First Successful Genny Build, Sort Of. A Couple Questions

[Glenn_K]

Greetings; After a few mis-tries, I finally completed a usable build on my Siam Cobra. I got this rba a week ago, and it came with a build already done, courtesy of the seller. So I already know how good this rba can be, and that's the result I was aiming for.

Before I try a new build, which I hope will be better, I've got a couple questions.

First of all, is there any way to know for sure whether a wick is properly oxidized? For my first couple wicks (used in totally unsuccessful builds), I used a lighter, and I think the problems I ran into later might have been related to this, at least in part. For this latest build, I used the flame from a gas stove, but i'm still not 100% sure that I got it right.

What causes a hot leg at the base of the coil? Does it happen because the Kanthol is too loose between the ground screw and the wick?

Finally, I know that the coil resistance can change while the loops are being adjusted, but I saw a drop of .4 oHms just from raising the voltage. Does a jump of this size indicate a serious problem with the setup, e.g. a problem that can't really be fixed just by adjusting the coil loops?

-- Glenn

 

[Glenn_K]

I tried another build, which was better still, but i'm still stumped on a couple things.

- When I first apply voltage after finishing the wrap (3V with a regulated mod), I get a fairly drastic resistance drop, .3 or .4 oHms, is this normal?

- the vape is only good up to about 4 volts. Anything higher, and I get a dry, burning taste. What could cause this?

-- Glenn

 

[WattWick]

It may be that your wick is not up to the higher rate of vaporization. It may also be that when you increase the voltage, the current can easier jump to the wick. That may explain your resistance drop when you increase the voltage. I would try to do the jiggery pokery at higher voltages to build up a layer of oxide that can keep up with those... well... higher voltages.

Not sure about the hot leg on the bottom. Maybe the bottom wrap is too tight? And/or you have a hotspot just about where it meets the wick.

What wire gauge are you using, by the way?

Hopefully this will bump your post up so that cleverer folks than me can chime in. I'm not used to using regulated mods and the wire gauges best suited for those, which I assume is 30/32 awg. Which would be thinner wire than I use (28awg). I find that thicker wire makes it easier. Thicker wire on a regulated mod would call for a few more wraps tho... which wouldn't really make it any easier anyway.

 

[Glenn_K]

I should have said, i'm using 32 gauge, doing 4 wraps (seen from the front of the coil), the way it's shown is a number of Genny demo videos. The initial resistance was 1.5 oHms, but it dropped off to 1.1 as soon as I applied voltage.

It my latest build, the bottom leg was tighter, and the bottom hotleg was no longer there. Still seeing really weird hotlegs at the top --
one time the Kanthol broke apart just where it meets the positive post, like it melted apart. This can't be good!

I know i'm going to have to keep trying different things until I get it right, and any advice to get me there a little quicker would be greatly appreciated. Because my Genny came with a decent build, I know how good it can be, and i'm definitely going to keep at it.

Thanks for the reply, btw.

-- Glenn

It may be that your wick is not up to the higher rate of vaporization. It may also be that when you increase the voltage, the current can easier jump to the wick. That may explain your resistance drop when you increase the voltage. I would try to do the jiggery pokery at higher voltages to build up a layer of oxide that can keep up with those... well... higher voltages.

Not sure about the hot leg on the bottom. Maybe the bottom wrap is too tight? And/or you have a hotspot just about where it meets the wick.

What wire gauge are you using, by the way?

Hopefully this will bump your post up so that cleverer folks than me can chime in. I'm not used to using regulated mods and the wire gauges best suited for those, which I assume is 30/32 awg. Which would be thinner wire than I use (28awg). I find that thicker wire makes it easier. Thicker wire on a regulated mod would call for a few more wraps tho... which wouldn't really make it any easier anyway.

 

[CloudZ]

Post a picture. Your wick may be too small and you are probably shorting through it (but these two points are not related to each other, just to clarify).

 

[Glenn_K]

Post a picture. Your wick may be too small and you are probably shorting through it (but these two points are not related to each other, just to clarify).

Thanks for the reply, CloudZ. I tried RipTrippers pulse method for working out coil shorts, and it really seemed to work (Genesis Atomizer Hot Spot Fix When Using A VV/VW Device - YouTube), but when I added e-liquid, I got the same problem as before, the vape turns harsh and dry once I get up to about 4 volts. Under 4 volts and it's fine. I've added a picture below.

