Forum for Mech mods
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The very first use of the term Advanced Personal Vaporizer, as far as I am aware, was by Zen to describe his mechmods or 'hybrids'.
We use the term to describe any battery holder that can accept generic rechargeables, or that has some feature not available in the basic cigalike mini ecig. In order to fully understand this it needs some appreciation of the history.
When we just had minis, anything else was called a mod because at first the only way you could get one was by modding a flashlight or similar (bits of copper pipe or whatever). At that time, and now, something a lot better than a mini deserved the name APV because unless you were around at that time, you have no idea how useless the gear was. We spent around the first three years of vaping trying to work out how to get a better wad of batting into a cartridge - this was before cartos, and you have no idea how utterly useless carts are compared to modern stuff.
It doesn't make any sense to refer to something like a DNA20 VW device that retails at $300 as a 'mod' if you knew how that word was used for hacksawed-up chunks of copper pipe with endcaps and a spring you had to press down with your mouth. Yes, that truly *was* a mod. Your modern VV/VW device is not a 'mod'. Neither is a beautifully-crafted SS device with a neodymium magnet actuator and a battery that vapes all day using an RTA and that costs hundreds of bucks. I do apologise for this, but you need to have seen what we had for mods and then you would see why APV is right on. We are currently on 5th-generation devices, and even the top mechmods have stuff in them / on them that could never have been envisaged in the days of the mods.
There are many people around that use and love the word mod because they grew up with it, just like there are people who know what cart springs are and how cars used to have them. Times change
Mind you there are times when it is a useful and accurate term: there is nothing wrong with mechmod, boxmod or tubemod because they are specific terms, there is nothing better to replace them with, and people know what each means.
We use the term to describe any battery holder that can accept generic rechargeables, or that has some feature not available in the basic cigalike mini ecig. In order to fully understand this it needs some appreciation of the history.
When we just had minis, anything else was called a mod because at first the only way you could get one was by modding a flashlight or similar (bits of copper pipe or whatever). At that time, and now, something a lot better than a mini deserved the name APV because unless you were around at that time, you have no idea how useless the gear was. We spent around the first three years of vaping trying to work out how to get a better wad of batting into a cartridge - this was before cartos, and you have no idea how utterly useless carts are compared to modern stuff.
It doesn't make any sense to refer to something like a DNA20 VW device that retails at $300 as a 'mod' if you knew how that word was used for hacksawed-up chunks of copper pipe with endcaps and a spring you had to press down with your mouth. Yes, that truly *was* a mod. Your modern VV/VW device is not a 'mod'. Neither is a beautifully-crafted SS device with a neodymium magnet actuator and a battery that vapes all day using an RTA and that costs hundreds of bucks. I do apologise for this, but you need to have seen what we had for mods and then you would see why APV is right on. We are currently on 5th-generation devices, and even the top mechmods have stuff in them / on them that could never have been envisaged in the days of the mods.
There are many people around that use and love the word mod because they grew up with it, just like there are people who know what cart springs are and how cars used to have them. Times change
Mind you there are times when it is a useful and accurate term: there is nothing wrong with mechmod, boxmod or tubemod because they are specific terms, there is nothing better to replace them with, and people know what each means.
The very first use of the term Advanced Personal Vaporizer, as far as I am aware, was by Zen to describe his mechmods or 'hybrids'.
We use the term to describe any battery holder that can accept generic rechargeables, or that has some feature not available in the basic cigalike mini ecig. In order to fully understand this it needs some appreciation of the history.
When we just had minis, anything else was called a mod because at first the only way you could get one was by modding a flashlight or similar (bits of copper pipe or whatever). At that time, and now, something a lot better than a mini deserved the name APV because unless you were around at that time, you have no idea how useless the gear was. We spent around the first three years of vaping trying to work out how to get a better wad of batting into a cartridge - this was before cartos, and you have no idea how utterly useless carts are compared to modern stuff.
