It has sweetened considerably - somewhere between day 5-6 and day 8 or 9. So has my plainer version (30% extract in unflavoured nicquid). So it isn't the M-type, it is the actual tobacco liquid.

- Oh dear, I haven't tested my undilted extract! Maybe that has undergone this sweetening too! -
I should probably do yet another test to see if anything has happened there.

 

[Tona Aspsusa]

Okay, now I think I am going crazy - OR my initial idea, pre-steep-induced sweetness, was right:

I just fooled around a bit in the kitchen with loads of spirit vinegar, cleaning things by the vinegar-soda method. Great fun. But of course I smelled (=inhaled) quite a lot of vinegar, got it on my hands, tasted it (I like vinegar! Even non-wine vinegar).
So I go sit down, drip a few drops of my previously far too sweet, but a bit more mellow than before, "Impro" blend:

That over-sweetness is *gone*, and at least part of the original "heaviness" is back!
And this just from a tiny bit of vinegar in my mouth ten minutes ago, and some lingering vinegar-y scent on my hand (must go wash my hands properly with soap and see if that makes a difference. ETA: nope, scrubbed hands and changed clothes didn't make a difference. I drew the line at rinsing my nostrils, though - which is where I suspect one or two molecules of acetic acid are still hanging out, as some of that sweetness is now returning to the "mouth-taste" of the vape, but being totally overpowered/neutralized by the "total taste").

OK, so vinegar is definitely the way to go here. The question that remains is whether to add some EM or not. And some pondering about "lightness" vs "heaviness".

 

[Tona Aspsusa]

OK, so I think this will be it:
50% VG
40% PG (with nic for a strength of ~13mg/ml)
10% Extract

PLUS: 1 drop vinegar, 1 drop M-type, 1 drop 10% EM in PG - or maybe just a "toothpick drop".

Making 10ml, and I'll be re-using the bottle from the last blend without washing it out, so I expect some residual M-type molecules to transfer, hence going directly from 3 drops/10ml (with 15% extract) to 1 drop/10ml.

I'm hoping that upping the VG (it was around 20-30% in the last blend) will maybe make it less "heavy" - this characteristic is very hard to describe; it is dry and a little harsh, without being too thin. FA Camtel Ultimate has some of this (plus that certain weird-ish taste).

This is fun!

 

[Tona Aspsusa]

So I did the mix above, and solemly named it "Theory".
I haven't tested it yet, and decided to let it stand (in a warm place) at least until tomorrow before I try it. When I sniff it now I mainly only smell the tabanone of the M-type so far (but this was the case with the last blend too, even though it initially was very "dry" and "harsh" when vaped).

That later-to-develop sweetness of the first mix intrigues me a bit - I can think of several reasons for it:
1. The harsher notes of the tobacco extract degrades with time (breaking down into simpler sugars even?).
2. The harsher notes of the tobacco extract gets better mixed with the PG/VG, and hence are more masked
3. The M-type in time overpowers everything

And then there's the whole family of hypotheses relating to acidity:
4. Some acidic element present from the extraction degrades/oxidizes/gets more blended in with time, hence creating the impression of sweetness.

Or:
5. The pga in the extract (at most 3% in the juice) evaporates, exposing the inherent PG/VG sweetness more

Or:
6. The nic (about 12mg/ml, plus possible traces from the extraction) oxidizes, again exposing the inherent sweetness

I've been dripping some plain no-nic VG/PG/DW (about 80/15/5) today, and marvelling at the difference between that and my usual unflavoured 13mg/ml vape. The sweetness of VG is so prominent that I am not at all surprised that I initially (before I had tasted juices with nic in them) thought people here were nuts to be asking for advice on sweetening their juices!


I did make another, less theoretical, juice yesterday too. Starting with the slops from my first blend I did:
~1.2 ml of the old blend
~0.5 ml PGA (washing out the old bottle)
2 ml of my first extraction (details [url="http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/liquid-extraction-tobacco/255313-impatient-newbie-strikes-again.html#post4969214]here[/url])
3 ml 13mg/ml unflavoured 85/15 PG/VG
4 drops of 5% orangeflavoured 10mg/ml 65/35 PG/VG juice
1 drop 5% vinegar
1 drop EM (in PG)

This I have been vaping quite a lot, and it is nice and very light (but *tastes* absolutely horrible on the tip of my tongue, I will never ever try to taste a juice again, lol!).
The orange isn't noticeable as a separate taste, and I'm thinking of adding a bit more of that. The viscosity is also a bit on the thinnish side - too much PGA, and that first extract is also very thin in consistency. Maybe add a bit more VG too.

