Harvard Eliquid Study Today

[VNeil]

There was a reason i repeatedly asked you ( and you repeatedly refused to answer ) if you have personally read the NIOSH studies, or relied on Skoonys interpretation. NIOSH has different sampling and analytical methods for DI/AP vapor and air borne powder, because both were present in the factories with sick workers. Here is just one example of sick workers exposed to vapor from heated liquid :

Lung-destroying diacetyl still harming workers, allowed in e-cigs

The yellow liquid used to flavor candy, chips, coffee and e-cigarettes smells and tastes like butter. It's hard to tell from looking at it that it can obliterate your lungs if you breathe it in.

Emanuel Diaz de Leon didn't know it as he poured jugs of the concentration into giant vats at a coffee roasting plant in Tyler, Texas.

Neither did his co-workers, who spent 12-hour days roasting and grinding the coated beans that would later be sold in grocery stores and restaurants nationwide as hazelnut flavored coffee.

The workers never guessed it even when they noticed they were short of breath, when what they thought were colds and allergies worsened, then never went away.

Doctors assumed they had asthma and bronchitis .....

You keep asking about NIOSH studies but then post a link to sensationalist journalism? Whatever. Coffee roasting is a complex business, in terms of diacetyl exposure. They focused on one worker, who mixed flavors into coffee. But diacetyl is released in the natural process of roasting coffee. If the plant is grinding coffee then there is a tremendous amount of coffee dust in the air, including diacetyl. So even if they were mixing liquid diacetyl into the coffee, as the article suggests, that is not necessarily the causative agent. Diacetyl was introduced into the air at least three completely different ways, mixing, roasting and grinding.

The article suggests the worker's lungs were destroyed after only 18 months on the job, and that is consistent with the popcorn factory reports. If smoking had any relationship to this, people would be destroying their lungs in their teens. Vapers, now going on 7 years of vaping, would be dead by now. BO would be a massive epidemic in the vaping community since according to your link, 18 months is more than enough.

But we'll ignore all the inconsistencies. That stuff is surely going to kill us, even if none of it makes sense.

 

[Marc411]

I'm not sure if this has been posted, if it has I apologize but it puts the Harvard study into perspective.

Everybody is talking about vaping and "popcorn lung" again, so here's a graph

 

[VNeil]

There have been several suggestions here that subohm vaping exposes the user to far more diacetyl than smokers. Not true at all...

One study suggests 330 micrograms of diacetyl per cig. A 3 PAD smoker would inhale 19,800 micrograms total.

A subohm vaper consuming 20ml of juice per day, with an extremely high dikatone juice averaging 1000 micrograms/ml would vape about the same amount.

There are/were lots of 3 PAD smokers, I was one of them. If you want to play a game of one-upmanship you can speculate even higher juice consumption rates, or perhaps absurdly high dikotone levels but basically even extreme vaping does not exceed common smoking rates. And if you find me a 30ml/day vaper I'll match you with a 4 PAD smoker....

Hope you didn't mind my interrupting all the propaganda with a few facts and numbers....

 

[herb]

When did the Thread Title, Op post change?

LOL, there's so many of these threads now i lose track , good catch.


OK , just took a peak at the article and the OP of the thread said this is old news despite a date of a week or two ago as i suppose the article was regurgitated again.

This article is like all the others , not very relevant , they even bring up formaldehyde which is very old news and is only relevant when it involves numerous dry hits which is rare with experienced vapors these days.

The first line below says everything people need to know , they should just stop with this stuff until data that is taken from long term studies .

In every test i have seen they measure e cigalike cartridges instead of what most people use these days , they also assume all e juice has the exact same amount of diketones in them and thats been proven BS just by one vendors test results alone .

"Five Pawns" initial testing had levels higher than real cigs so that another reason to not take these results as fact.

There is still much we do not know about e-cigarettes. In addition to containing varying levels of the addictive substance nicotine, they also contain other cancer-causing chemicals, such as formaldehyde, and as our study shows, flavoring chemicals that can cause lung damage,” said study co-author David Christiani, Elkan Blout Professor of Environmental Genetics.

Diacetyl , Acetyl propionyl and Acetoin are things i prefer to avoid because there is plenty of great e juices that don't contain any of them.


Uses for acetylpropionyl include:

• a solvent for cellulose acetate, paints, inks, and lacquers,
• a starting material for dyes, pesticides and drugs,
• and an artificial flavor, with an odor described as "buttery, cheesy, sweet, nutty, fruity, creamy, caramel".

As a flavoring agent, it is a controversial ingredient in some e-liquid products for use with electronic cigarettes.