It doesn't make any sense to refer to something like a DNA20 VW device that retails at $300 as a 'mod' if you knew how that word was used for hacksawed-up chunks of copper pipe with endcaps and a spring you had to press down with your mouth. Yes, that truly *was* a mod. Your modern VV/VW device is not a 'mod'. Neither is a beautifully-crafted SS device with a neodymium magnet actuator and a battery that vapes all day using an RTA and that costs hundreds of bucks. I do apologise for this, but you need to have seen what we had for mods and then you would see why APV is right on. We are currently on 5th-generation devices, and even the top mechmods have stuff in them / on them that could never have been envisaged in the days of the mods.
There are many people around that use and love the word mod because they grew up with it, just like there are people who know what cart springs are and how cars used to have them. Times change
Mind you there are times when it is a useful and accurate term: there is nothing wrong with mechmod, boxmod or tubemod because they are specific terms, there is nothing better to replace them with, and people know what each means.
The concern I have is:
Do we want new members who are trying to quit smoking to get the impression that they should get a MECH (and sub ohm too).
Mainly, I don't like the idea that the New Members forum is a place to discuss complicated stuff, as it seems to be now. I don't think the names used has much effect on that.
If you asked me this question: "Is it better for a beginner to buy a VW electronic device or a mechmod with a clearo?" then I would have no hesitation at all in saying "Get a mechmod" - every time. There is no doubt in my mind about that: a simple 3.7 volt device is the way to go because that worked out just fine for us back in the day when that's all we had. It was a good way to learn how the heads and the liquid affect the vape, and how to take care of batteries, all in a situation where there is nothing else to complicate the issue.
Mechmods are the simplest introduction to uprated vaping and always have been: just a big batt for better performance.
It's when RBAs and especially sub-ohm is brought in that I reject the idea this is for beginners - I'd like to ban that from NM. It's got nothing to do with mechmods themselves. A mechmod with a clearo or a carto or a carto tank gives you an all-day vaping setup that anyone will find useful, including beginners. One of my rigs is a mechmod with an LR dripper atty: the simplest possible setup and it suits me just fine after nearly 5 years vaping. You get 4 volt vaping with no fuss no muss, and if the head and liquid are just right for that, for you, then there is no better solution.
We need to separate mechmods, and RBAs / sub-ohm. They are not the same thing. Thousands of people used a Screwdriver for years before RBAs came along.
If you asked me this question: "Is it better for a beginner to buy a VW electronic device or a mechmod with a clearo?" then I would have no hesitation at all in saying "Get a mechmod" - every time. There is no doubt in my mind about that: a simple 3.7 volt device is the way to go because that worked out just fine for us back in the day when that's all we had. It was a good way to learn how the heads and the liquid affect the vape, and how to take care of batteries, all in a situation where there is nothing else to complicate the issue.
Mechmods are the simplest introduction to uprated vaping and always have been: just a big batt for better performance.
It's when RBAs and especially sub-ohm is brought in that I reject the idea this is for beginners - I'd like to ban that from NM. It's got nothing to do with mechmods themselves. A mechmod with a clearo or a carto or a carto tank gives you an all-day vaping setup that anyone will find useful, including beginners. One of my rigs is a mechmod with an LR dripper atty: the simplest possible setup and it suits me just fine after nearly 5 years vaping. You get 4 volt vaping with no fuss no muss, and if the head and liquid are just right for that, for you, then there is no better solution.
We need to separate mechmods, and RBAs / sub-ohm. They are not the same thing. Thousands of people used a Screwdriver for years before RBAs came along.
Oh.
I'm a bit surprised; for safety reasons, I wouldn't generally recommend a mech mod and lithium batteries for the average new vaper / former smoker.
It's probably a good way to learn how the things work and how to take care of batteries, but then again, how many want to learn how things work.
Getting back to the OP, how does a *simple* device end up being *advanced* ?
