Help! Temp control has gone crazy!

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BobC

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You're missing the whole premise of temp control and pre-heat,

In temperature control, you never want to go above the temperature limit you set, that's why it's called temp control,

What you want to have happen is from a cold start, you want to get to the desired temperature as quick as possible, hence pre-heat power up to your mod's capability.

From what you're saying, not sure you are using it correctly
 
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GeorgeS

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    You're missing the whole premise of temp control and pre-heat,

    In temperature control, you never want to go above the temperature limit you set, that's why it's called temp control,

    What you want to have happen is from a cold start, you want to get to the desired temperature as quick as possible, hence pre-heat power up to your mod's capability.

    From what you're saying, not sure you are using it correctly

    LOL:lol: That is exactly what I think of how your explaining it.

    Just about every TC mod on the planet will take a set power level and fire at that level until (or shortly before) the temperature set point is reached.

    Once the set point is reached the MOD will throttle back the power and vary the voltage applied to the coil to maintain the set temperature.

    I've sat and watched with Escribe. It makes no difference if I set the "preheat" to 40W for 30seconds or the preheat to 0 seconds (disabled) and the main power to 40W - the ramp AND the temperature regulation is the same.

    The dna mod does not care if I have a setting of 20W or 50W if it only needs 15W to maintain the temperature guess what it will use? (15W)

    Unlike DNA chips, YiHi chips PWM the set power once the temperature set point is reached which can often times (if the power is set to high) create a "pulsy" or "rattlesnaking" vape.

    DNA chips don't have this issue. Simply set a power level that heats the coil up within a reasonable amount of time (just like every other TC mod on the planet - I own many of them) and set your desired temperature.

    Again, the preheat is a useless feature on a DNA mod.
     
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    BobC

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    OK, you must be right then,
    How stupid of Evolv to create such a redundant function in the DNA200 and be dumb enough to continue the stupidity in the DNA75, DNA250 and DNA60

    Can you help them out and explain the error in their ways

    Thank you so much for the enlightenment, I didn't think Brandon and Nick knew what they were doing, now you confirmed it. :facepalm:
     

    MikeB

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    I would try closing down your air flow rather than rising the temperature set point.

    That 3 wrap 28AWG coil does not have much mass or surface area to make vapor, your likely getting more fresh air in your vapor stream than vapor. Closing down the air flow to more closely match the vapor production will increase the vapor temperature at the drip tip.

    Personally, I find the 'preheat' function on DNA mods in TC mode fairly to completely useless as the preheat is is also temperature controlled. If your build needs 40W to get up to temperature in a reasonable amount of time, just set the wattage to 40W and let the mod take care of the rest.
    Preheat is/was really designed for power/wattage mode where a user had a large mass coil which needs more watts to get up to a usable vaping temperature but would get to hot if that wattage was continued to be used - hence the two power level "preheat" and "normal".

    That's is a good point about the coil. I need to rework my coil for sure. Do you think my temp is too high though?

    Also why did it I have to change my temp so much between the VT75 and the Therion? Is the VT75 perhaps defective?

    One more question, on the atomizer analyzer it has several readings. I was quoting the big one "raw ohms", but there was a "cold ohms" beneath it that was steady. The Raw Ohms seems to always fluctuate, although not much. Am I looking at the correct reading?
     

    GeorgeS

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    That's is a good point about the coil. I need to rework my coil for sure. Do you think my temp is too high though?

    Also why did it I have to change my temp so much between the VT75 and the Therion? Is the VT75 perhaps defective?

    One more question, on the atomizer analyzer it has several readings. I was quoting the big one "raw ohms", but there was a "cold ohms" beneath it that was steady. The Raw Ohms seems to always fluctuate, although not much. Am I looking at the correct reading?

