Got my first RBA and RDA and now wondering "Why?"

[GunMonkeyINTL]

Sorry in advance for the long post, but hopefully some of you will be able to make out what I am trying to achieve and help me make some sense of it.

The wife and I have successfully cut down to 0-3 cigarettes a day for the past three months (don't ask about the remaining 0-3, I have trouble explaining it myself) using various eGo/twst/vv batteries and a mixture of Kanger BDCs (EVOD II/Glass/Mini PTIII). The gear all seems to work well for us. I rebuild our coils, we're starting to play with some DIY liquid, and in-all we're finding that we enjoy it much more than we ever did smoking.

The tanks that the girl steered me to in the first shop I visited have been working out so well that we've stuck with them. We both like to have several flavors on hand at any given time so we occasionally add another tank to the collection but stay with the Kanger BDC-type so I can keep a handful of coil heads built up to fit any of them.

Batteries, on the other hand, keep me searching for the perfect solution. The wife is happy with the eGo 650s, but I prefer VV and have ended up with a handful of different stick batteries. Looking for maximum capacity in a shorter form-factor, I ordered one of the mini box-mod clones, thinking that I may mod it to take an 18650 instead of the built in 1600mah lipo. I picked up a couple 510-eGo adaptors so I could use my existing tanks on it, but decided I'd pick up an RBA as well, since that seems to be what everyone uses on their mods, and I'd need one to see what the features of the mod were all about.

So, I ordered a Fogger v4.4 and it arrived first. I have an iTaste vv, so I figured I could at least try the RBA out at >11 watts while I wait on the mod. I built it up using the same type coil I use in our Kanger heads. I added a couple more wraps so I could use a dual coil and still be above one ohm - aiming for around 1.5. I build two coils, 12 wraps of 30ga Kanthal around a 1/16" drill bit, and ended up at 1.4 ohm. I wicked it with cotton, following the Fogger-specific advice I found online regarding wick size and placement, and gave it a try.

Any way that I tried to hit it that resulted in any vapor production killed my throat. I gathered that my nic content (18mg) was too high for an RBA or RDA, so I cut the Unicorn Poop with straight VG to get around 9mg and it was tolerable, but still certainly not better than the experience I got from the little Kanger tanks. I decided I would run to the vape shop for some low nic juice, and decided to take the built Fogger along to see if the staff there could tell me what, if anything, I was doing wrong.

Dude at the shop put it on his mod, checked the resistance, cranked the wattage up to 18, and proceeded to blow humongous clouds of vapor. He passed it around to a couple other guys working there, and a couple regular customers. The consensus was that the build was good, and to keep doing what I was doing. He then let me use his mod, with my RBA on it while I sat there and did some shopping, got a couple low nic juices, and a squid RBA so I could play around with the deck building some more without having to drain the RBA each time I wanted to experiment.

So, watching experienced people use my RBA, and getting to use it on a higher-powered device, I came to the realization that it only seemed to work if I took aggressive, deep lung draws, no secondary inhale, and just blew it straight out. As soon as I tried to stop the airflow down and take a lighter mouth hit, like I do with my other gear, I was straddling the line between no vapor or hacking my lungs out. It did seem to work better, in general, at the higher wattages the mod in the store produced, and I was able to take smaller, easier hits. I'm holding off judgment until my 30w mod shows up and I have some time to experiment with it at my leisure. For reference, the juice I ended up with and am using it it is 6mg Boosted and 6mg Anti-Lag.

But, and thank you for staying with me, here is where my question, nebulous as it may be, comes in. What's the difference? If the little Kanger tanks, and the way you hit them is so satisfying, is there any reason for me to mess with the RBA/RDA? Is it an inherent difference that you can do lighter mouth-hits with the clearomizers, but have to do deep lung-hits with an RBA? If so, why? While they are laid out a little differently, the build I did on the Fogger is almost identical to a factory Kanger dual coil with more wick, and I can set the airflow to mimic that on my Kanger Tanks, so what is the difference? Is it the capacity in the chimney that changes the way you have to hit it? ...the spacing of the coils, or where the airflow comes in?