But egos also have lithium batteries, and I'll make a wild guess that those batteries are far inferior in quality to what people are routinely told to use with their mech mods. Ditto for chargers: I used to charge my ancient egos on ancient chargers all the time. Now I look back on my past behavior and shudder.
ARE mech mods more dangerous than egos IF the person is using good batteries, a good charger, good coils, and not going subohm? I always wondered about that.
As far as I know, all ecigs of any kind use lithium cells. There is one exception I know of, the Puck DIY mod, which uses AA cells.
In terms of battery safety, Li-FePO4 cells are the safest of all lithium cells as they are the most stable and least likely to experience thermal runaway, failure with outgas, failure with flame, or explosion. In fact I don't know of any incident ever that could be reliably attributed to one of these cells. However, at one time they were the most commonly counterfeited of all lithium rechargeables (especially the Tenergy brand). If an incident was reported it would be necessary to first establish the cell/s concerned were not counterfeit.
The next safest are Li-Mn cells as used for example in the vast majority of APVs of all kinds, often in the form of an AW 18650. There are no reports of explosive failure of these cells, no reports of failure with violent outgas, and very few reports of failure with flame. Because these cells are so stable, it is necessary to question whether or not the cells that failed were in fact counterfeit.
Also there are hybrid cells, but we don't have much data on them (not enough history).
Next in the battery safety order come protected Li-ion cells. These are regular Li-ion cells (specifically, a lithium cobalt dioxide cell) with a controller circuit board in the form of a disc tacked onto the negative pole. They used to be used in basic APVs but they are not the best choice now. They have a limited current delivery (low amps) because you can't put much through the tiny microelectronics the controller board is made with. Anything more than about 2 amps is going to cook those little boards. This means they are a very bad choice for modern VV or VW APVs (and may not even work). In terms of failures, the control circuit can fail, leaving a dead package but with a battery that is otherwise fine. If the controller failed to a straight-through mode then the cell would act as an unprotected Li-ion cell.
Next comes the same arrangement but with the controller board separately located inside the ecig. All production ecigs of the mini and mid-size formats use this arrangement (all 510, KR8, eGo types, etc.). These are therefore an unprotected Li-ion cell with an associated controller circuit board.
The mid-size (eGo type) in this form has the highest failure rate of all ecig batteries. There are many incidents of batteries catching fire while on charge. In theory these are the most 'dangerous' although the risk is from house fires as against personal injury. No one has explained why the failure rate is more pronounced than other formats, but it could be because the chargers are very low quality, or maybe people are connecting a 510 connector charger to an eGo that requires a mini USB charge connection.
The most dangerous set-up of all (and the only one which is actually dangerous in terms of personal injury) is stacking (placing in series) two unprotected Li-ion cells. We know of around 15 incidents where these have exploded or gone into a rocket-mode fail (violent outgas with flames and sufficient gas pressure to launch the device around a room, causing multiple fires). Eight of these incidents were reported on ECF and some were well-documented. Two resulted in severe personal injury to the face, mouth and throat. These violent failures often involved two RCR123a cells or similar (unprotected Li-ion cells of about 16340 size).
Li-Po or Li-poly cells have a question mark over them. These cells are used in APVs with an integral battery pack. Li-Poly cells are known to be the most sensitive of all to impact damage, and it has been demonstrated that some types can catch fire after being dropped hard (see fire videos on the Battery page in the Library). There are no reported ecig incidents with them so far.
So in terms of absolute safety, the best bet is a mini ecig because there are no reports of one failing. In terms of a usable vaping device, the safest is an electronic APV with a removable Li-Mn cell. Next comes a mechanical or basic electrical APV with a single Li-Mn cell. Down the scale a way comes an eGo clone with a no-name charger. Last comes a two-cell non-electronic APV with two unprotected Li-ion cells - and it is to be hoped that no one is crazy enough to either make or use such a thing today. They are literally capable of blowing your face off.