Does this sound like an issue with mesh wick?

BTW I can see in the picture that the bottom most coil isn't glowing properly, but it was ok at first, before I added e-liquid. Can a single dull coil explain the dry, harsh vape taste?

-- glenn

 

[CloudZ]

The lowest coil may be too tight, so you could try reducing its tension a little.

I have to deal with the issue you describe pretty often, when the coil looks like it is glowing just fine then I add juice and it doesn't vape well at all. There is a good chance that a short is forming once the wick is wetted, I don't know why this happens but it happens to me all the time. This is one of the main reasons I switched to ekowool sleeved SS cable. One way you can try to fix it is to just drip 1 or 2 drops on the wick after it "looks good", fire it until it glows again and fix the new short(s). Repeat until it glows evenly after vaporizing off the small amount of juice. I've found this isn't exactly foolproof and that the problem can come back after a little while (but hopefully it doesn't).

The one time I actually got a really good experience off a mesh wick, the "new shorts" never appeared because the coil was tensioned perfectly right away. So I guess the only foolproof method is to wrap the coil perfect on the first try so it barely needs any adjustment. It beats me on how to achieve this consistently, and once again this is why I still prefer an ekowool sleeve. As far as I can tell, the coil needs to be as loose as possible while still touching the wick everywhere.

 

[badexec]

I too prefer the Ekowool sleeve. Much better for preventing those shorts with the mesh. The Kraken / Genesis build video on Vaper Venue shows a good tutorial of how to oxidize that mesh, they really cook it under a torch. I don't think your stove or lighter gives off enough heat to really oxidize it well.

 

[CloudZ]

I too prefer the Ekowool sleeve. Much better for preventing those shorts with the mesh. The Kraken / Genesis build video on Vaper Venue shows a good tutorial of how to oxidize that mesh, they really cook it under a torch. I don't think your stove or lighter gives off enough heat to really oxidize it well.

Ekowool totally eliminates the shorts. I'd say it mutes the flavor a little compared to straight mesh, so its really a trade off between difficulty and performance. Case in point, my recent PERFECT mesh build was simply blowing me away with how well it was working until I took it apart for cleaning and re-wrapped on the same wick. Short city after that, so back to the eko for a while.

A butane mini torch works well, is pretty cheap (< $30), and can be found at most stores that sell tools. I use mine all the time for annealing wire, oxidizing mesh, and torching ekowool/silica.

 

[Glenn_K]

Ya, a butane torch is on my shopping list, should have one soon. Right now, to use a gas stove, I have to run over to the neighbour's (mine is electric).

Going to try the drill bit method, and then go visit a vape shop where one of the support guys has promised to give me a hand. Sooner or later, i'm going to get this! Thanks for all the tips, they've been helpful.

-- Glenn

Ekowool totally eliminates the shorts. I'd say it mutes the flavor a little compared to straight mesh, so its really a trade off between difficulty and performance. Case in point, my recent PERFECT mesh build was simply blowing me away with how well it was working until I took it apart for cleaning and re-wrapped on the same wick. Short city after that, so back to the eko for a while.

A butane mini torch works well, is pretty cheap (< $30), and can be found at most stores that sell tools. I use mine all the time for annealing wire, oxidizing mesh, and torching ekowool/silica.

 

[Jazzi Mike]

I always used a lighter to oxidize mesh. Then I would put a few drops of e juice on mine and burn it off. You want each wrap to be at the same tension. If the coils are not glowing evenly, do not put juice in. Also, when you fire the mod, the coils should start glowing in the middle and then move to the outer wraps.

Mesh is a total B----. After wrapping the coils themselves, you just have to mess with moving wraps and getting it just right to have a properly working setup.

 

[WattWick]

I always used a lighter to oxidize mesh. Then I would put a few drops of e juice on mine and burn it off. You want each wrap to be at the same tension. If the coils are not glowing evenly, do not put juice in. Also, when you fire the mod, the coils should start glowing in the middle and then move to the outer wraps.

Mesh is a total B----. After wrapping the coils themselves, you just have to mess with moving wraps and getting it just right to have a properly working setup.