Maybe I don't know enough to ask the right question. Why is the experience so different? Or, rather, is it necessarily so different, or I am just doing something differently?

 

[k75srider]

I find it's all about airflow. Lower ohms mean more heat, thus you need more airflow to keep from getting to hot and hacking up pieces of broken lung ,oh aqua lung.

 

[WattWick]

2x 12 wraps of 30 gauge sounds like a whole lot of metal to heat up with "only" 11 watts. I say experiment a bit with different setups. Start with a single coil and see if that's "enough". I'm a firm believer in enough being enough. Just wish I could live by it, too.

My main reason for switching to rebuildables was that the prebuilts was too much hit and miss and I had to rebuild them anyways. It got on my nerves that half of the job of rebuilding was to undo the work I had already paid for. I guess clearos have evolved since then, tho.

If you're happy with Protanks, use Protanks. Ultimately, vaping is a lot about getting a satisfactory experience at the press of a button. If you already get that, and don't suffer from shinyitis or manic tinkering syndrome, Protanks sounds like an excellent choice.

 

[JoppaRoadCruiser]

Yeah I think you're going to have a better experience once you get your 30 watt mod in. I had some similar issues like yours back when I started rebuilding...I was using an mvp and just couldn't get the power to the coils that I needed. Stopped rebuilding until I decided to buy my first mech. I now love dripping and rebuilding. And you are correct about the nic strength....in tanks I vape 18 mgs no problem but when it comes to my drip builds I go with 6 mgs. Basically I have two different nic strengths of all my favorite juices (18 for tanks and 6 for dripping).

As to the tank issue and bad coils, I finally switched over to carto tanks and have been extremely happy. I absolutely love the tanks from ibtanked. Only problem with carto tanks is that once you get a flavor in a carto, you are locked into that flavor. To switch flavors you need to use another carto. Not sure if you have considered carto tanks but they are way better than any of the bdc tanks IMO. Although I am hearing great things about the new aspire bvc coils.

Anyways, when at home I only use my mechs and rda's now. Whenever I'm out of the house I switch to a carto tank on my mvp. This setup works pretty well for me as I get the best of both worlds.

Forgot to add...on my carto tank setup I do mouth to lung hits. Just like smoking a cig. With dripping I use direct lung hits. I didn't think I would like this but after some really good builds at .7 ohms, my rda vape is super smooth for lung hits. Also I'm not familiar with the fogger and the amount of airflow control, but I would look into a dripper that has adjustable air flow so you can experiment around with different settings.

 

[Kemosabe]

Sorry in advance for the long post, but hopefully some of you will be able to make out what I am trying to achieve and help me make some sense of it.

The wife and I have successfully cut down to 0-3 cigarettes a day for the past three months (don't ask about the remaining 0-3, I have trouble explaining it myself) using various eGo/twst/vv batteries and a mixture of Kanger BDCs (EVOD II/Glass/Mini PTIII). The gear all seems to work well for us. I rebuild our coils, we're starting to play with some DIY liquid, and in-all we're finding that we enjoy it much more than we ever did smoking.

The tanks that the girl steered me to in the first shop I visited have been working out so well that we've stuck with them. We both like to have several flavors on hand at any given time so we occasionally add another tank to the collection but stay with the Kanger BDC-type so I can keep a handful of coil heads built up to fit any of them.

Batteries, on the other hand, keep me searching for the perfect solution. The wife is happy with the eGo 650s, but I prefer VV and have ended up with a handful of different stick batteries. Looking for maximum capacity in a shorter form-factor, I ordered one of the mini box-mod clones, thinking that I may mod it to take an 18650 instead of the built in 1600mah lipo. I picked up a couple 510-eGo adaptors so I could use my existing tanks on it, but decided I'd pick up an RBA as well, since that seems to be what everyone uses on their mods, and I'd need one to see what the features of the mod were all about.

So, I ordered a Fogger v4.4 and it arrived first. I have an iTaste vv, so I figured I could at least try the RBA out at >11 watts while I wait on the mod. I built it up using the same type coil I use in our Kanger heads. I added a couple more wraps so I could use a dual coil and still be above one ohm - aiming for around 1.5. I build two coils, 12 wraps of 30ga Kanthal around a 1/16" drill bit, and ended up at 1.4 ohm. I wicked it with cotton, following the Fogger-specific advice I found online regarding wick size and placement, and gave it a try.

