First PG, now flavours.

[Pictor]

I seem to have been fine since changing to VG after finding the PG gave me some issues. It meant changing a lot of what I was using, but fairly happy about it apart from one thing: changing to VG seems to have shown up another problem with certain flavours.

I'd suspected I had a problem with Vanilla type flavours when still using the pre-filled mostly PG cartridges, and it's even more noticeable since changing to VG.
After searching on the forum, I found a lot of info about the Vanilla/Custard/Caramel type flavours regarding some people finding they're having issues such as breathing problems etc., when these flavours are used in e-liquid.

Amongst that info was a link to The Perfumers Apprentice site which has a comprehensive article about these flavours and the substances often found in them that are responsible for causing some people these problems with e-liquids. (diacetyl, acetoin, acetyl propionyl).

Also, when going to the section on their site for this type of flavour, full information is given about each flavour as to whether it contains any such substances whether it be in full form, mere traces, or none at all. They've eliminated them altogether from a few cream and vanilla type flavours including a French Vanilla. A few others have mere traces.

They're to be admired for producing such honest and valuable information.

Not so when I contacted one particular supplier of a vanilla type liquid which I really like, but have only used briefly until I can find out more about it.
This is their reply:Thank you for the e-mail. We appreciate the concerns you have. We have not had customers report any experiences like those you mention, though if you are concerned about these ingredients we would suggest to not use the V----. I hope this helps and please let us know if there is anything else we can do for you. Have a great rest of your day!

Reading between the lines, I'm assuming that this one does contain one or more of the ingredients, but find the reply to be less than helpful with such a valid request for seemingly simple information. Why they can't state categorically whether any of these substances are in that particular one is beyond me.
Other suppliers do sometimes offer the information that they do not use diacetyl, and that is helpful, but seeing that article states that acetoin can actually produce degrees of diacetyl, and acetyl propionyl can also be used, it would be nice if all suppliers were more open with known possible irritants.
Some also state which flavour brand is in their liquids too, and that again is helpful.

I have had two other responses from different suppliers who, when asked the same question actually confirmed that they do not use any flavours containing those substances, and that's reassuring. Sadly, the one I do have that's a lovely vanilla type flavour also has 20% PG.
I've now asked the same question of an e-liquid supplier that I've got quite a number of liquids from recently, and hopefully I'll be able to find a really nice one that gives me no problems.

I emphasise that just as some people find varying degrees of sensitivity to either PG or VG alike, also, some people can have similar problems with certain flavourings.

 

[djsvapour]

I shall return to this later.

Just to say, I was quite unwell and had a rash all over my body from using a certain "source" of flavouring about a year ago.

I binned them, and have suffered no more since.

 

[vangrl27]

Sadly, just asking a vendor whether they use these ingredients is not very helpful, most vendors are going by what the flavor manufacturers tell them, and that's turning out to be not very accurate

 

[Codz]

Interesting - I can see why Diacetyl would appear in the kind of juices you are talking about as it produces a buttery flavour and it's use as a food flavouring is pretty widespread. Before it's use in e-liquids it had been linked to breathing problems and in particular lung disease, so you would assume that if it caused these kinds of problem in food then something affecting the lungs would be more of an issue when inhaled rather than eaten.

A lot of vapers are very defensive about testing on the potential harmful effects of vaping and rightly so as we are all suspicious about who funds the tests, what they are looking for, how the 'facts' will be represented, etc, but issues like these do show that there need to be more tests, preferably of the independent kind, but with everyone seemingly having an agenda of their own it's unlikely we will get any unbiased reports any time soon. The most likely sources of funding for future testing are anti-vaping and it can be legitimately argued that tests funded by pro-vaping sources are as likely to be biased results too.

 

[Pictor]

I shall return to this later.

Just to say, I was quite unwell and had a rash all over my body from using a certain "source" of flavouring about a year ago.

I binned them, and have suffered no more since.

Seems mostly, we have to use trial and error!

Sadly, just asking a vendor whether they use these ingredients is not very helpful, most vendors are going by what the flavor manufacturers tell them, and that's turning out to be not very accurate

I've asked two and neither have particularly forthcoming.
A second main supplier gave me this reply: There are NO harmless aromas or e-liquids in the world. If you are too sensitive to e-liquids don't vape at all.
Not a particularly polite nor helpful response I thought. I didn't ask about 'harmless' or 'harmful', merely inclusions that are known to give some people adverse reactions. For me though, not being able to breathe is pretty harmful to be honest, but that's perhaps being pedantic. Anything we use can cause problems for a percentage of the population, but it does seem that this group of flavours has a particular problem with some.