All ecigs use lithium cells, and the safest practical solution (i.e. not including a mini) is any APV using a Li-Mn cell (often called an IMR cell).
Next issue: how does a simple device end up being called advanced? Hmm - put a Zen hybrid next to an old mini like an M401, then try the vape from both. The APV is considerably more advanced by any practical measure you wish to apply. The basic technology might not be, but for once we aren't being confused by the widgets and are basing our value on the end result. If a person had started vaping in the days of the mini cart models or the leaky penstyles, they would know just how advanced today's stuff is - even if the built-in tech may not be. It's the design, the materials, the batteries, the size, the battery life, the durability, the longevity, the vape - and most importantly the result.
In terms of battery safety, Li-FePO4 cells are the safest of all lithium cells as they are the most stable and least likely to experience thermal runaway, failure with outgas, failure with flame, or explosion. In fact I don't know of any incident ever that could be reliably attributed to one of these cells. However, at one time they were the most commonly counterfeited of all lithium rechargeables (especially the Tenergy brand). If an incident was reported it would be necessary to first establish the cell/s concerned were not counterfeit.
The next safest are Li-Mn cells as used for example in the vast majority of APVs of all kinds, often in the form of an AW 18650. There are no reports of explosive failure of these cells, no reports of failure with violent outgas, and very few reports of failure with flame. Because these cells are so stable, it is necessary to question whether or not the cells that failed were in fact counterfeit.
Also there are hybrid cells, but we don't have much data on them (not enough history).
Next in the battery safety order come protected Li-ion cells. These are regular Li-ion cells (specifically, a lithium cobalt dioxide cell) with a controller circuit board in the form of a disc tacked onto the negative pole. They used to be used in basic APVs but they are not the best choice now. They have a limited current delivery (low amps) because you can't put much through the tiny microelectronics the controller board is made with. Anything more than about 2 amps is going to cook those little boards. This means they are a very bad choice for modern VV or VW APVs (and may not even work). In terms of failures, the control circuit can fail, leaving a dead package but with a battery that is otherwise fine. If the controller failed to a straight-through mode then the cell would act as an unprotected Li-ion cell.
Next comes the same arrangement but with the controller board separately located inside the ecig. All production ecigs of the mini and mid-size formats use this arrangement (all 510, KR8, eGo types, etc.). These are therefore an unprotected Li-ion cell with an associated controller circuit board.
The mid-size (eGo type) in this form has the highest failure rate of all ecig batteries. There are many incidents of batteries catching fire while on charge. In theory these are the most 'dangerous' although the risk is from house fires as against personal injury. No one has explained why the failure rate is more pronounced than other formats, but it could be because the chargers are very low quality, or maybe people are connecting a 510 connector charger to an eGo that requires a mini USB charge connection.
The most dangerous set-up of all (and the only one which is actually dangerous in terms of personal injury) is stacking (placing in series) two unprotected Li-ion cells. We know of around 15 incidents where these have exploded or gone into a rocket-mode fail (violent outgas with flames and sufficient gas pressure to launch the device around a room, causing multiple fires). Eight of these incidents were reported on ECF and some were well-documented. Two resulted in severe personal injury to the face, mouth and throat. These violent failures often involved two RCR123a cells or similar (unprotected Li-ion cells of about 16340 size).
Li-Po or Li-poly cells have a question mark over them. These cells are used in APVs with an integral battery pack. Li-Poly cells are known to be the most sensitive of all to impact damage, and it has been demonstrated that some types can catch fire after being dropped hard (see fire videos on the Battery page in the Library). There are no reported ecig incidents with them so far.
