Heat Sink for Attys...

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Vapomaniac

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Oct 15, 2010
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Hey, all...

I'm currently building my own Variable voltage PV with a USB passthrough port (will automatically switch from batt to external power when plugged in, but will NOT charge batts in place). I've noticed that my 510 attys can get pretty hot when I'm vaping, even at 3.7v, which causes all sorts of atty issues. I was wondering if a small radial fin heat sink surrounding the atty would mitigate some of those issues by wicking away the excess heat. Has anyone ever seen a PV with a heat sink or thought about doing this?

Was thinkin' about somethin' like this:

heatsink.jpg


Drilled out to fit over the atty connector and about 75% of the atty.

Marie



(I think this post is in the wrong forum. Sorry 'bout that...)
 
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OldDude1

Full Member
Sep 7, 2010
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New York
Greetings Vapomaniac:

I have also attempted to address heat dispersal on the standard 510 atomizers I use on a Precise P-18 at (3.7 volts). So far 18ga uncoated copper wire wound several layers thick around the full length of the atomizer has worked best. The problem appears to be achieving the best internal diameter of the heat sink. Optimum heat conduction requires a tight contact against the largest possible outer surface of the atomizer tube whereas installation and removal of the heat sink or atomizer requires adequate clearance between the tube itself and the heat dispersal coil. So far, I have been able to achieve either acceptable heat dissipation or ease of parts exchange. One or the other but not both. I like your radial radiator design. It looks highly functional and cosmetically appealing. Please let me know how it works out. OldDude1
 

forcedfuel50

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ECF Veteran
I've always been of the opinion we don't want a heat sink, it will cause the heating chamber to run cooler and cool the outflowing air thus reducing throat hit and vapor production. It's why many like to add more voltage to their atomizer, as it creates more heat. If ones desire is to make the atomizer so it is cooler to the touch, the solution to me would be an insulator over the atomizer, not a conductor (such as a heat sink) thus keeping the inside of the atomizer hot and the exterior cool to the touch.
 

Vapomaniac

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Oct 15, 2010
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Long Island
I've always been of the opinion we don't want a heat sink, it will cause the heating chamber to run cooler and cool the outflowing air thus reducing throat hit and vapor production. It's why many like to add more voltage to their atomizer, as it creates more heat. If ones desire is to make the atomizer so it is cooler to the touch, the solution to me would be an insulator over the atomizer, not a conductor (such as a heat sink) thus keeping the inside of the atomizer hot and the exterior cool to the touch.

Except that the excess heat increases the resistance of the atty, which could cause it to burn out sooner, and can cause the fluid to burn or break down and gunk up the atty. Having a heat sink surrounding the atty would wick away the excess heat after the fact ( but won't cause the element to burn cooler), and shouldn't have a negative effect on the atty while the power is on; i.e. shouldn't negate the benefits of higher voltage devices/LR attys. But it could well increase atty life and increase time between cleanings.
 
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Vapomaniac

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Oct 15, 2010
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Long Island
Greetings Vapomaniac:

I have also attempted to address heat dispersal on the standard 510 atomizers I use on a Precise P-18 at (3.7 volts). So far 18ga uncoated copper wire wound several layers thick around the full length of the atomizer has worked best. The problem appears to be achieving the best internal diameter of the heat sink. Optimum heat conduction requires a tight contact against the largest possible outer surface of the atomizer tube whereas installation and removal of the heat sink or atomizer requires adequate clearance between the tube itself and the heat dispersal coil. So far, I have been able to achieve either acceptable heat dissipation or ease of parts exchange. One or the other but not both. I like your radial radiator design. It looks highly functional and cosmetically appealing. Please let me know how it works out. OldDude1

I thought about that. A heat-conductive grease or gel could work on a looser application, but that would be messy. I guess I'll have to play around with it.
 

Vapomaniac

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Oct 15, 2010
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aluminum has the best transfer of heat.
might have to check into this also

if you made something simular to a heatsink clamp (only thing i can think of is those clips for hair like below)
6074503

that way its on their no matter the size of the the manufacture.and wouldn't slide off

Yes, aluminum has a low specific heat as compared to most other common metals. The clamp idea certainly has merit. The problem is, I don't have access to a machine shop (and wouldn't necessarily know what to do with one if I did), so I'd need something off-the-shelf like the example in my original post. I'll have to think on it a bit while I work on building the PV.

Thanks for the input! :)
 

Rocketman

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May 3, 2009
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Not to sound negative about someone's idea, but maybe it would help to try and visualize the flow of energy in a vaping "system".