The best information didn't even need to be asked for as it's there on their site as linked to elsewhere on the ECF forum: Perfumer's Apprentice
It's pointed out in that article that acetoin can, pre-blending, catalyse into diacetyl, thus causing trace amounts in varying degrees to be present. There are even two French Vanilla's: one with, one completely without the acetoin etc.
They go on to point out any such inclusions on each flavour in the Chocolate & Vanilla flavour section.

TPA are to be applauded for their informative attitude.

Interesting - I can see why Diacetyl would appear in the kind of juices you are talking about as it produces a buttery flavour and it's use as a food flavouring is pretty widespread. Before it's use in e-liquids it had been linked to breathing problems and in particular lung disease, so you would assume that if it caused these kinds of problem in food then something affecting the lungs would be more of an issue when inhaled rather than eaten.

A lot of vapers are very defensive about testing on the potential harmful effects of vaping and rightly so as we are all suspicious about who funds the tests, what they are looking for, how the 'facts' will be represented, etc, but issues like these do show that there need to be more tests, preferably of the independent kind, but with everyone seemingly having an agenda of their own it's unlikely we will get any unbiased reports any time soon. The most likely sources of funding for future testing are anti-vaping and it can be legitimately argued that tests funded by pro-vaping sources are as likely to be biased results too.

As with anything, undeniably neutral bodies should assess such things, and certainly not government instigated.
Seeing a company doing their own tests and publishing them openly is helpful, but again, not perhaps neutral enough.
What is needed are groups of volunteers who will test liquids properly and document their experience with them.
A good start would be to try and define just what percentage of people on average are sensitive to things such as PG, VG and specific flavourings.

I'm definitely very sensitive to anything more than very small amounts of PG, and have similar problems with the cream/vanilla/butter flavours, and some toffee/caramel.
I tried three liquids with creamy custard type flavours last week, and by evening one or all caused my throat to become so raw, it bled briefly before almost totally closing up, and making my lungs feel like rocks. I could still not breathe clearly by the following morning so stayed with tobacco and menthol liquids for the day.

Having both manufacturer and end user suppliers be totally open about the content of flavouring would go a long way to even better trust of the electronic cig industry.
Anything that helps prevent total control of this industry by government is surely a good thing. The fewer adverse reaction reports they see the better, so total disclosure to enable people to cautiously test or avoid such things would help.

It was good to read the report by the Royal College of Physicians too even if there was one point I didn't totally agree with.

 

[vangrl27]

um wow
"A second main supplier gave me this reply: There are NO harmless aromas or e-liquids in the world. If you are too sensitive to e-liquids don't vape at all."


Do you mind disclosing where you bought these from?
"I tried three liquids with creamy custard type flavours last week, and by evening one or all caused my throat to become so raw, it bled briefly before almost totally closing up, and making my lungs feel like rocks."

 

[Pictor]

um wow
"A second main supplier gave me this reply: There are NO harmless aromas or e-liquids in the world. If you are too sensitive to e-liquids don't vape at all."

Well that company did say they don't use those ingredients, but it was a very short, sharp reply and I'm not 100% convinced ...but who knows! It all depends on the knowledge of the person replying I suppose. Perhaps not every company rep is aware that acetoin can catalyse into diacetyl before blending.

Do you mind disclosing where you bought these from?
"I tried three liquids with creamy custard type flavours last week, and by evening one or all caused my throat to become so raw, it bled briefly before almost totally closing up, and making my lungs feel like rocks."

Oh my - I'll need to get that one right, and I'm not totally sure that it's the thing to do! Still, if the forum sees fit to edit this post, I'll quite understand.
One was Mystic Eldorado (wonderful but it has 20% PG in it so I didn't dare use too much of it). They did tell me that theirs contain none of those ingredients ...but it does taste very vanilla/custardy.
Another was JC Red Oak Vanda, and my favourite of the three I think, but that was the company that gave me this non-committal reply:
We have not had customers report any experiences like those you mention, though if you are concerned about these ingredients we would suggest to not use the Vanda
I suspect this was likely the one that gave me the most trouble because it was the one I used the most that day. The fact they didn't give any real confirmation as to whether it does contain those substances, makes me think I'll have to avoid that one completely too.
As for the third, I'm not 100% sure as it could be one of two ..not totally sure which one arrived on that day.