So in terms of absolute safety, the best bet is a mini ecig because there are no reports of one failing. In terms of a usable vaping device, the safest is an electronic APV with a removable Li-Mn cell. Next comes a mechanical or basic electrical APV with a single Li-Mn cell. Down the scale a way comes an eGo clone with a no-name charger. Last comes a two-cell non-electronic APV with two unprotected Li-ion cells - and it is to be hoped that no one is crazy enough to either make or use such a thing today. They are literally capable of blowing your face off.
All ecigs use lithium cells, and the safest practical solution (i.e. not including a mini) is any APV using a Li-Mn cell (often called an IMR cell).
Next issue: how does a simple device end up being called advanced? Hmm - put a Zen hybrid next to an old mini like an M401, then try the vape from both. The APV is considerably more advanced by any practical measure you wish to apply. The basic technology might not be, but for once we aren't being confused by the widgets and are basing our value on the end result. If a person had started vaping in the days of the mini cart models or the leaky penstyles, they would know just how advanced today's stuff is - even if the built-in tech may not be. It's the design, the materials, the batteries, the size, the battery life, the durability, the longevity, the vape - and most importantly the result.
Rolygate, that's really useful, thank you. Meanwhile, I'm looking at my ancient ego chargers (one of them has wires showing omg) and wondering about my sanity, oy.
of course ego's have lithium batteries but they have electronics with cut off ; basic protections.
Mechs are not dangerous; the issue is whether to recommend them for any new user ;
Getting back to the OP, how could a Mech be Advanced, if it doesn't some some basic safety features?
Isn't a mech just crude as opposed to advanced.
I joined here in '09 and remember much or what rolygate speaks of...I remember when LR atties were new and the lowest you could find was 1.5 Ohm and how they were killing Ego style batteries and there was much confusion on what batteries to use and if they were sufficient (Li-MN was new and only offered by AW....there were only a handful of mech mods....and while simple on the surface they had the potential to also be very advanced and dangerous...
My point is rolygate's responses to you were possibly the best written thing I've seen in a long time and the gentlest.....especially after reading your statement "It's probably a good way to learn how the things work and how to take care of batteries, but then again, how many want to learn how things work."....because there are those of us out there that believe that people with that attitude not be allowed past the cigalike stock models....
Anyone who is concerned even an iota about their own safety And is interested in an APV should know what a DMM is and how to use it, Ohm's law and how to work it to your advantage, batteries and their C rates and chemistry....I'd actually argue that vv/vw devices are less advanced because they contribute to the dumbing down of the user and the knowledge nessicary to use it safely.
My point is rolygate's responses to you were possibly the best written thing I've seen in a long time and the gentlest.....especially after reading your statement "It's probably a good way to learn how the things work and how to take care of batteries, but then again, how many want to learn how things work."....because there are those of us out there that believe that people with that attitude not be allowed past the cigalike stock models....
Anyone who is concerned even an iota about their own safety And is interested in an APV should know what a DMM is and how to use it, Ohm's law and how to work it to your advantage, batteries and their C rates and chemistry....I'd actually argue that vv/vw devices are less advanced because they contribute to the dumbing down of the user and the knowledge nessicary to use it safely.
Mechs have the potential to be both very advanced and very dangerous...
To say they are not dangerous is to discount several injuries that occurred with mechanical mechs due to user error....
Like the chuck that blew up because the user put 2 non rechargeable 123a batteries in it stacked, vaped, recharged the non rechargeable, and stacked them again...
Or the guy that stacked like 6 batteries in a GGTS to get 24V because he could get them to fit in the tube....that turned into a rocket...
That's sounds like what I'm saying; people who just want to get what works and really couldn't care less how it works and don't want to know, decide to spend the money and jump straight to the Advanced PV.
OK - but now you are talking about detail design issues.
Ideally a mechanical APV should include gas vents (just in case someone uses a Li-ion cell by mistake), a master on/off switch in addition to the actuator (it would have to be an actuator blocker, in a mechmod) and a fuse of some kind. On that I agree.