According to the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health , inhalation of acetyl propionyl causes respiratory tract epithelial damage and fibrosis to lungs in animal studies.

It also causes genetic changes in the animals' brains. It was found to cause both intraluminal and intramural fibrotic airway lesions in rats.

One study of the composition of 159 different e-liquid products, performed by Farsalinos et al., concluded that the use of acetyl propionyl and diacetyl in E-liquids represents an avoidable risk, and additionally that proper measures should be taken by E-liquid manufacturers and flavoring suppliers to eliminate these hazards from the products.

Now i understand your probably saying they are test's done on Rats and not people , true but my family history reveals that i have a small amount of rodent DNA, (my mother has confirmed) so this study is relevant to me and my continued survival .

 

[inspects]

Prolly won't make any difference anyway...get ready for DIY.

E-cigarettes big loser in spending bill

 

[crxess]

Prolly won't make any difference anyway...get ready for DIY.

E-cigarettes big loser in spending bill

My Condolences to the Families of Smokers across America

 

[WillyZee]

IMO, big cloud sub vaping is more appealing to today's youth than smoking could ever be ... it really evolved fast, from a small minority mech mod guys ... to every new vaper today.

Cloud is King


Sent via iPhone

 

[beckdg]

This All or Nothing Debate is Ridiculous.

Bingo!

Tapatyped

 

[Jman8]

Actually there are a few people in here that said they do not think cigarettes are as bad as many make them sound which is just "mind boggling " to me lol.

I be one of those people. Prepared to debate this point you are making. Thinking you're not.

"Cigarettes are bad" is a subjective statement. Can say the same thing about ANYTHING, and how would anyone convince the person making that assertion otherwise?

But saying cigarettes are not as bad as we've been lead to believe (via propaganda) is there for those who care to do research.

This notion that anything is inherently bad/evil is near the crux of the problem. People (here) think it about smokes and people (here) think it about diketones. That's fine, keep thinking it and keep your mind closed. I don't care. But espouse that on open forum and I say prepare for battle. Good luck!

 

[Jman8]

Why do people keep asking "where is the scientific data" question when they know all too well it will be quite a few more years for that info surfaces.

People say it because in the known cases of problems from diketones the previous scientific data manifested in months, not years. Therefore a reasonable person, using common sense, would understand that it ought to have manifested by now in vapers. A person skirting the issue is holding out hope(?) that the bad news will arrive some day in the future (i.e. 30 years from now) so they can be proven right.

If vaping took off in the 80,s or 90's all that data would be readily available but the overwhelming majority have only been vaping for a couple years at this point.

It appears that since updated data is not available at this time because again, it's way too early in the game , some folks prefer to throw caution into the wind instead of taking the more "common sense approach" of playing it safe until reliable data becomes available.

Thats fine , we all deal with the consequences of our choices.

It is clearly not too early in the game when it comes to inhaling diketones.

Once again, you are raising point(s) that suggests EVERYTHING ANTZ are saying could be (or ought to be) held as true for vaping. Where's the scientific data on inhaling nicotine? We have none. What? You want to point to previous smokers? That can't possibly apply because we are talking about vaping. So, by this (strange) logic, we have no basis for any defense of any sort for vaping. Can't say it is safer than smoking cause how would we know (without the long term data)?

That's where your nonsensical approach leaves us.

And then when you consider that things could change because of fear mongering, then if say diketones are removed and long term data of the 30 year variety shows that the substitutes are 'gravely dangerous,' we will never have (actually) known what the diketone consequences would be. So, this gamble that people talk about with regards to allowing diketones to stay is EQUALLY APPLICABLE to all aspects of vaping.

In reality, it's equally applicable to all aspects of living.

 

[Jman8]

Waiting for what possibly might happen 20 year's down the road is
a dodge.

It's a complete and utterly ridiculous dodge.

 

[Jman8]

Facts:

Every known cause of BO is a powdered compound in a dusty environment. Coal dust in coal mines, cotton dust in textile mills, and powdered diacetyl in popcorn factories.

As a result, the medical world considers BO a "dust born disease". Thanks to Skoony for providing a number of links to that.

There are NO KNOWN CASES of BO outside of dusty industrial situations.

ETA: There are no known cases of BO among vapers either. Although vaping has been around "only" 7 years or so, it is a FACT that BO showed up in popcorn workers in two years or less.

The fact that there are one billion smokers, with NOT ONE CASE of BO found, and MILLIONS OF AUTOPSIED lungs showing no evidence of BO supports the idea that the science and the medical community were right- diaceytl, like other agents of BO, are only dangerous in powdered/dust form. And of course, the medical community finds no link between smoking and BO because that community knows about all the millions of autopsied lungs showing no evidence of BO.