What I have done is order some of the TPA flavouring that indicates zero or only a trace of acetoin etc. I'm hoping that adding a little to some standard flavours will give me at least a creamy or slight vanilla edge - can but try!

If people knew which suppliers used TPA flavours in this type of liquid, it would be easy to ask them which one(s) were included in the liquid, and use the information on the TPA site to decide whether or not it would be likely to give any problems.
Some suppliers do mention the flavour brand, and with others it's a case of the name of the individual liquid being a clue, but not an exact science.

Furthermore, if all flavour manufacturers gave such helpful information, it would also be very useful.

Thankfully, not everyone has any kind of reaction to this type of thing, but for those of us that find we do, more information would help us be more selective and make appropriate choices.
I certainly appreciate suppliers that are helpful with customer queries.

 

[Codz]

As with anything, undeniably neutral bodies should assess such things, and certainly not government instigated.
Seeing a company doing their own tests and publishing them openly is helpful, but again, not perhaps neutral enough.
What is needed are groups of volunteers who will test liquids properly and document their experience with them.
A good start would be to try and define just what percentage of people on average are sensitive to things such as PG, VG and specific flavourings.

I'm definitely very sensitive to anything more than very small amounts of PG, and have similar problems with the cream/vanilla/butter flavours, and some toffee/caramel.
I tried three liquids with creamy custard type flavours last week, and by evening one or all caused my throat to become so raw, it bled briefly before almost totally closing up, and making my lungs feel like rocks. I could still not breathe clearly by the following morning so stayed with tobacco and menthol liquids for the day.

Having both manufacturer and end user suppliers be totally open about the content of flavouring would go a long way to even better trust of the electronic cig industry.
Anything that helps prevent total control of this industry by government is surely a good thing. The fewer adverse reaction reports they see the better, so total disclosure to enable people to cautiously test or avoid such things would help.

It was good to read the report by the Royal College of Physicians too even if there was one point I didn't totally agree with.

That sounds dreadful (the reaction causing your breathing difficulties). I'm glad it's just certain elements of certain liquids that are causing you this though as it would be a shame if you had to stop vaping as a result of it. I guess i am lucky as i havent experienced any adverse reactions from any of the juices i have vaped and a fair few of them have been vanilla/custard type juices as these are amongst my favourites. A lot of vendors that offer VG only juices do state that it's almost impossible to make a juice 100% VG because so many of the flavourings used include PG.

The trouble is that anti-vaping organisations/people will use stories like your own to scare people off vaping and add to the calls for various bans and regulations. To be honest, there probably should be more regulation than there is now. Some people like yourself and djsvapour will develop allergic reactions to certain elements within eliquid - PG seems to be the best known cause of potential reactions, but as you have highlighted there are other ingredients in there that can cause reactions too - perhaps these need to be excluded from use, or at least carry a warning on the label where they have been used.

Again, this brings us back to testing and regulation though and the question of who can afford to a) do the testing and b) afford to produce eliquid if and when it is regulated. I'm pretty sure that the likely regulations on production of eliquid would mean 90%+ of the current vendors disappearing (disclaimer: I am not saying that 90%+ of the current vendors make poor quality juice, just that they wouldnt be able to afford the costs involved in adhering to the potential regulations).

 

[Pictor]

Yes, finding the throat closing and lungs feeling solid is very unpleasant, and thankfully, it passes after some hours. I'd absolutely hate to go back to smoking after feeling such a great sense of achievement (and surprise).
Thankfully, the small amount of PG in flavourings doesn't seem to give me any problems.
Any such problem that I can resolve, will enable me to keep on using the e-liquids etc rather than go back to cigarettes. As things stand right now, it's unlikely I'll go back to smoking - there's far too many advantages in not doing so. It's very liberating too.

I think as time goes on, more will be known and learned about things used for e-liquid and associated equipment, and any issues dealt with, so it is important that suppliers/manufacturers embrace any information that comes their way in order to deal with it before it does become a problem that is more noticeable by those who would interfere.
That is why I approached suppliers and manufacturers direct in the hope that I could better understand which flavours would be likely to contain or produce more or less of these substances so that I could choose accordingly.
To me, it's the same as asking whether a product contains natural sugar or synthetic sweeteners, or is alcohol free, etc.
If we can see what is in foodstuffs & over the counter medications we buy by reading the label, why not with those such as flavourings etc.?
Flavourings are obviously no different to some people avoiding PG, so it does need to have that fact emphasised rather than demonising such flavours.
They are not particularly 'unsafe' but can cause certain people to have a unpleasant reaction to them ...nothing more sinister than that.
If most have eliminated diacetyl then the other issues need addressing.