The problem is that real engineering design is not what the buyer wants: they want the cheapest clone they can get or an original that probably didn't feature great design in the first place. In today's market, pretty shiny things are what the buyer wants and the cheaper they are the better. Engineers look at this stuff and laugh - how can anyone get away with selling a steel tube that you could put Li-ion cells in with no safety features, for hundreds of bucks? Engineering is dead - long live the shiny things. It's the Gucci purse syndrome: the name is the value even if the guy who designed it would be sacked in any other industry. They sure wouldn't have much future in aircraft design.
If I put my name to something it would be designed around the safety functionality and still look good. Starting the concept with a shiny pretty design then stopping there is not engineering, it's handbag merchandising. Apparently that's what we want today.
I think it's just fine if people want the best vape they can get, after they move up from a mini.
There is a debate about if that ought to be a mid-size with a clearo (which is the benchmark ecig today), or some kind of APV. Maybe they should get a mechanical APV (but not with an RBA), as that is the basic device on which everything else is founded on, and is perfectly acceptable in its own right given a suitable head/liquid combo; or maybe they should get a Vamo or Lavatube type as it produces a perfect result for any head (& liquid) except an RBA.
Who knows. Maybe the right answer is an eGo type and a clearo if, like the majority, they don't have a meter and don't want a meter.
There is a debate about if that ought to be a mid-size with a clearo (which is the benchmark ecig today), or some kind of APV. Maybe they should get a mechanical APV (but not with an RBA), as that is the basic device on which everything else is founded on, and is perfectly acceptable in its own right given a suitable head/liquid combo; or maybe they should get a Vamo or Lavatube type as it produces a perfect result for any head (& liquid) except an RBA.
Who knows. Maybe the right answer is an eGo type and a clearo if, like the majority, they don't have a meter and don't want a meter.
If you had a mech that at least DISPLAYed your voltage and ohms, I'd go along with calling that Advanced
Then it wouldn't be a mech....
I for example have been exclusively using a mech since '10 at this point...I wouldn't willingly use anything else...
I got it because I often work outdoors in inclement weather and well I could clean it thoroughly inside and out...
To get better safer performance out of it I learned how to read a DMM, about batteries their chemistries and c ratings, ohms law to work out how to get to the wattage I prefer by manipulating the resistance of the atomizer I chose (rather than relying on a thumbscrew or dial or button), and finally how to build a coil (and all that goes with it) and test it on a throw away tank (EVOD) before starting to get into RDA...an RDA which happens to be a replacement cap for the same 3 year old mech device...
A device that while starting off as a simple tube, had potential to be dangerous...it takes an 18650....I could have chosen to stack 2 123a cells in there I learned better and chose quality protected ICR 18650 cells...when I started building coils that necessitated a change to high drain IMR, not because I was running sub ohm but because it's safer given my use (I know the lowest safe resistance to run on each of my cells)...Sorry but I can't see the potential behind what it's capable of as anything but advanced....
I for example have been exclusively using a mech since '10 at this point...I wouldn't willingly use anything else...
I got it because I often work outdoors in inclement weather and well I could clean it thoroughly inside and out...
To get better safer performance out of it I learned how to read a DMM, about batteries their chemistries and c ratings, ohms law to work out how to get to the wattage I prefer by manipulating the resistance of the atomizer I chose (rather than relying on a thumbscrew or dial or button), and finally how to build a coil (and all that goes with it) and test it on a throw away tank (EVOD) before starting to get into RDA...an RDA which happens to be a replacement cap for the same 3 year old mech device...
A device that while starting off as a simple tube, had potential to be dangerous...it takes an 18650....I could have chosen to stack 2 123a cells in there I learned better and chose quality protected ICR 18650 cells...when I started building coils that necessitated a change to high drain IMR, not because I was running sub ohm but because it's safer given my use (I know the lowest safe resistance to run on each of my cells)...Sorry but I can't see the potential behind what it's capable of as anything but advanced....
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