Not disagreeing, just trying to elaborate a little. I think part of the trick is to get the wire tension and coil spacing right when wrapping it. Also trying to keep the wraps as "flat" as possible. If the wire is coiled at a steep incline, and you have to move them around a lot, you are affecting tension in a negative way. Not the best explanation, but I hope that made sort of sense. (More aimed at Glenn than lecturing Mike )

I just give my wicks a quick juice burn. That is, soak in juice and set on fire. Not while in the atty, mind you. Some people don't do this at all. Either way should work. I do recommend the juice burn until you get the hang of pulsing, tho. Makes it just a little bit easier. I mainly do it to clean the wick, but it also helps build up an initial layer of oxide.

Glenn; any closer to success? Not quite sure what to say to make it work for you. I can help with some comfort by saying it's mostly about trial and error, tho. Quite a bit of error for me personally. Once you got it, you got it.

 

[CloudZ]

Several points in this thread are hinting at why mesh wicks can puzzling for a lot of vapers. Are they the best wicks for gennies? Yes, I agree with that. When you get one performing well, it is right up there with the best RDA builds. It is definitely something to strive for. But the problem is that there is no way to tell someone exactly HOW to get one working perfect. Everyone has their own procedure, tips, tricks, etc... none of them wrong or necessarily right either... and some people just "get it" right away for some reason. I had nothing but frustration with mesh until I finally realized that I needed to take the damn center post out of my RSST while wrapping the wire on a fresh, lightly oxidized, totally solid 500 mesh wick. The results were like magic and I will definitely try to duplicate it in the future. What did I really do different that time? I don't really know for sure, but I am guessing that I got the tension and contact perfect so very little adjustment was needed. After cleaning I re-wrapped on the same wick and I know the tension wasn't perfect because the wick was all dented up, and the results were terrible. Next time I get one working perfect again, I am not disassembling it until it dies. Hopefully rinsing out the tank through the fill hole will be sufficient if I need to change flavors. Once my ekowool is gone (since I haven't found any other good use for it... cotton all the way), I'm buying a big ol' sheet of 500 mesh for the RSST.

 

[Glenn_K]

I'm still not at the 'a ha' moment of tension and contact, but getting closer. My latest build -- with a coil wrapped much more loosely than what I had been doing -- lit up without the resistance drop i'd been plagued by. At a vape shop, a really helpful guy helped me get all the shorts out, and the coil was glowing like a champ up to 6 volts on a regulated mod.

I babied the rig home, but I still wound up w/ shorts when I got here (I think this time the coil is a little too loose). Vaping decent clouds at 4 volts right now. Not the same awesome taste I experienced from the Cobra seller's build, but I think i'm on the right track. It's really helpful to know how good gennies can be before learning to do builds, because then you know what to aim for.

BTW the vape shop guy showed me his build on a Kraken; cotton that plugs the wick hole but doesn't go down into the tank. He calls this an 'auto dripper,' and saturates the cotton by tipping back the mod. I really liked the result, and plan to try this.

-- Glenn

Several points in this thread are hinting at why mesh wicks can puzzling for a lot of vapers. Are they the best wicks for gennies? Yes, I agree with that. When you get one performing well, it is right up there with the best RDA builds. It is definitely something to strive for. But the problem is that there is no way to tell someone exactly HOW to get one working perfect. Everyone has their own procedure, tips, tricks, etc... none of them wrong or necessarily right either... and some people just "get it" right away for some reason. I had nothing but frustration with mesh until I finally realized that I needed to take the damn center post out of my RSST while wrapping the wire on a fresh, lightly oxidized, totally solid 500 mesh wick. The results were like magic and I will definitely try to duplicate it in the future. What did I really do different that time? I don't really know for sure, but I am guessing that I got the tension and contact perfect so very little adjustment was needed. After cleaning I re-wrapped on the same wick and I know the tension wasn't perfect because the wick was all dented up, and the results were terrible. Next time I get one working perfect again, I am not disassembling it until it dies. Hopefully rinsing out the tank through the fill hole will be sufficient if I need to change flavors. Once my ekowool is gone (since I haven't found any other good use for it... cotton all the way), I'm buying a big ol' sheet of 500 mesh for the RSST.