There is no reason to think vaping will be any different. It may turn out that way, but it would be surprising if it does.

Everyone is free to choose what to vape or to go back to cigs if they can't deal with the ugly propaganda here and elsewhere. That is a totally different thing than a review of the FACTS without speculation and propaganda. I never try to predict the future to find some ultimate truth. I merely point out that the FACTS I outlined above suggest diacytl is safe, at least in roughly the quantities in cig smoke (equivalent to about 300 micrograms/ml of juice)

Why waiting for the long term data is a farce.

This is what the pro-free market, anti-fear mongering crowd has to say for its side.

The other side's argument: yeah, but maybe, there could be a teeny tiny chance that there is a potential for the possibility that over the long term, that maybe possibly there would be severe consequences. And when (forget 'if') that happens, I'll be saying see, I told you so!!!

 

[Rossum]

I be one of those people. Prepared to debate this point you are making. Thinking you're not.

"Cigarettes are bad" is a subjective statement. Can say the same thing about ANYTHING, and how would anyone convince the person making that assertion otherwise?

But saying cigarettes are not as bad as we've been lead to believe (via propaganda) is there for those who care to do research.

This notion that anything is inherently bad/evil is near the crux of the problem. People (here) think it about smokes and people (here) think it about diketones. That's fine, keep thinking it and keep your mind closed. I don't care. But espouse that on open forum and I say prepare for battle. Good luck!

You're not really trying to say that cigarettes are harmless, are you?

 

[Jman8]

So now you throw out the worst case excess usage card. Those that want to subohm high diketone juice will pave that road. But there is no evidence whatsoever the result will be any different than cigs. You can increase the eJuice dosage and I can find people that smoked more packs a day, with no BO in evidence. It's a specious argument but it's all you are left with. And my news is very relevant. It is not old news, it is THE TRUTH.

I like how news from 2010-ish is 'old news' but the data we seek is not available cause vaping is brand new.

Or how diketones exceed that of smokes in some cases, but when you see the vaper who used to be 5 pack a day smoker who's lungs ought to be beyond permanently damaged, is completely neglected in this dialogue. And if that person reports going to doctor, doctor doing exams and stating there lungs are back to that of a non-smoker's, then how that (or any similar case) would show the irreversible damage claim is either false or that diketones in smoking/inhaling aren't a problem. As in zero problem. Cause if you can smoke 5 packs a day and get around 5000 ug of diketones a day for decades, but later be told by medical professional that after stopping smoking, your lungs are fine, then seriously, what could possibly be the issue?

I also like how all the fear mongering vapers on diketones who are previous smokers would already have permanently damaged lungs by their own account, and think now would be time to change that permanent condition to something, what, less permanent? Never mind those threads where you bragged about your increase in health, we can just ignore that, while you prattle on about how diketones are so severely damaging.

It's humorous, really.

 

[Jman8]

You're not really trying to say that cigarettes are harmless, are you?

You're not really asking a serious question, are you?

 

[VNeil]

People say it because in the known cases of problems from diketones the previous scientific data manifested in months, not years. Therefore a reasonable person, using common sense, would understand that it ought to have manifested by now in vapers. A person skirting the issue is holding out hope(?) that the bad news will arrive some day in the future (i.e. 30 years from now) so they can be proven right.

It is clearly not too early in the game when it comes to inhaling diketones.

In addition to more than enough time to show up in vapers, compared to the 2 years or less that it showed up in all flavoring industry workers, we can't forget the smokers. Those who are in denial of the facts will, of course, come up with all sorts of reasons why we should ignore that null result among one BILLION smokers, plus all their hundreds of millions of deceased predecessors, millions of which were autopsied, but none of those claims can hold up to any scrutiny at all.

The facts are very simple:

All known agents of BO show up within two years or less and ALL involve heavy concentrations of dust born agents. There are a number of different agents but the common denominator is quite clear: dusty industrial environments

There are NO KNOWN cases of BO originating outside of dusty environments

ONE BILLION smokers have confirmed the above

NINE MILLION vapers just in the USA and surely over a hundred million worldwide have confirmed the same.

There are very few ingested or inhaled substances that have been "field tested" by such a large but well defined control group. Therefore, this is as close to an Ultimate Truth as is possible.

As I pointed out earlier, oddly enough, the safest, most tested flavoring used in eJuice is Diacetyl. All the others, including the replacements, are more along the lines of Ignorance Is Bliss. Including Acetoin, AP, and the Butyric Acid now being used to replace those diketones.