    Personally, I like a cooler vape. I run from 360-450F. If you like a warmer vape your temp is not to high. If you are not getting a warm vape you might have to much air. (hence my suggestion before)

    Sadly, if you take 5 different TC mods and move a tank between them you'll get 5 different base resistances. Even with SS430 it takes fairly little resistance difference to change the vape by 50-100F. This is one of the reasons why folks make sure of their connections: clean and tight.

    While I do have two VT75's I don't think I've ever used the atomizer analyzer. My guess is the 'cold ohms' is the base resistance (which ought not change) and 'raw' might be live or something else - I'm sure that whatever escribe documentation could speak better toward how that thing works.
     

    Spirometry

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    Raw Ohms is just that, a resistance reading with no calibrations. You don't want to see fluctuations more than .001-.002

    (Kanthal) = Raw ohms - mod resistance

    (Temp) = Raw ohms - mod resistance then the resistance is adjusted to what it would be at 70° . This is the resistance the mod will use to lock in Cold resistance.

    Cold Ohms = This is the resistance the dna is currently using for temperature calculations

    Running atomizer analyzer will slightly warm the board and mod. So it isn't to uncommon to have a Nominal Ohms(Temp) slightly higher than your locked in Cold Ohms.
     
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    MikeB

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    Did you use the same materials profile for both devices? I know you said one came preloaded (the Therion?) and the other you entered. Where did you get the one you entered from, Steam Engine?

    I honestly can't remember. :(
    I want to say I clicked on a link from inside escribe that sent me out, but I may be imagining that.

    It was the same material profile text name "SS430", but I can't say that the values were the same since one came preloaded and the other I installed.
     

    Eskie

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    Might be the profile difference that's resulting in different behavior. You can just try copying the curve over from one to the other and see how it is (as with all software changes, back up your original configurations in case you want to revert back without going through a hard reboot so it's all back to default values).
     

    MikeB

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    Cold Ohms is what you adjust/lock in the analyzer

    So more progress today...

    Coil & Wire:
    I set out to build a new coil, since I was now running 500f on my little 3 wrap coil. I took @OhTheAgony 's advice and twisted up some 28ga SS, this time using 316L (since it just came in) instead of the 430. The twisted wire allowed me to double the number of wraps to six wraps. This coil is massive and I barely fit it inside my chamber without touching anything. I checked my ohms after installing the coil, after wicking, and after assembling, and there were no major changes. I am now getting a hot vape off at 450f, instead of a cool-warm vape at 470f-500f.

    Connections:
    So I took on the stripped screw that's been giving me trouble and put it in a clamp. Then I went to work on it with a hacksaw creating a working Philip's head again. This really aided with experimenting with the coil. After installing the new six wrap twisted coil, I noticed the graphs were still looking crazy in escribe, and the vape didn't feel right. Taking the tank off the mod, I noticed the 510 center screw had worked its way loose. Taking it out, it was covered in black fouling. I cleaned that up and reinstalled it nice and tight.

    Thoughts/Questions:
    So, its working much better and temp control seems to be doing what I want it to, however there have been a lot of variables change here and I'm not sure which was the silver bullet. I changed:
    - Wire (SS430 -to-> SS316L)
    - Coil (3 wraps of 28ga -to-> 6 wraps of twisted 28ga)
    - Fixed a stripped screw head
    - Cleaned and tightened the 510 center screw.

    One thing though, the taste is "weird" for lack of a better word. It's smoother, almost waxy, if that's any kind of description. Also the air flow is much less due to the enormous coil. On the taste issue, to combat coil gunking I just switched to 100% VG juice, and then cut the juice 50/50 with pure VG to yield two bottles of half-flavor. I did that Friday/Saturday, so I doubt this is the first time I'm noticing the flavor change, but I guess it could be? Or maybe it's the change in airflow? The coil?
     

    MikeB

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    Honestly, I'm starting to feel discouraged. I feel like I'm learning to vape all over again. This has all be a very "fiddly" process. I'm getting a good vape again now, but there was a time last week when I was getting a good vape on the VT75 with a 3 wrap coil too. I just don't feel confident in my ability to get a consistent vape with this stuff yet. It seems everytime I touch it, even if I do everything the same way, I get different results. I thought I would get set up, decided I like 470f (or whatever), and TC would keep me there, but I've been getting hot vapes at 440f all the way up to cool vapes at 500f. It's very confusing.