Any way that I tried to hit it that resulted in any vapor production killed my throat. I gathered that my nic content (18mg) was too high for an RBA or RDA, so I cut the Unicorn Poop with straight VG to get around 9mg and it was tolerable, but still certainly not better than the experience I got from the little Kanger tanks. I decided I would run to the vape shop for some low nic juice, and decided to take the built Fogger along to see if the staff there could tell me what, if anything, I was doing wrong.

Dude at the shop put it on his mod, checked the resistance, cranked the wattage up to 18, and proceeded to blow humongous clouds of vapor. He passed it around to a couple other guys working there, and a couple regular customers. The consensus was that the build was good, and to keep doing what I was doing. He then let me use his mod, with my RBA on it while I sat there and did some shopping, got a couple low nic juices, and a squid RBA so I could play around with the deck building some more without having to drain the RBA each time I wanted to experiment.

So, watching experienced people use my RBA, and getting to use it on a higher-powered device, I came to the realization that it only seemed to work if I took aggressive, deep lung draws, no secondary inhale, and just blew it straight out. As soon as I tried to stop the airflow down and take a lighter mouth hit, like I do with my other gear, I was straddling the line between no vapor or hacking my lungs out. It did seem to work better, in general, at the higher wattages the mod in the store produced, and I was able to take smaller, easier hits. I'm holding off judgment until my 30w mod shows up and I have some time to experiment with it at my leisure. For reference, the juice I ended up with and am using it it is 6mg Boosted and 6mg Anti-Lag.

But, and thank you for staying with me, here is where my question, nebulous as it may be, comes in. What's the difference? If the little Kanger tanks, and the way you hit them is so satisfying, is there any reason for me to mess with the RBA/RDA? Is it an inherent difference that you can do lighter mouth-hits with the clearomizers, but have to do deep lung-hits with an RBA? If so, why? While they are laid out a little differently, the build I did on the Fogger is almost identical to a factory Kanger dual coil with more wick, and I can set the airflow to mimic that on my Kanger Tanks, so what is the difference? Is it the capacity in the chimney that changes the way you have to hit it? ...the spacing of the coils, or where the airflow comes in?

Maybe I don't know enough to ask the right question. Why is the experience so different? Or, rather, is it necessarily so different, or I am just doing something differently?

for me, to answer to 'Why rbas' is nested in the way i smoked cigarettes. i was always a deep, lung inhaler since day 1. i dont know why, thats just the way i learned to smoke. i assume many people smoke/d like i did. when i switched to vaping, i had to learn the mouth-to-lung inhale (i started with cig-a-like stick batts) and it was incredibly unsatisfying. i simply could not get the nicotine and TH my mind/body craved. i kept ramping up the nic%...all the way to 24mg, and that still wasnt cutting it. i decided that i would not go over 24 and needed a new delivery system. well, let me tell you, 24 ended up being too high once i got the right delivery system that delivered more of the advertised amount of nicotine. i was truly getting close to or all 24 milligrams of that nicotine. i easily stepped back down to 18, then 12 rather quickly.

it was a tough journey as i really really wanted to give up cigarettes but my delivery system was hindering my progression. 24mg should be more than enough for the average smoker to quit but for me it was barely cutting it. instead of jumping to outlandish levels of nic, i decided to give rbas a try. after all, i liked the idea of building coils instead of paying some factory worker to do it for me. plus i just like taking things apart and putting them back together. but anyway, i had to move to rbas because their functionality most closely resembled the way i smoked. for you, thats not the case (but it still helps you in other areas to rebuild) so id stick with what is most pleasurable to you. the weirdest part is, i wasnt even a heavy smoker. i smoked about a third to half a pack per day. but i took very deep draws, directly into the lungs. in fact i preferred a stale cigarete to a fresh one because stale ones burned faster, creating a much more pleasurable amount of smoke.

i know im unique (but not alone! many vapers vape like me). i learned this because just about every single person i let hit my rig coughs either slightly or uncontrollably. yet when i hit my rig, its right as rain. awesome TH, big vapor and big flavor. most dont understand how i can hit it and not cough. i have determined that their 'cough' is my 'perfect TH'.

