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First PG, now flavours.

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Hermit

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Thanks, good to know; I'll be watchful and perhaps end up doing a lot of baking instead!

The waiting how ever many weeks put me off making my own. That, and the hassle of trying to filter it really, really well!

People's reactions to it could be very different - in my case, it was just an extremely mild discomfort after a couple of hours vaping it. Not really a tightness or anything like that, more like, well, a very mild version of the discomfort I was getting from smoking, so... yeah. The main reason I didn't pursue it though is that I simply found better things to vape as I got into DIY (Banana Cookie, yum, made 200ml+ of that so far).
 

Pictor

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It started with a closing throat sensation and then made me short of breath.
Not sure if it's to do with the diacetyl issue or if it's something else that causes it, but the first liquid I tried with vanilla in it actually made my throat bleed!
When I saw that TPA made the effort and produced one totally free of those irritants, I got a bottle to see if I was OK with it. I'll get around to trying it soon.

For someone who never had any allergic reactions, it's been rather annoying, but I'm just being diligent and trying to eliminate anything that gives me a problem.

Thankfully, most people don't get any problem at all :)
 

Hermit

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A bleeding throat is pretty severe :( I don't know what early signs diacetyl might give - part of the problem with it seems to be that there weren't many obvious symptoms (or maybe that any symptoms went away when the workers went home at night, and were dismissed), until it was too late. But I'm pretty sure some of those popcorn plant workers reported shortness of breath. For me, vanilla caused a kind of scratchy throat, a tingle in my nose, and a little cough (perhaps just from the throat). Cinnamon can do roughly the same, apparently. I'm trying to avoid anything that might give me a problem later on, so in some ways I think it's good if my body warns me of them!
 

Pictor

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Yes, it was pretty severe! Only happened the once and I avoided most vanilla flavoured liquids after that. When I do try any bakery or custard type flavour, I'm very careful, and thankfully, there are some that I can use without problems.
The popcorn workers got an irreversible lung condition and it affected the respiratory system. I suppose any throat irritation could have been put down to the work environment but not necessarily ringing any alarm bells until some started to get ill.

I hadn't know that about cinnamon, and it explains yet another irritation problem I've encountered! Perhaps in their present state, some things just aren't meant to be inhaled, but of course until we try them, we don't know. I'm pretty sure all such ingredients will get filtered out in time.
Just seeing TPA produce some without any known irritants shows that the potential problems are being fixed! In the short time I've been using e-cigs and encountered the problems, I've seen more retailers and manufacturers make statements about whether such irritants are present or not.

It's like a lot of other things - some people can't be near cats, some people can't eat nuts ...it's all a case of finding out :) Worth the effort though!
 

Hermit

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Certainly is worth the effort! For what it's worth, I don't seem to get the same symptoms vaping any of the FlavourArt vanillas as I did with the extract, although I haven't used them much. There was a cinnamon danish juice I tried early on which was delicious, but really made my lungs feel congested and bad. I never worked out what which ingredient was the culprit, but it made me stay away from both cinnamon and bakery-type things. Custard is one that I hadn't tried before learning about diacetyl etc, so I was fine with just putting it on the blacklist of things not to vape, but then I found that FA make a custard without the baddies in it - I like it, but I assume it's not at all like the custard from other vendors (which have the evil diacetyl substitutes).

As long as there's something left after we've filled our blacklists, we'll be alright :D
 

Pictor

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Certainly is worth the effort!
As long as there's something left after we've filled our blacklists, we'll be alright :D
With some, once I know I get a problem, if it's not too bad, I will use a little for a short while now and then :)

There is one custard that definitely gives me a problem, and another that doesn't. Both slightly different, but both very nice.

With anything that does give me problems, I sometimes mix them in small ratios with some that don't.

No different to any other sensitivities I suppose. I'm happy to keep trying and working out which works best for me.
 

Codz

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I'm going to start asking vendors i buy from about diacetyl content too. I've never really had any noticeable problems with breathing, etc since starting vaping - perhaps a bit of congestion, but far ouweighed by the negatives i got from smoking. I had a constant cough and wheeze and often had colds, etc.

I have, over the last week or so noticed that i have had a lot of congestion though, and waking up really with a really dry mouth and feeling like my sinuses and throat are clogged with phlegm. It may be just a bit of a summer cold or something, but could be down to vaping certain flavours. Unless we ask we arent going to know whats in the eliquids we are buying and even then a vendor could just say no and we would have to take their word for it.
 

Pictor

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I did cough in the mornings when I smoked, and did get a fair bit of sinus congestion & pain.
Now I cough, but it's upper respiratory congestion based rather than a smokers 'lung cough'. The sinuses are much better, but I do get a bit of nasal and throat congestion with probably the VG.