    I suppose the most logical reason for this is my connections?

    TC works by sensing the change in resistance, right? Fouling on the connections, or loose connections, will introduce small changes in resistance that TC will misinterpret as changes in coil temp, correct? If so, then maybe I've had bad connections that made DNA think I'm at 440f when the coil is really 480f? Or conversely, think I'm at 500f when I'm really at 450f?

    Would another material make TC more forgiving? I understand there is a TCR or TFR or something for each material, and stainless has a poor rating. Is stainless steel just too narrow a range and therefore too sensitive to changes in the connections? Would titanium or nickle work more consistently?
     

    Eskie

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    Honestly, I'm starting to feel discouraged. I feel like I'm learning to vape all over again. This has all be a very "fiddly" process. I'm getting a good vape again now, but there was a time last week when I was getting a good vape on the VT75 with a 3 wrap coil too. I just don't feel confident in my ability to get a consistent vape with this stuff yet. It seems everytime I touch it, even if I do everything the same way, I get different results. I thought I would get set up, decided I like 470f (or whatever), and TC would keep me there, but I've been getting hot vapes at 440f all the way up to cool vapes at 500f. It's very confusing.

    I'll see if I can be at all helpful


    I suppose the most logical reason for this is my connections?

    TC works by sensing the change in resistance, right? Fouling on the connections, or loose connections, will introduce small changes in resistance that TC will misinterpret as changes in coil temp, correct? If so, then maybe I've had bad connections that made DNA think I'm at 440f when the coil is really 480f? Or conversely, think I'm at 500f when I'm really at 450f?

    It's all about the resistance, and only the resistance. As temp goes up, resistance goes up. The mod does not measure temperature. The purpose of "setting a temp" or building those materials curves is simply to provide a way of translating a resistance number into something familiar, temperature. If your connection is bad, the mod may read that incorrect resistance and assume it's "at the right temp". The truth is, the actual temperature of the coil doesn't matter, only the set point you've chosen such that the wire is 'hot enough" to vaporize your juice the way you like it. Comparing temps between say different tanks, even on the same mod, is meaningless as 450F on tank A will not necessarily perform the same way as 450F on tank B. Each tank, each coil build, will have it's own sweet spot.

    The advantage to TC isn't so much achieving a given temperature, but maintaining that temperature throughout the vape. In power mode, the longer you hold the fire button, the hotter the vape will get. Eventually getting too hot to vape, or even begin to 'burn" the juice. With TC, once at temp, for as long as you hold the fire button, the temp should remain the same, giving you a smoother vape.

    Would another material make TC more forgiving? I understand there is a TCR or TFR or something for each material, and stainless has a poor rating. Is stainless steel just too narrow a range and therefore too sensitive to changes in the connections? Would titanium or nickle work more consistently?

    The higher the TCR, the greater the change in resistance to temperature. So it's theoretically easier to tell the difference between two points with a wire of higher TCR. SS430 has a higher TCR than 316L, however, a DNA board is capable of handling 316L well, assuming the resting, cold resistance is stable (see connections). In addition, the small changes in resistance are easier to "read" the higher your cold resistance starts at(within limits, most mods won't do TC on a high ohm coil). Low resistance builds, like the 0.25 ohm dual coil cross stapled traintrack Clapton coils will be tougher than a 0.5 ohm build. In truth, when using TC, the resistance is immaterial to performance assuming you've built within the range TC works at.

    My typical build would be 0.5-0.7 ohm on 316L. Reads well, performs well, for me. Going back to your situation, you went from a 3 wrap 28G coil, to a 6 wrap 28G twisted coil. Essentially, 4 times the mass that needs to be heated to your preference over your first build. Comparing their performance under TC is difficult because they're going to need significantly different amounts of current to achieve the same "temperature". And you changed materials from 430 to 316L.