I feel very lucky with my two "slops bottles" so far! My first was an over-strong FA Virginia that I turned into an all purpose menthol base, and now this second one is off to a good start

 

[pinellaspete]

Tona,

Its all about the balance of sweetness and sour. PG,VG and EM are all very sweet and alkaline. VG is a lot sweeter than PG. You need to add more acid (vinegar, citric, malic or tartaric) to your juice and it WILL reduce the sweet flavor. Think of how almost everything we drink is acidic. Coke, Pepsi, wine, fruit juices, coffee, tea and even milk are all acidic. Coke and Pepsi are loaded with sugar but also contain phosphoric and malic acid to balance all that sugar. Coke and Pepsi are VERY sweet but also VERY acidic with a pH of 3.5. (7.0 is neutral)

It has been my experience that vinegar is best with tobacco flavors, and malic and citric acid work better with fruit flavors. You could probably use as much as 4 drops per 5ml of vinegar in your mix before you will be able to taste it. It will STABILIZE your juice. These problems with your juice changing flavors will slow dramatically. If you don't get your juice pH under control and below 7.0, the chemical and bacterial reactions that take place inside your juice will keep happening at a fast pace.

Good luck!

Pete

 

[Tona Aspsusa]

Thanks Pete, you are being very very helpful.

Its all about the balance of sweetness and sour.

This. Is it as simple as this?

In cooking and eating "Sweet" can be countered by acid, but also by bitter or by salt. (And by umami - the combination of salt+umami is especially powerful - which is why a bottle of soy sauce (or Maggi, or liquid broth-concentrate) is so very useful in cooking.)

And "Sweetness" is such a complex thing when we are talking vapour based on VG/PG.
It seems to me that I would actually need several different words to describe different aspects of what "sweet" is in the context of a tobacco-flavoured vapour. There's the sugar/candy/dessert sweet and then there's the "round and moist" sweet. And a few more characteristics I can't really describe.

Yesterday when I was vaping both plain VG/PG (VG dominated) and an unflavoured nic mix (PG dominated), one thing that struck me was how the addition of nicotine tones down the inherent sweetness; makes the vape more "dry", but also less "dessert/candy -sweet". (Of course, comparing mostly VG to mostly PG might also influence this a lot, but I do think the 13mg/ml nic addition is the more important factor here.)

I should actually blend a few bottles of straight VG + acid just to taste for myself what exactly it is that a slight acidity does!

You could probably use as much as 4 drops per 5ml of vinegar in your mix before you will be able to taste it. It will STABILIZE your juice.

Now this gives me an idea, especially when working with non-commercial extracts: would it perhaps be possible to add acid (or more acid) only when the juice has ripened to the desired taste?

The idea being that you want some of the natural processes to take place, but you want to stop them at a certain point.

I'll dig out a new atty & carto now and test my Theory blend. If I find it too "harsh" or "heavy" I'll let it steep a bit more before adding more spirit vinegar (according to Pete's advice I should have room for 7 more drops), if it is too sweet or mellow I'll add the acid right away and then think about maybe cracking open my Bitter Wizard if that hasn't corrected it by tomorrow.

 

[Tona Aspsusa]

First impression, dripped in a new SR 510 atty:

Weird. Very, very weird.
Compared to "take one", it is like the substantial "body" of that one is still there, but the taste is very muted (as is the "harshness").
But weirdest of all: there's this hint of what I can only call "pickling juice"!

I double-checked my notes, and the only new ingredients are 1 drop EM (~10% solution in PG) and 1 drop spirit vinegar diluted to 5% acetic acid. I should absolutely not be able to taste the vinegar at this concentration!

Does it take long for the vinegar to properly blend in? It has now been almost 48 hours since this was mixed.

It will be interesting to see how this juice behaves in a carto (boge 2 ohm), will update once I have tested that.

Update: Now vaping it in a carto. Much better! Still a bit too sweet for my taste, but that "pickling spice" note is almost totally absent. Nice body, but too little taste.
[ETA:] It also has a fantastic "juicy-ness" or "moistness" to it, that was overshadowed by the sweetness when dripped. Hmm, would this point to the vinegar?

Since I posted above I vaped about 0.3 ml by dripping on my new atty. And I think what I am picking it is a combination of the EM (which I really, really shouldn't be able to taste at that concentration) and the higher VG, rather than the vinegar. On further vaping (by drip), it became very apparent that the thing that really bugged me was this caramell-y (in the sense of burnt sugar) taste/feel. I would acclimatize to the actual taste, but the back of my throat felt like I had sucked on very caramell-y hard candy (like those very very sweet coffeflavoured drops) non stop for hours.
I am getting much less of this in the carto - I don't know if it is the lower resistance, or the filler material filtering out some of this.