Millions of people worldwide are sensitive to one or more substance: cleaning products, perfumes, air fresheners, foods, pharmaceutical drugs.
I also have a small problem with certain strong household cleaners in that they cause me a little throat and sinus congestion (sinuses much improved since stopping smoking!)
I had a bad reaction to a Blood Pressure medication some years ago, and my husband had really bad side effects from statins. He cannot use bleach based cleaning products either as they cause him to get a sore nose/throat.
Normally, none of us suffer any type of allergy.

It seems more and more people each day are taking up e-cigs, and the less problems they encounter, the better for the future of both the industry and us, the end users, thousands, no millions of which have managed to stop smoking by using them.
Also, the fewer problems newcomers to e-cigs encounter, the less likely they are to go back to smoking cigarettes, and that is surely the most important factor for all concerned.

So far, I have only seen the one flavouring producer that not only addresses the whole diacetyl/acetoin/acetyl propionyl issue, they give full and detailed information.
If there are others, then good, the more the better, and I'd welcome knowing which. It demonstrates a great sense of responsibility and care.
There are quite a number who do state that no DEG (Diethylene glycol) or Diacetyl is used, but it seems that this alone isn't enough information for those encountering problems with specific flavours.

You're right about testing being costly in most cases, so if suppliers of both raw materials and end user goods welcome information and comments from their customer base, then it would surely enable them to collate and use such information so that they can deal with any issues and give options where possible.

I have been very lucky to find a very helpful supplier of e-liquid who can not only provide me with the whole range in a VG only base, but is willing to answer any other queries I may have. It allows me to make an informed decision when buying new e-liquids etc.

I seek to protect the ever more widespread use of e-cigs and liquids. When purchased from reliable sources they're very effective, extremely good, and easy to use without any outside interference or monitoring.
The wealth of information to be found on this forum is invaluable, plus there's a vast amount of information regarding reliable and good suppliers with sound ethics.

 

[Rab D]

Perhaps DIY flavouring is the way to go, as then you're (reasonably) sure what you're vaping?

Although I did read one post from a chemist who said just because it's "natural" doesn't mean it isn't harmful. Whereas the artificial flavouring is designed to include only a specific range of chemicals, using natural products doesn't exclude anything potentially nasty.

I read on t'internet (so it must be true) that vanilla is the easiest flavour to produce yourself. So I bought a packet of 30 vanilla pods off ebay (fiver), 100 small test tubes (£15), a rack (another fiver) and at the moment they're steeping in a bottle of VG out of Boots. (In hindsight it would have been easier to have stuffed them all in one big bottle - I must have been channelling Walter White at the time...) After 6-8 weeks, in theory should be able to just add nicotine base and be good to go. VG isn't very good for infusion, so it takes a long time.

I'm not sure as a noob if I'm allowed to post links to the sites I found, on which the above ludicrous experiment is based, but I'll try.

The first two are for home-made e-juice recipes; the third is about making vanilla extract as a food flavouring (photographs!); and the fourth is to a US vendor of flavourings who apparently goes to great lengths to make a "natural" product (and prices reflect this).

http://www.reddit.com/r/DIY_eJuice/comments/1sost6/creating_extracts_to_be_used_in_ejuice/

http://www.reddit.com/r/DIY_eJuice/comments/1sfko4/what_is_the_best_way_to_make_your_own_ejuice/

Recipe for Gluten Free, Sugar Free Homemade Sugar-Free, Alcohol-Free Vanilla Extract

Natures Flavours

 

[Pictor]

I do seem to be gradually sifting through various brands and flavours and getting a fair number that I can use. Been tough at times though!
The vanilla pods steeping sounds interesting! did you just put all of those whole pods into a 100ml? bottle VG ? Let us know how it turns out!

Not sure I want to go further than mixing some concentrates with some ready made VG nicotine base, but I'll check out those links you gave! Thank you

 

[Rab D]

I do seem to be gradually sifting through various brands and flavours and getting a fair number that I can use. Been tough at times though!
The vanilla pods steeping sounds interesting! did you just put all of those whole pods into a 100ml? bottle VG ? Let us know how it turns out!