(I think it was in this thread that a member pointed out that Butyric Acid (BA) is listed, at least by Phillip Morris, as an ingredient in cigs, but the amounts were minute, between 0.001 and 0.0001%. I calculated somewhere less than 10 micrograms/cig, verses 334 micrograms per cig of Diacetyl. Although I have not seen numbers, I would assume that BA is now included in some "Diketone Free" juices in the same concentrations as the diketones they replaced, which could be as much as 1000 micrograms/ml? )

 

[VNeil]

I like how news from 2010-ish is 'old news' but the data we seek is not available cause vaping is brand new.

Or how diketones exceed that of smokes in some cases, but when you see the vaper who used to be 5 pack a day smoker who's lungs ought to be beyond permanently damaged, is completely neglected in this dialogue. And if that person reports going to doctor, doctor doing exams and stating there lungs are back to that of a non-smoker's, then how that (or any similar case) would show the irreversible damage claim is either false or that diketones in smoking/inhaling aren't a problem. As in zero problem. Cause if you can smoke 5 packs a day and get around 5000 ug of diketones a day for decades, but later be told by medical professional that after stopping smoking, your lungs are fine, then seriously, what could possibly be the issue?

I also like how all the fear mongering vapers on diketones who are previous smokers would already have permanently damaged lungs by their own account, and think now would be time to change that permanent condition to something, what, less permanent? Never mind those threads where you bragged about your increase in health, we can just ignore that, while you prattle on about how diketones are so severely damaging.

It's humorous, really.

Apparently an attempt was made to pass off incontrovertible evidence as "old news". But clear evidence never goes stale, never gets old. Only the arguments that defy credibility, attempting to make a mountain of evidence carried by a 50 Ton Elephant go away. But that evidence will never go away and it is unlikely that the results from the next billion smokers will be any different than the last billion.

Five packs a day (100 cigs) would get you 33,400 micrograms. Further reinforcing your point. Those suggesting "extreme vapers" are exceeding what smokers inhaled are simply ignoring the math to make a false point. But hey, it's all propaganda so hopefully no one is paying too much attention.... wrong.

 

[Jman8]

Five packs a day (100 cigs) would get you 33,400 micrograms.

I thought it was higher than 5000, but didn't want to say 50,000 and be way over estimating. Glad my conservative number is something that taking the worst eLiquid ever, and realizing you'd need to vape 80 ml a day or so of it, in order to match the guy who smoked 5 packs a day.... for decades. And now plausibly has healthy lungs after he quit and started vaping.

Me, I vape 2 ml a day (or less), so not feeling like the danger is too great over here. But when I look at the 5 pack a day smoker and realize the FACTS, I'm thinking this danger is, how you say, non-existent. I guess though if you were vaping 100 ml a day of the highest diketone eLiquid ever, then in 287 years, there might be a problem. And no one can convince me otherwise. Just wait, in 287 years, I'll be proven right.

 

[VNeil]

I thought it was higher than 5000, but didn't want to say 50,000 and be way over estimating. Glad my conservative number is something that taking the worst eLiquid ever, and realizing you'd need to vape 80 ml a day or so of it, in order to match the guy who smoked 5 packs a day.... for decades. And now plausibly has healthy lungs after he quit and started vaping.

Me, I vape 2 ml a day (or less), so not feeling like the danger is too great over here. But when I look at the 5 pack a day smoker and realize the FACTS, I'm thinking this danger is, how you say, non-existent. I guess though if you were vaping 100 ml a day of the highest diketone eLiquid ever, then in 287 years, there might be a problem. And no one can convince me otherwise. Just wait, in 287 years, I'll be proven right.

I'll tell you something I find strange... it is my understanding that smoker's COPD is irreversible and lung degradation continues for the rest of your life. If that is the case, and considering that on this site, for example, we have over a quarter of a million smokers and ex smokers, all along the spectrum of COPD, from mild to severe, then I would have expected to see numerous reports of people having continued lung difficulties, even after quitting smoking. And, of course, the way people generally incorrectly relate correlation to cause, I would expect to see hundreds of people here complaining about continuing lung issues, and also of course blaming it on vaping, regardless of source.

Yet those cases here are amazingly rare. I can count on one hand the number I've read. Reports of clearer lungs are almost universal.

It absolutely defies belief that there is some Silent Epidemic of BO happening in the vaping community. Quite the opposite, vaping more resembles some sort of miracle cure, if all the hand wringing over COPD are correct. Maybe it is, maybe inhaling an antibacterial/antiviral all day long does some miracle work.

 

[crxess]

I am more concerned with the overdose of FDA than the minor trace of DA in my e-liquids. That added (F) element is a Killer<to my freedom to vape>

I want to exit life doing NOT