The charge in the battery (not an infinite surce like a PT) flows into the heater and is converted into thermal energy.
From an initial state of "room temperature" the atty heater gets hot, vaporizes juice, then cools. Some of the heat generated is conducted and radiated to the atty shell, which is them conduced or radiated away. If we consider a single puff situation, the temperatures would return to room temperature before the next puff. Not many of us vape that way :)

With repetitive puffs, the heat input into the atty shell is faster than the heat loss, so the shell heats up. The faster we puff, the more heat energy is stored in the shell. With each new puff the atty heats up, vaporizes juice, loses some heat to the shell, the shell heats up more, then we start the "between puff" heat loss. Try and visualize this heat flow as you puff. You send a blob of electricity into the heater, and you got part of a blob of heat that produces vapor and part of a blob that heats the shell.

If the shell is kept cool through conduction, radiation, or convection like is necessary with a CPU chip, then each blob of electricity that goes to the cooler heater will have to heat it up to produce a blob of heat to make vapor, and a little bit bigger blob to heat up the cooler shell. Each puff will require a bigger blob of electricity to produce vapor. Even more heat will be lost to heat up the shell that is constantly being cooled. In fact, you will be sending heat out into the room, on purpose. Each puff that heats up the heater, sends heat to the shell, is radiated (efficiently) into the room, consumes more battery energy than an insulated atty shell would. All of this heat energy is produced by the overworked little heater inside the atty. Poor thing.

Heater resistance is a little lower when cool. Starting with a cool atty, low resistance=more current though the wire, and heating it up, produces mechanical stresses proportional to the change in temperature. This is similar to the resistance Vs temperature Vs life of an incandescent light bulb, except we don't get the heater hot enough to vaporize the heater material itself. If you got the heater and shell hot enough to vape by it self, stop puffing :)

I agree that overheating the atty heater wire shortens it's life and a shell that is completely insulated might raise heater temperature by reducing heat loss, but radiating more heat from the system will require the heater to work harder, less efficiently, and pump heat out into the space around it. Most things die early when they have to work harder.

The idea of a heat sink is a great way to keep electrical parts from going over a destructive upper temperature, but we are trying to heat up the atty heater wire. Until the atty heater gets up to that temperature, we don't vape.

Again, just my input, not trying to be negative about your idea, and my position may change as I think about this more :)
 

Vapomaniac

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Oct 15, 2010
108
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Long Island
Not to sound negative about someone's idea, but maybe it would help to try and visualize the flow of energy in a vaping "system".

The charge in the battery (not an infinite surce like a PT) flows into the heater and is converted into thermal energy.
From an initial state of "room temperature" the atty heater gets hot, vaporizes juice, then cools. Some of the heat generated is conducted and radiated to the atty shell, which is them conduced or radiated away. If we consider a single puff situation, the temperatures would return to room temperature before the next puff. Not many of us vape that way :)

With repetitive puffs, the heat input into the atty shell is faster than the heat loss, so the shell heats up. The faster we puff, the more heat energy is stored in the shell. With each new puff the atty heats up, vaporizes juice, loses some heat to the shell, the shell heats up more, then we start the "between puff" heat loss. Try and visualize this heat flow as you puff. You send a blob of electricity into the heater, and you got part of a blob of heat that produces vapor and part of a blob that heats the shell.

If the shell is kept cool through conduction, radiation, or convection like is necessary with a CPU chip, then each blob of electricity that goes to the cooler heater will have to heat it up to produce a blob of heat to make vapor, and a little bit bigger blob to heat up the cooler shell. Each puff will require a bigger blob of electricity to produce vapor. Even more heat will be lost to heat up the shell that is constantly being cooled. In fact, you will be sending heat out into the room, on purpose. Each puff that heats up the heater, sends heat to the shell, is radiated (efficiently) into the room, consumes more battery energy than an insulated atty shell would. All of this heat energy is produced by the overworked little heater inside the atty. Poor thing.

Heater resistance is a little lower when cool. Starting with a cool atty, low resistance=more current though the wire, and heating it up, produces mechanical stresses proportional to the change in temperature. This is similar to the resistance Vs temperature Vs life of an incandescent light bulb, except we don't get the heater hot enough to vaporize the heater material itself. If you got the heater and shell hot enough to vape by it self, stop puffing :)

I agree that overheating the atty heater wire shortens it's life and a shell that is completely insulated might raise heater temperature by reducing heat loss, but radiating more heat from the system will require the heater to work harder, less efficiently, and pump heat out into the space around it. Most things die early when they have to work harder.

The idea of a heat sink is a great way to keep electrical parts from going over a destructive upper temperature, but we are trying to heat up the atty heater wire. Until the atty heater gets up to that temperature, we don't vape.

Again, just my input, not trying to be negative about your idea, and my position may change as I think about this more :)

Hi RM,

I've considered most of that. But I still question whether cooling the shell (and ultimately, the chamber) would shorten the lifespan of the coil any more than in a constantly-overheated atty. And I'm thinking that the benefits -- fewer cleaning cycles, less burnt and/or broken-down liquids, et cetera -- might actually outweigh any negative effects on the atty coil. Like you, however, I do allow for the possibilty that I'm wrong (I'm frequently wrong -- it's part of my charm :) ).