 

[bm2112]

The same reason you dislike your RBA is the same reason I love my RDA. On Kanger tanks I have to take long, tight mouth draws for a small cloud of vapor. On my RDA, I act as if I'm taking a deep breath and draw cool vapor right into my lungs.

Since you already know how to rebuild coils on your non-rebuildables, there's no need to venture into RBAs/RDAs unless you get tired of the vapor production. I made the switch because I wanted to "cloud chase" and get an airier draw, but if you can save money and still stay off cigs then go for it.

 

[GunMonkeyINTL]

k75 - I did notice that I can hit the Fogger better with the air ring opened up - which is counter to what I would have expected. I don't think that my build is overly low-resistance, but I do notice it getting harsher and harsher as I close the airflow up.

WW - thanks. I did wonder about the amount of Kanthal being one of the deltas, but, while I don't know what gauge is in the 2.0 ohm Kanger stock dual coils, I don't think it is a whole lot less metal than is in my Fogger build right now. Maybe the Kangers are like 32 ga, or something. Either way, the build is over twice the metal in my normal mini protank rebuild head which I usually like around 7 watts. I guess coil size vs. power was not something I had considered or explored in my learning about coils thus far. I definitely did like the experience on the mod at 18w better, though, it still seemed like I was having to take direct lung hits rather than mouth hits. A picture of the build is at the bottom.


Joppa - That you, as well, for the well-considered response. I was a huge Ween fan back in high school and college but haven't really kept up with them since The Mollusk.

I've used 20 or 25 factory Kanger coils and haven't had a bad one yet. My first home-rolled one was lower resistance than I wanted, but that gave me a frame of reference and I haven't had a bad one since. Bad coils haven't really been a problem for me.

I do use cartomizers on a couple 510 batteries that I keep for use in certain situations, and they seem to do what they advertise pretty well. My only criticism of cartomizers thus far is that, where a coil/head gets nasty and goes south pretty quickly, cartomizers seem to trail off in vape quality rather slowly. It always seems like I try to go a couple refills more than I should have, decide that cartomizers categorically suck, then finally switch to a new one and realize (again) that I really do like them for the cig-alike experience. I've never tried them in a tank format, but, like I said, I've been really happy with the Kanger BDC design.

The Fogger is a RBA kinda similar to the Kayfun (or so I understand). It has an adjustable air ring that opens up to almost no perceived airway resistance, and closes down to where you can't draw any air through it at all. The Octopus RDA I got doesn't have adjustable air, but, fortunately, the stock air hole is very small, so I can open it up or add additional ones once I start to figure out what I like.

The hit you describe is exactly what I'm looking for - "just like smoking a cig." My ideal hit would be a quick (~1 sec.), tight (not airy) mouth hit, a shallow throat-inhale, and a moderately slow exhale with similar volume to a cigarette hit - not looking to make clouds.

The Kanger BDC is nearly perfect. It's exactly as described except that I have to draw on it for 2 or 3 seconds, maybe 4, to get the right volume. The long, deep lung-direct hit I've found so far on the RBA is definitely moving in the wrong direction. I guess what I was hoping was that an RBA, pumping some wattage, would make the vapor quicker, so I could take quick, shallow drags that produce the amount of vapor it takes me 2-4 seconds to get with the Kanger BDCs. Not sure if I can get there from here, but that is why I am experimenting with the RBA/RDA and 30w mod.

 

[GunMonkeyINTL]

I started the response above and didn't get to finish it right away, so I missed Kemosabe and BM2112's responses.

I'm not sure if it just happens that both of you happen to like the part that I happen to dislike so far about my RBA, or if I'm just reading this into the consistency of your responses, but, should I take it that direct-lung hits are the only way an RBA works well? Is there a build/power/technique that allows quick, warm mouth hits with as much or more vapor production as my Kanger BDCs, just with a quicker draw?

I guess that's the question I've been searching blind for - it just took a couple posts and a couple thoughtful responses to get me there.