Not sure I want to go further than mixing some concentrates with some ready made VG nicotine base, but I'll check out those links you gave! Thank you

I first sat a 200ml bottle of VG in a pan of warm, not hot, water to reduce its viscosity; then cut the pods lengthways down the middle; and then into three parts, so they would fit in the test tubes. Topped up with VG, put in stopper, and placed in rack. Took a couple of hours, with all the washing and spilling and washing; using a bottle would have been much quicker. I remember now, my thinking in using test tubes was - if one pod is "off" (I know nothing about vanilla) then it won't spoil the lot; and I can use 2-3ml at a time without disturbing the rest, and that way find out how long they need to be kept to get a good flavour. I'll post back in a few weeks!

Next project is a DIY magnetic stirrer, as I read the greatest difficulty with making good home-made e-liquid is getting the ingredients really thoroughly mixed. There are lots of videos on Youtube; you get your paws on an old computer hard drive, take out the magnet, and glue it to the hub of a computer fan. Then mount the fan horizontally in a box or enclosure, so the magnet can rotate freely under something for a jar or beaker to sit on (under the lid of a cigar box, in one case on Youtube). Buy a "flea" (a plastic-coated metal pellet) off ebay (another fiver), place in beaker with ingredients to be mixed, and connect up to PC - should be able to browse ECF while it mixes! Really, it's just an excuse for me to buy an Erlenmeyer flask (yet another fiver); Walter White uses Erlenmeyers!

It's all a bit mad but not so crazy I think as smoking 25 a day for fifteen years!

In meantime, I've ordered a sampler pack from Smoke Rainbow of Virgin Vapors; they do e-juices made with organic flavourings (about 20 samples of 1ml each for about £20; just enough to find out if you like them).

 

[Pictor]

I first sat a 200ml bottle of VG in a pan of warm, not hot, water to reduce its viscosity; then cut the pods lengthways down the middle; and then into three parts, so they would fit in the test tubes. Topped up with VG, put in stopper, and placed in rack. Took a couple of hours, with all the washing and spilling and washing; using a bottle would have been much quicker. I remember now, my thinking in using test tubes was - if one pod is "off" (I know nothing about vanilla) then it won't spoil the lot; and I can use 2-3ml at a time without disturbing the rest, and that way find out how long they need to be kept to get a good flavour. I'll post back in a few weeks!

Yes, do. It'll be interesting to hear how it goes! Won't it need some sort of sweetener?

Next project is a DIY magnetic stirrer, as I read the greatest difficulty with making good home-made e-liquid is getting the ingredients really thoroughly mixed. There are lots of videos on Youtube; you get your paws on an old computer hard drive, take out the magnet, and glue it to the hub of a computer fan. Then mount the fan horizontally in a box or enclosure, so the magnet can rotate freely under something for a jar or beaker to sit on (under the lid of a cigar box, in one case on Youtube). Buy a "flea" (a plastic-coated metal pellet) off ebay (another fiver), place in beaker with ingredients to be mixed, and connect up to PC - should be able to browse ECF while it mixes! Really, it's just an excuse for me to buy an Erlenmeyer flask (yet another fiver); Walter White uses Erlenmeyers!

It's all a bit mad but not so crazy I think as smoking 25 a day for fifteen years!

That reminds me of my Dad ..he was always making things. He once made a paint can shaker using an old sewing machine motor etc!
Having had my first cigarette back in the mid sixties, and gradually progressed to smoking 35+ per day in the past two years, I'm trying very hard to find my way with the liquids. I do get some bad reactions: definitely PG, and I do know some certain flavours, and something else that I'm not too sure about yet. Could be down to variations in actual VG brands! ...I'll keep plodding on though!

In meantime, I've ordered a sampler pack from Smoke Rainbow of Virgin Vapors; they do e-juices made with organic flavourings (about 20 samples of 1ml each for about £20; just enough to find out if you like them).

I had a few of the little bottles direct from VV - their postage is pretty good, and there's a lot to choose from. I haven't got around to trying them all yet.

 

[Rab D]

I hadn't thought about a sweetener, I must admit; just aimed to keep it simple. I suppose the simplest thing would be plain VG and nicotine, but not sure that would be pleasant enough to vape for any length of time. I do wonder about some of the commercial e-liquids, when there are sites advertising various kinds of "flavour enhancers" for DIY; they may be OK to digest, but to inhale??

I've been lucky so far, in terms of reactions. About a week in, I had a brief asthma-like event; may have been an effect of not smoking, though. About a fortnight in, I felt itchy for spells at a time, but that passed. Otherwise, I'm OK for the moment. But I am now beginning to feel more the burn of the nicotine; I guess my throat is recovering from the effect of years of inhaling hot smoke.