When I read about the diacetyl etc., it did ring a few bells with me because early on, I found myself reacting badly to some brands of Custard & Vanilla. One seemed to literally shred my throat, and a few made my gums bleed, my throat swell or my breathing become difficult too.
Then, once I built up to getting problems with PG, the whole thing became even harder to define until I changed to all VG, then it was easy once more to recognise the flavours that caused me problems.
I also found myself getting breathing and throat problems with certain other flavours too: strawberry, blackberry & lime for instance. It was bad enough having to find my way around PG, but getting flavours that cause me problems too made it twice as hard. Never mind - almost 6 months so I've got his far. For someone who never had any allergies, it's been/is difficult at times.

I found the article on the TPA website about the subject very interesting and honest, plus I like that they took the time/effort to test their flavours and now give details about any such substances present in individual flavours. They also have some vanilla/cream/custard type flavourings that have been developed without them.

Now and then I do see vendors showing initiative and giving such information about their liquids now. Hopefully, this practice will become more commonplace once they realise that stating there is no Diacetyl used is not enough ...they need to understand that it's diacetyl, acetoin, & acetyl propionyl, and perhaps read something like the TPA article: Perfumer's Apprentice

To me, the fact that it's known for these substances to have the potential to cause lung problems means extreme caution needs to be exercised when manufacturing/using such things for vaping liquids. After all, it takes the inhalation issue a step further in that it's heated and taken directly into the body rather than being an airborne particulate.

No good it being assumed that it'll be OK and then finding it isn't years down the line. If it's suspect, replace it with something more benign.
Now that we're using more sophisticated equipment, with more powerful batteries, these issues may need even more attention to detail, and I suspect that in the case of the major flavourings manufacturers, the issue is being investigated and dealt with accordingly. At such a relatively early stage in the vaping practice, I'm sure there's much to be learned, tweaked and developed for the better good, and the better diligence applied to these issues, the less validity can be given to the naysayers and negative reports ...hopefully!.

Buying from UK suppliers that we can easily ask for such details is one step we can take right away.
 

Pictor

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Actually no - I'd never even heard of diacetyl!
Wasn't perhaps clear in my last reply, sorry ...I meant all the undesirable ingredients/additives in cigarettes. :)
Hearing there's diacetyl in them too doesn't surprise me in the least.

Nothing is going to be guaranteed 100% safe for all people ...but it would be nice if, once identified as a potential hazard for vaping, such things could be properly tested and evaluated.

I know for a fact that a few custard/vanilla ones gave me very definite and unpleasant problems in the early days, while some others barely trouble me. Same goes for a few fruit flavours & a lot of cinnamon too. They're obviously not all made the same.

If some flavourings are considered potentially troublesome, or perhaps unsafe with long term use, they should be labelled clearly as such.
Better still, if substitutes can be found that don't compromise flavours too badly, then they should be offered as an alternative ..again clearly labelled or described as to what they are and why.
 

Codz

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My congestion seems to be getting better now, and im still vaping the same liquids so must have been just a bug or something. Saying that, i am still going to check these out. If we get info from various vendors we could post it here or maybe request a sticky for it?

I was looking at some info from a couple of the vendors that are registered with zamplebox and they had statements about how they do not use diacetyl so its good to see that it is being recognised as an issue.
 

Pictor

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My congestion seems to be getting better now, and im still vaping the same liquids so must have been just a bug or something. Saying that, i am still going to check these out. If we get info from various vendors we could post it here or maybe request a sticky for it?

I was looking at some info from a couple of the vendors that are registered with zamplebox and they had statements about how they do not use diacetyl so its good to see that it is being recognised as an issue.

Glad your congestion is clearing. Perhaps a seasonal thing?

Yes, it would be nice to be able to see at a glance which do contain these substances and which do not - then people can make an informed choice to suit their personal needs/requirements.

For many though, it'll go further than just diacetyl. There are some flavour vendors who do/will openly state that certain of their bakery/vanilla/custard liquids couldn't be made properly without diacetyl, acetoin, & acetyl propionyl, and as such it is up to the purchaser to make that choice.

For myself, I judge them by the affect they have on me. Sometimes it is hard now because I also get problems with PG, and I need to either use those sparingly or not at all.
I definitely get problems with some Vanillas/custards, strawberry, lime, Blackberry and cinnamon. There may be more.
 

Racehorse

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I was looking at some info from a couple of the vendors that are registered with zamplebox and they had statements about how they do not use diacetyl

The liquids testing positive for DA and AP also had those statements.

I bleieve this is why the researchers said that the only way to know was by testing the eliquid.

Did your vendor(s) provide a test result?

That they do not "use" diacetyls is often meant to mean that they don't add any during the mixing process. That doesn't mean that the flavorings used do not already contain it. Many vendors have not sought the proper information from their flavoring manufacturers, etc.