    So you've played with multiple variables through this and found inconsistencies, which I'd be amazed if you didn't. Best way to try and get some consistency is settle on one wire type and build. Be sure your connections are solid. Vape a juice you know well. Then start changing your settings and see where you get a solid vape. When you have that, you have a basis to make a single change, and draw an accurate conclusion about what's working, and what's not, to suit your particular preference in a vape.
     

    MikeB

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    Just some more thoughts...

    Does total coil mass make a difference in TC? It seems like the more of a certain material there is to measure, the more accurate it could be. I'm thinking here about my 3 wrap coil vs my twisted 6 wrap coil. The ohms are relatively the same, but there's a lot more mass, 4x as much.

    I notice I get a hotter vape with fresh batteries. Why? I start vaping at 450f with half spent batteries, but when I put in new batteries, I have to lower it to 440f or 430f. If I check the device monitor and vape, I says I'm hitting the same wattage both ways. What's the deal?
     

    MikeB

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    I'll see if I can be at all helpful




    It's all about the resistance, and only the resistance. As temp goes up, resistance goes up. The mod does not measure temperature. The purpose of "setting a temp" or building those materials curves is simply to provide a way of translating a resistance number into something familiar, temperature. If your connection is bad, the mod may read that incorrect resistance and assume it's "at the right temp". The truth is, the actual temperature of the coil doesn't matter, only the set point you've chosen such that the wire is 'hot enough" to vaporize your juice the way you like it. Comparing temps between say different tanks, even on the same mod, is meaningless as 450F on tank A will not necessarily perform the same way as 450F on tank B. Each tank, each coil build, will have it's own sweet spot.

    The advantage to TC isn't so much achieving a given temperature, but maintaining that temperature throughout the vape. In power mode, the longer you hold the fire button, the hotter the vape will get. Eventually getting too hot to vape, or even begin to 'burn" the juice. With TC, once at temp, for as long as you hold the fire button, the temp should remain the same, giving you a smoother vape.



    The higher the TCR, the greater the change in resistance to temperature. So it's theoretically easier to tell the difference between two points with a wire of higher TCR. SS430 has a higher TCR than 316L, however, a DNA board is capable of handling 316L well, assuming the resting, cold resistance is stable (see connections). In addition, the small changes in resistance are easier to "read" the higher your cold resistance starts at(within limits, most mods won't do TC on a high ohm coil). Low resistance builds, like the 0.25 ohm dual coil cross stapled traintrack Clapton coils will be tougher than a 0.5 ohm build. In truth, when using TC, the resistance is immaterial to performance assuming you've built within the range TC works at.

    My typical build would be 0.5-0.7 ohm on 316L. Reads well, performs well, for me. Going back to your situation, you went from a 3 wrap 28G coil, to a 6 wrap 28G twisted coil. Essentially, 4 times the mass that needs to be heated to your preference over your first build. Comparing their performance under TC is difficult because they're going to need significantly different amounts of current to achieve the same "temperature". And you changed materials from 430 to 316L.

    So you've played with multiple variables through this and found inconsistencies, which I'd be amazed if you didn't. Best way to try and get some consistency is settle on one wire type and build. Be sure your connections are solid. Vape a juice you know well. Then start changing your settings and see where you get a solid vape. When you have that, you have a basis to make a single change, and draw an accurate conclusion about what's working, and what's not, to suit your particular preference in a vape.

    You're always helpful, Eskie. Never doubt it!

    This all makes a lot of sense, actually. I'm going to need to digest it a while, but it makes sense. A lot of really good points.

    You're right, a lot of changes here. I'm going to try to stabilize my build and see how things go this week and go from there.
     

    louiesquared

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    Have you been vaping the same juice on all of the different coils that you have tried. Not only will 450F feel different from 1 tank to another but also for different juices. Some of my custard vapes love 480-500 but that is way too hot for certain fruit vapes.