 

[JoppaRoadCruiser]

k75 - I did notice that I can hit the Fogger better with the air ring opened up - which is counter to what I would have expected. I don't think that my build is overly low-resistance, but I do notice it getting harsher and harsher as I close the airflow up.

WW - thanks. I did wonder about the amount of Kanthal being one of the deltas, but, while I don't know what gauge is in the 2.0 ohm Kanger stock dual coils, I don't think it is a whole lot less metal than is in my Fogger build right now. Maybe the Kangers are like 32 ga, or something. Either way, the build is over twice the metal in my normal mini protank rebuild head which I usually like around 7 watts. I guess coil size vs. power was not something I had considered or explored in my learning about coils thus far. I definitely did like the experience on the mod at 18w better, though, it still seemed like I was having to take direct lung hits rather than mouth hits. A picture of the build is at the bottom.


Joppa - That you, as well, for the well-considered response. I was a huge Ween fan back in high school and college but haven't really kept up with them since The Mollusk.

I've used 20 or 25 factory Kanger coils and haven't had a bad one yet. My first home-rolled one was lower resistance than I wanted, but that gave me a frame of reference and I haven't had a bad one since. Bad coils haven't really been a problem for me.

I do use cartomizers on a couple 510 batteries that I keep for use in certain situations, and they seem to do what they advertise pretty well. My only criticism of cartomizers thus far is that, where a coil/head gets nasty and goes south pretty quickly, cartomizers seem to trail off in vape quality rather slowly. It always seems like I try to go a couple refills more than I should have, decide that cartomizers categorically suck, then finally switch to a new one and realize (again) that I really do like them for the cig-alike experience. I've never tried them in a tank format, but, like I said, I've been really happy with the Kanger BDC design.

The Fogger is a RBA kinda similar to the Kayfun (or so I understand). It has an adjustable air ring that opens up to almost no perceived airway resistance, and closes down to where you can't draw any air through it at all. The Octopus RDA I got doesn't have adjustable air, but, fortunately, the stock air hole is very small, so I can open it up or add additional ones once I start to figure out what I like.

The hit you describe is exactly what I'm looking for - "just like smoking a cig." My ideal hit would be a quick (~1 sec.), tight (not airy) mouth hit, a shallow throat-inhale, and a moderately slow exhale with similar volume to a cigarette hit - not looking to make clouds.

The Kanger BDC is nearly perfect. It's exactly as described except that I have to draw on it for 2 or 3 seconds, maybe 4, to get the right volume. The long, deep lung-direct hit I've found so far on the RBA is definitely moving in the wrong direction. I guess what I was hoping was that an RBA, pumping some wattage, would make the vapor quicker, so I could take quick, shallow drags that produce the amount of vapor it takes me 2-4 seconds to get with the Kanger BDCs. Not sure if I can get there from here, but that is why I am experimenting with the RBA/RDA and 30w mod.

View attachment 360216

Right on brother. Ran across a few others that are fans of the brown around this area. Just saw the moistboyz back in march and Deaner was absolutely melting faces all night long. Great hard rocking show.

Anyways I totally understand where you are coming from with the lung hits vs mouth to lung hits. I'm essentially the same way but for some reason I can now handle lung hits with my dripper. Not sure why either because if I do that out of a carto or any other setup, it makes me gag. From my understanding, people that drill out bigger airholes are doing it to increase airflow thus making bigger clouds. These are all lung hits. The reason I mentioned an adjustable airflow rda is because you could try experimenting with decreasing the airflow, thus getting a less "airy" pull. But you would still be hitting the issue of coil heat up time. Might have to try experimenting with lower ohm builds/less coils. On your fogger, I would look at doing a single coil build with the airflow reduced.

These are all just random ideas that may not work at all. I don't have any experience with rba's like the fogger and I'm just now getting settled into coil wrapping and rda's. Anyways man I hope you find something that works for you. Rebuilding is so much fun IMO. I enjoy that almost as much as vaping itself.

 

[JoppaRoadCruiser]

I started the response above and didn't get to finish it right away, so I missed Kemosabe and BM2112's responses.