Just want consumers to be very clear on this, i.e. If you don't care, that's fine, too. ;) I'm just posting this to those for whom it is an issue......if you are paying for something you have a right to know.
 

Codz

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The liquids testing positive for DA and AP also had those statements.

I bleieve this is why the researchers said that the only way to know was by testing the eliquid.

Did your vendor(s) provide a test result?

That they do not "use" diacetyls is often meant to mean that they don't add any during the mixing process. That doesn't mean that the flavorings used do not already contain it. Many vendors have not sought the proper information from their flavoring manufacturers, etc.

Just want consumers to be very clear on this, i.e. If you don't care, that's fine, too. ;) I'm just posting this to those for whom it is an issue......if you are paying for something you have a right to know.

That i know of there was no reference to any test results, although admittedly I was not searching for them. As i said, even when a vendor insists they dont they are reliant on the companies who supply their ingredients not using certain chemicals and being honest about what they do use.

I know very little about how liquids are made other than that there are flavourings, VG/PG and nicotine base. From my limited knowledge that's 3 suppliers and they may use many more - I dont think all vendors will check/care, and of those that do there is bound to be a percentage that are either given false information or have been told they do contain DA for example, but dont broadcast this info and may say no if asked.

Here in the UK a year or two ago there was a big investigation into a lot of meat products (burgers i think) being sold at major supermarkets here because it was found that loads of them were made using horse meat (i know its acceptable in some countries, but not here, especially when the products were labelled as beefburgers). I guess there are 2 ways of looking at it - if you are really concerned then ask the vendor in-depth and ask for test results, and only buy from those that you are totally satisfied with or just forget about it unless you start feeling off, particularly after vaping a new juice.

I'm totally against the regulations that are being suggested by various goverment bodies at the moment, but i do acknowledge there needs to be some as far as liquids are concerned - regulations that arent so expensive all but pharma & tobacco companies cant afford to meet them.
 

Rab D

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I do seem to be gradually sifting through various brands and flavours and getting a fair number that I can use. Been tough at times though!
The vanilla pods steeping sounds interesting! did you just put all of those whole pods into a 100ml? bottle VG ? Let us know how it turns out!

Not sure I want to go further than mixing some concentrates with some ready made VG nicotine base, but I'll check out those links you gave! Thank you :)

I decanted the VG from steeped vanilla pod last night and mixed with some nicotine. Tried a vape today - was actually quite pleasant! Different from the rather sweet vanilla flavourings I've had before, and not like ice cream either, it's hard to describe. I didn't filter it on this occasion - saw a few seeds go in the mix (they're tiny), but reckon the cotton wicking will get them. Will report further when I've had an evening's vape with it, see if there are any immediate side effects. Phenomenal clouds though, 90% VG!
 

Pictor

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I decanted the VG from steeped vanilla pod last night and mixed with some nicotine. Tried a vape today - was actually quite pleasant! Different from the rather sweet vanilla flavourings I've had before, and not like ice cream either, it's hard to describe. I didn't filter it on this occasion - saw a few seeds go in the mix (they're tiny), but reckon the cotton wicking will get them. Will report further when I've had an evening's vape with it, see if there are any immediate side effects. Phenomenal clouds though, 90% VG!

Sounds to have been a fairly good result! TPA do produce some flavourings with no undesirable additives, so you perhaps could improve on it with a few drops of one of those if you wanted to. :)
 

Dan Bean

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I second the vanilla pod infusion technique though I usually heat VG/PG first to make it runnier. Using ingredients like this means you can be sure of what goes into your mix. I would also recommend cocoa infusions which can be made easily using pure cocoa powder, or if you don't like messy filtering, crushed cocoa beans is another way to get rich natural flavours, as is fresh mint leaves. I've tried this with both PG and VG though VG requires more heating prior to infusion as it's thicker.
 

Rab D

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I second the vanilla pod infusion technique though I usually heat VG/PG first to make it runnier. Using ingredients like this means you can be sure of what goes into your mix. I would also recommend cocoa infusions which can be made easily using pure cocoa powder, or if you don't like messy filtering, crushed cocoa beans is another way to get rich natural flavours, as is fresh mint leaves. I've tried this with both PG and VG though VG requires more heating prior to infusion as it's thicker.

Hmm, cocoa beans and mint, sounds good!

I agree VG needs some heat to work with; my experiment involved only about 15ml, so I just sat the bottle on top of my plastic kettle, which had boiled a while earlier, and there was enough heat in it to make the VG workable after a quarter hour.

Vaped about 1.5ml last night. Fine, but one odd effect - made the bought juices which I tried afterwards taste funny, Must have affected my taste buds in some way.
 
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