 

[TrentTC]

Hot legs are almost always a tension problem. Keep your bottom leg as flat to the deck as possible. I always wrap my top leg around the post in the opposite direction of my coil wraps. If you wrap the coil clockwise go counter clockwise around the center post. If the bottom leg still gives me problems I'll put a kink in it sometimes and this usually resolves any issue with it glowing. A rapid drop in ohms is most likely due to a short to the wick. Pulse fire the coils and prod them gently. This should build up some oxidation and get rid of these small shorts.

 

[adamfoul]

I'm far from an expert on this, I spent weeks on end going through bits of mesh and wire, and failing to get my genny set up right.

I gave up after a while and got into dripping, making both "normal" and micro coils wrapped on various different size drill bits, using 28g kanthal.
Last week I decided to give my genny a go again, and it seems I've got it! Every now and then I have to pop the cap off to sort a hotspot, but it vapes well 90% of the time! and now I can taste a hotspot coming way before that killer metallic drag.

But, back to my point, I think it was the 28g that moved me so much closer to success. Obviously the time spent wrapping coils for my RDA helped, but I got got the 28 at the same times as I started dripping, and it just seems easier to wrap with heavier wire.

As others have said, the hot legs are usually a tension issue. I've never had problems with the bottom leg, for me it's always the top one, I just lean the wick closer to the positive post if this happens, and I've read putting a small kink in the bottom leg can help get rid of that.
And for oxidising, my last build was completely unoxidised, but I have struggled with unoxidised wicks, but it's possible to do, so I doubt that's your problem.

I'd try with some 28g, and use the drill bit method (while your still new to it, I'd carry on oxidizsing though). Remember to torch your kanthal too, takes some of the springiness out, and try the above tips for getting rid of hot legs.
If your still struggling (which I was, for so long, if you have a dripper, practice making coils on that, if not, try setting up your genny in "auto drip mode", there are videos out there, (sorry I can't find a link, bloody ipad).
Once you know you can knock out a perfect coil everytime, you should have the experience to get your genny firing, or at least a better idea of what the problem is.


[EDIT]- I missed a few posts and did a bit of repeating here. . . Ah well, all goes to building my post count.

 

[Glenn_K]

Sounds good, adamfoul, thanks for the post.

I've been thinking of trying 28 gauge, how many wraps and how many oHms did you end up with?

-- Glenn

I'm far from an expert on this, I spent weeks on end going through bits of mesh and wire, and failing to get my genny set up right.

I gave up after a while and got into dripping, making both "normal" and micro coils wrapped on various different size drill bits, using 28g kanthal.
Last week I decided to give my genny a go again, and it seems I've got it! Every now and then I have to pop the cap off to sort a hotspot, but it vapes well 90% of the time! and now I can taste a hotspot coming way before that killer metallic drag.

But, back to my point, I think it was the 28g that moved me so much closer to success. Obviously the time spent wrapping coils for my RDA helped, but I got got the 28 at the same times as I started dripping, and it just seems easier to wrap with heavier wire.
......

 

[Sturgis]

I'm probably the least experienced person on this thread so take this for what it's worth. A couple months ago I picked up a Zen atty pro. It came with a wrapped ceramic wick. Although you couldn't tell, the wick was broken right at the hole. I sucked on that damn thing for a week trying to get it to work, lol. I finally rebuilt using SS wick. It was usually a crapshoot whether I was going to get vapor or burnt smoke. Just this morning I built it with a 1.7 ohm coil and cotton. I ran a small amount of cotton around the deck to grab loose juice. And dropped the cotton into the hole about 3/8 inch. The result is astonishing! This thing easily rivals any of my drippers. And so far, no dry hits.

Bob

 

[adamfoul]

Sounds good, adamfoul, thanks for the post.

I've been thinking of trying 28 gauge, how many wraps and how many oHms did you end up with?

-- Glenn

I usually get 6 wraps, "micro" style, measures out to about 1.4ish.
I think the inner diameter of that is 2.5mm, not 100% though, I just found a nail that fit snugly in the wick hole (aga t2) and wrap around that.

 

[Tbev]

Dude! Throw that mesh in the trash and roll a cotton wick, insert into coil, vape. No hot legs, no bs.

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