I'm not sure if it just happens that both of you happen to like the part that I happen to dislike so far about my RBA, or if I'm just reading this into the consistency of your responses, but, should I take it that direct-lung hits are the only way an RBA works well? Is there a build/power/technique that allows quick, warm mouth hits with as much or more vapor production as my Kanger BDCs, just with a quicker draw?

I guess that's the question I've been searching blind for - it just took a couple posts and a couple thoughtful responses to get me there.

This too. I've been trying to figure out this question since deciding to jump into rebuilding. Look forward to checking this thread and other responses from people more experienced than I am.

Just wanted to add this link. Googled around and found this thread.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/rebuildable-atomizer-systems/534530-rda-mouth-lung.html

 

[Yotdawglife]

I think you would be more intrested in a kayfun style atomizer. Plus your nic is way too high making you hack a lung up. I dropped down from 12/18mg to 3 and 0 mixed together and still get an intense nic rush.

 

[Yotdawglife]

Also I am imagining in my head that you are taking mouth to lung hits in order to get that throat hit? You can go lower in Nic with a high pg mix to do this and not hack a lung out aswell at least from my experience.

 

[GunMonkeyINTL]

So, in a fit of great timing, the mod was waiting for me when I got home last night. I wasn't expecting it for another week or 10 days, but really didn't know for sure. I had to do some work outside so I didn't get to play with it right away but, when I did, I screwed the fogger on it, set it to 18w (since that was what I knew), and tried it. MUCH better experience.

I was about to log in here and ask you to disregard my previous posts, that I had figured out what the RBA was all about. Then, without changing the settings, I screwed one of my mini protanks on it. Eureka! The hit was exactly as I described looking for; short, shallow, and reasonable, cigarette-like cloud/exhale. I tried 4 or 5 different tanks/flavors and 18 watts was a little too high for some of them, so I dialed the power back and found that the sweet-spot for the Kanger BDC (both factory and home-rolled coils) seemed to be in the 12-15 watt range.

So, I guess I'm back to my original question, albeit with less conviction. I still seem to like the Kanger BDCs better than the RBA, but the RBA is VERY usable now. It's kind of fun to play with, actually. I set it at 25 watts and blew a cloud so big that the wife's cat looked up from across the room, saw it, and ran and hid under the bed. It looked like the stuffing from an entire pillow hanging in the air. Not the smoking-like experience I'm looking for, obviously, but still kind of fun to do it and it not be harsh.

It's the same height as a regular eGo 650, but doesn't look goofy with the RBA on it, and improves the performance of the BDCs I already knew I liked.

I'll keep playing with the RBA. I'm certainly not going to throw it away. But, I think the answer I was looking for is a Kanger BDC at higher power. It turned out to be the battery after all.

 

[GunMonkeyINTL]

I think you would be more intrested in a kayfun style atomizer. Plus your nic is way too high making you hack a lung up. I dropped down from 12/18mg to 3 and 0 mixed together and still get an intense nic rush.

I'm not sure how different the Fogger is from the Kayfun, but I am told they are at least fairly similar. Slightly different wicking arrangement but, otherwise, same concept - or so I understand. I already got the lower-nic liquid. That was my first step. Fortunately, even if the RBA doesn't pan out, the Boosted and Anti-Lag are great juices, so I'll use them even if I retire the RBA.

Also I am imagining in my head that you are taking mouth to lung hits in order to get that throat hit? You can go lower in Nic with a high pg mix to do this and not hack a lung out aswell at least from my experience.

Actually, not really. I thought throat hit was more important at first, but, as I get further and further away from my addiction to cigarettes, I find it less and less important. I've had plenty of hits that were dissatisfying because they had too much throat hit, but can't say I've ever been dissatisfied when a hit had too little. Its more about the flavor and cigarette-like vapor volume to me.

 

[EuroChris]

It's very important to clean the RBA before use. If you haven't cleaned it properly, it could very well be the machining oil that gets you that big throat hit.

 

[GunMonkeyINTL]

I rinsed/soaked in hot water, then vodka, then hot water again as soon as I took it out of the box.
I'm fairly sensitive to contaminate tastes - poor quality plastic tanks, dirty silicate etc. - and I'm not getting any of that from it.