This is actually getting interesting. I think I'm gonna hafta do an empirical analysis (as best I can at home and armed only with a VOM and my own senses) once I get the PV done and fitted with a removable heat sink.

Thanks so much for the input!
 
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Rocketman

Ultra Member
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May 3, 2009
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SouthEastern Louisiana
Glad to be of help :)

I do not think atty design has been finalized. It's obviously a delicate balance of energy flow that has many small and interdependent variables, including the human input. Since we have control of "the button" it works best when we become more in-tune with our little hand held devices. Those that can remain objective succeed. Those that can not, follow the latest "Hype".
I also agree with your concern with the liquid itself. That is probably more susceptible to degradation to accumulated heat than the heater itself.


Keep at this. There is no right or wrong with science. Facts are all made up. I make up new facts all the time :)
 

OldDude1

Full Member
Sep 7, 2010
22
0
New York
Greetings: The concomitant effects of both atomizer housing heat loss and repeated thermal induced expansion and contraction of the nichrome wire undoubtedly contribute to an overall reduction in both useful atomizer life and storage cell power. Although both these effects are of some concern to me, my primary motivation in experimenting with heat sinks is in attempting to reproduce and prolong as far as possible the taste and sensation obtained when firing up a comparatively cool atomizer. I have found that I prefer the inherent qualities of the vapor produced by a standard 510 atomizer whose temperature has stabilized closer room temperature than one that is already warm or hot. These attributes are particularly noticeable with fruit flavored liquids. Another aspect of heat dispersal also noticed is that, within limits, the greater the temperature differential between the atomizer tube's outer surface and the surrounding air, the faster and larger the amount of vapor condensate accumulates on the surface. I have been attempting to mitigate this. Any ideas? Thanks. OldDude1
 

Vapomaniac

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Oct 15, 2010
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Long Island
Hey, OD,

Are you talking about condensate on the tube's inner surface? If so, I don't know that there's any way around that, other than to line the inner diameter of the tube with some sort of absorbant material. And I think that would only make things worse with respect to cleaning (unless the liner could be removable/disposable).

If you're talking about condensate on the tube's outer surface, I haven't experienced that (that I've noticed).
 

PoliticallyIncorrect

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Jul 31, 2010
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...Try and visualize this heat flow as you puff. You send a blob of electricity into the heater, and you got part of a blob of heat that produces vapor and part of a blob that heats the shell.

If the shell is kept cool through conduction, radiation, or convection like is necessary with a CPU chip, then each blob of electricity that goes to the cooler heater will have to heat it up to produce a blob of heat to make vapor, and a little bit bigger blob to heat up the cooler shell. Each puff will require a bigger blob of electricity to produce vapor. Even more heat will be lost to heat up the shell that is constantly being cooled.

Ok, I'm going out on a dangerous limb here--you guys sound like theoretical physicists, for God's sake--so be gentle if the following is, well...stupid: the thought occurs to me that the factor of larger blobs of electricity (note my deft use of esoteric technical jargon :)) required to heat an artificially cooled length of Nichrome would be compensated to one extent or another by the reduced resistance.

Just a thought--or perhaps wishful thinking. I really want this idea to work. PI's Law: The best, smoothest, most satisfying drag off a PV is always the first after it's been sitting around for awhile and has cooled through to its marrow.
 

OldDude1

Full Member
Sep 7, 2010
22
0
New York
Outer atomizer surface. This is particularly noticeable on an Ego, Riva etc. with the cone in place. It may just be my vaping technique of preferring a cool atomizer. Once the tube gets hot, any outer surface condensation totally evaporates. Any condensate on the an atomizer's inner surface should eventually run down to the mesh material and be recycled back to the heating element thereby being vaporized again. OldDude1
 

Rocketman

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May 3, 2009
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SouthEastern Louisiana
Liked the "blobs" analogy huh? :)

Everyone has different likes and dislikes. This is more like a target, not the gun.
Can you get to your vaping target with the device you have, or do you need something different?
I say different, and not better, because you are inputting the human subjective variable. What seems 'better' for one, may not be better for another. Take the 'sweet spot' concept that is like a dog chasing it's tail. Get happy or chase tail. Or is that get happy and chase tail.

For instance, it takes 2 or 3 vapes for me to get up to speed. Once I've got my vaping system going, it's just oozing vapor :)

Opinions. Everybody has AT LEAST ONE, LOL
 

Vapomaniac

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Oct 15, 2010
108
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Long Island
Outer atomizer surface. This is particularly noticeable on an Ego, Riva etc. with the cone in place. It may just be my vaping technique of preferring a cool atomizer. Once the tube gets hot, any outer surface condensation totally evaporates. Any condensate on the an atomizer's inner surface should eventually run down to the mesh material and be recycled back to the heating element thereby being vaporized again. OldDude1

I don't know what to say about condensate on the outer surface. As I said before, I've never experienced that issue. Sorry... :facepalm:
 
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