While trying to solve the conundrum of what this über-sweet unpleasantness could be, I also drip-vaped a very plain mix of 30% extract in 50/50PG/VG (so similar to my current blend), just to see if I was just having an über sweet day, or whether it is my extract that has continued to sweeten. Result:
Nope, the plain extract juice is about how it was a few days ago - sweeter than initially, but no hint of this "too much burned sugar".

I don't really know what to do now. In a carto this blend is pleasant, but just a touch too sweet, and lacking in flavour.
Options include:
1. More extract
2. More vinegar
3. Bitter wizard

The first I think is a given - it needs more oomph in the flavour department.
The two later are in need of more thought (vinegar) and more reading (BW).

Maybe I should start with more extract, let it stand a day or so, and revisit it?

 

[Jimi D.]

I had the same problems with the vinegar. I added more flavor to the mix, and the vinegar taste came back after a few days. So in theory I wind up wasting more flavor. Which can get a bit expensive. I will continue to use Vape wizard, when I actually need it. Try this: make up a batch without the vinegar, and add 1% of Bavarian cream.. Keep us posted. I had a second opinion by a Flavor maker, and he said he never heard of anyone using vinegar in their juices. He said, I would not recommend it.

 

[Jimi D.]

Tona,

Its all about the balance of sweetness and sour. PG,VG and EM are all very sweet and alkaline. VG is a lot sweeter than PG. You need to add more acid (vinegar, citric, malic or tartaric) to your juice and it WILL reduce the sweet flavor. Think of how almost everything we drink is acidic. Coke, Pepsi, wine, fruit juices, coffee, tea and even milk are all acidic. Coke and Pepsi are loaded with sugar but also contain phosphoric and malic acid to balance all that sugar. Coke and Pepsi are VERY sweet but also VERY acidic with a pH of 3.5. (7.0 is neutral)

It has been my experience that vinegar is best with tobacco flavors, and malic and citric acid work better with fruit flavors. You could probably use as much as 4 drops per 5ml of vinegar in your mix before you will be able to taste it. It will STABILIZE your juice. These problems with your juice changing flavors will slow dramatically. If you don't get your juice pH under control and below 7.0, the chemical and bacterial reactions that take place inside your juice will keep happening at a fast pace.

Good luck!

Pete

An orange has a ph level of 4.6, so If you adjusted the ph level to 7.0, would we taste it?

 

[Jimi D.]

Redirect Notice This should help everyone. If you make the e liquid at 7 ph, it will taste like pure water.

 

[pinellaspete]

Jimi D. this is the DIY forum, most of us are here to help each other and learn how to improve our juices. It is not about buying flavor enhancers from vendors. That is why this is called the DIY forum Jimi D.! The DIY stands for DO IT YOURSELF!

Jimi D. you seem to have a problem with me telling other members to add acids to their juices. Everyone, including you Jimi D. needs to read this link if you don't believe me.

Here's the link: http://www.bartek.ca/pdfs/SelfTeachingGuide/STG.pdf

You can't find a food or beverage in the grocery store that doesn't contain 1 of these acids.

Pete

 

[Jimi D.]

Jimi D. this is the DIY forum, most of us are here to help each other and learn how to improve our juices. It is not about buying flavor enhancers from vendors. That is why this is called the DIY forum Jimi D.! The DIY stands for DO IT YOURSELF!

Jimi D. you seem to have a problem with me telling other members to add acids to their juices. Everyone, including you Jimi D. needs to read this link if you don't believe me.

Here's the link: http://www.bartek.ca/pdfs/SelfTeachingGuide/STG.pdf

You can't find a food or beverage in the grocery store that doesn't contain 1 of these acids.

Pete

Pete.. Sorry you feel that way, although I am only going by my findings on the vinegar ,that I DIY'ed myself. This is only my opinion, and from a flavor makers...Nothing more.

 

[pinellaspete]

Yeah...The Flavor maker you talked to Jimi D. doesn't want you to know that if you stabilize your juice you will be making better juice that needs less flavor and you won't be buying as much flavor from them. They are laughing all the way to the bank.

I know for a fact some vendors use vinegar and these other acids in their juices.

Pete

 

[Jimi D.]

Not true man.. This flavor maker does not use Flavourart and is based in Pennsylvania.

 

[pinellaspete]

Jimi D.,

Please check this link. It will only take 1 minute. Read the definition for E-Juice on this page. It gives their list of ingredients.

Her's the link: Learn

Thanks,

Pete