    I think the connection issues will be the main issue that you have. Get those all figured out so thet you have a consistant and reliable connection every time and you should see good results.

    Also, I have found that it is better to not worry so much about what the temperature is set to on any given tank or device. Find what tasted good for the setup you are using. If it is consistantly good at that time stick with it until you change your setup. If it is still not consistant you may want to look in to a different tank.
     

    OhTheAgony

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    Just a quickie for now since it's way past my bedtime; but the waxy flavor you describe could be contributed to the high VG levels. I vape max VG myself (around 83%, 8 to 9% distilled water & the rest is flavoring) & notice this too sometime. It does depend on the brand of VG how strong it is ime, I have found one brand that appears completely tasteless but it is pretty expensive over here, over twice as much as my white label stuff. I think I'll still order some more of it though, I really liked the clean taste of it. I'll check the bottle for the brand tomorrow.

    ...then, your inconsistent results....I kinda suspect your RTA is at fault here. Although I know nothing about the tank you're using and how well it works for TC so maybe others that have it too can chime in here or you can do a quick search on google.

    I believe you have something else on the way though..? Perhaps that can proof me wrong or right..

    Have you checked that screw on your battery door by the way? It should be nice and snug but not overly tightened.

    Hang in there grasshopper ;)
     
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    MikeB

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    Have you been vaping the same juice on all of the different coils that you have tried. Not only will 450F feel different from 1 tank to another but also for different juices. Some of my custard vapes love 480-500 but that is way too hot for certain fruit vapes.

    I think the connection issues will be the main issue that you have. Get those all figured out so thet you have a consistant and reliable connection every time and you should see good results.

    Also, I have found that it is better to not worry so much about what the temperature is set to on any given tank or device. Find what tasted good for the setup you are using. If it is consistantly good at that time stick with it until you change your setup. If it is still not consistant you may want to look in to a different tank.

    Yes, same juice between all tanks, devices, and coil builds.

    I think you are right about the connections. This old tank mine needs a deep clean. I've always just used q-tips and maybe alcohol. Do any of you use sonic cleaning or such? (I'll admit, I rarely clean, and it can really build up)

    You're tight about the temp. I should worry so much about it. If it needs to go up or down, maybe that's just how it is. Back on old variable voltage though, I used to just set it and forget. I'm not used to messing with the settings so much.
     
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    MikeB

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    Just a quickie for now since it's way past my bedtime; but the waxy flavor you describe could be contributed to the high VG levels. I vape max VG myself (around 83%, 8 to 9% distilled water & the rest is flavoring) & notice this too sometime. It does depend on the brand of VG how strong it is ime, I have found one brand that appears completely tasteless but it is pretty expensive over here, over twice as much as my white label stuff. I think I'll still order some more of it though, I really liked the clean taste of it. I'll check the bottle for the brand tomorrow.

    ...then, your inconsistent results....I kinda suspect your RTA is at fault here. Although I know nothing about the tank you're using and how well it works for TC so maybe others that have it too can chime in here or you can do a quick search on google.

    I believe you have something else on the way though..? Perhaps that can proof me wrong or right..

    Have you checked that screw on your battery door by the way? It should be nice and snug but not overly tightened.

    Hang in there grasshopper ;)

    Friday, I tried cutting my juice 50/50 with VG, but I barely noticed any change in flavor until today, with the 6 wrap twisted coil. It's making a lot more vapor though, enough that my wife complained I had fogged up the kitchen (I hadn't realized), so maybe with the increased vapor I can better taste the difference.

    My tank was a Taifun GT II, but I just got a Kayfun 5 in tonight (it's been like a vaping Christmas these past few days, lol), and it's vaping wonderfully. I've changed no settings, and I'm still using the 6 wrap twisted coil build. Same juice. Ito too early to say, but I'm suspecting my RTA may be at fault. It needs a deep clean I think.
     
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