 

[Pictor]

Perhaps the easiest way is to try it first.

I think there's a few sweeteners, but I see ethyl maltol mentioned in various places. It's mentioned in this recipe for a coffee type vanilla:
Nicotine Base Liquid 60mg
(50/50 PG/VG) 20 drops/ml 2 40 40
PG (Propylene Glycol)
20 drops/ml 0.3 6 6
VG (Vegetable Glycerine)
20 drops/ml 1.5 30 30
Coffee
(100/0 PG/VG) 20 drops/ml 0.5 10 10
French Vanilla
(100/0 PG/VG) 20 drops/ml 0.35 7 7
Dulce de Leche
(100/0 PG/VG) 20 drops/ml 0.25 5 5
Ethyl Maltol
(100/0 PG/VG) 20 drops/ml

I've not used it nor read there, but there's a DIY section on this forum DIY E-Liquid
No doubt someone there will know more about such things.

For someone who never had any allergies apart from a bit of pollen & dust irritation, it's been surprising to find myself up against various things that cause me problems. I'll keep plodding on though! 5 months today since I had a cigarette!

 

[Rab D]

Thanks for the info - gosh, the ambition of a three flavour combo and a sweetener. I tried two flavours (pistachio and custard - was aiming for Grizwald's Pistachio Cream) and got a concoction I wouldn't give to the cat, if I had a cat, which I don't, but if I did, s/he just had a lucky escape. Grizwald can rest easy.

Well done with the analogues! It's four weeks and three days since I had a stinky. And today for first time I built a coil, sub-ohmed, and chased a cloud! Alas, the last two weren't intended. I bought really fancy wire, thinking it was ordinary; made coil and put in Igo-w7 on my MVP; and tested a small sample of 30mg juice. Instead of the sedate 2-3 ohms I'm used to, I got less than one ohm and a vape cloud which had my eyes-a-poppin! Kind souls on the MVP thread helped explain my errors.

Indeed, a lightweight device which can be bought in any corner shop, placed in the mouth, then set alight, is sooooo much simpler....

 

[Pictor]

Beyond mixing two ready made liquids together and making up a bottle from some concentrate, I'm not sure I'd want to tinker around trying to make something from scratch. I tried making a lime ice cream and it was bitter and horrid! CV brought out the Posset lemon cream a week or so ago and I love it anyway so that'll do - if I want it to be like an ice cream, I'll add a drop of Koolada! !

Nice when you can see the weeks ticking by without a cigarette. As long as I can find enough to keep me happy without causing me breathing problems, then I'm fairly sure I'll stay off cigarettes. I smell better for a start!
I was in the supermarket a few weeks ago and standing next to me was a lady who had obviously just had a cigarette before coming into the store....I thought: 'gosh, did I smell that bad when I'd just had a cigarette?!' - unless she had a pocket full of half smoked cigarettes, it was pretty awful!

Good for you building coils! Something I don't want to get into.

Yes, cigarettes were so easy - stick on the order when doing the online shopping and that was that ...only interesting aspect may have been what colour disposable lighter to get!
Still, you could argue that e-cigs are much more fun to use!
Thinking about it, I don't have to use air freshener any more to mask the smell of smoke either! Apparently, there's a nice sweet smell coming out if this room each time someone passes!

 

[Hermit]

Couple of things I can think of. First, vanilla is known to be an irritant, so you might want to avoid it. A natural extract could even be worse in that respect, although it didn't bother me much - I tried this super-concentrated vanilla extract and got OK flavour but badly gunked up coils! A plus point would be that it's VG based, which brings me to my second point: almost all flavour concentrates are PG-based, as far as I know, so if you're really sensitive to PG then keeping the % of flavourings to a minimum would help. FlavourArt and Inawera are generally the most concentrated, out of the various flavour vendors - a lot of liquids I make with them have only 3 to 6% flavouring, no sweeteners or other additives, and taste great.

 

[Pictor]

Funnily enough, vanilla was the first thing that irritated my throat and caused problems. It was in the early days when using the pre-filled cartridges and I had to stop using the vanilla ones.
I've been careful ever since, and I got the TPA French Vanilla version that has the irritants removed (they have two). I'll try making some with the VG/nicotine base and see how it is!

 

[Rab D]

vanilla is known to be an irritant

Thanks, good to know; I'll be watchful and perhaps end up doing a lot of baking instead!