FDA Help us, US Congress, you're our only hope

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Nate760

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Now that I've secured a win in the Most Depressing Header category at this year's ECF Awards....

The only way this regulatory drama isn't going to produce disastrous results is through a legislative remedy. The whole reason this is such an absurd exercise is because, with the existing laws as currently written, there is no legal/statutory middle ground between "medical nicotine device" and "tobacco product." Trying to shoehorn e-cigs into either of those categories, as we already know, will inevitably result in an avalanche of bad policy that's not going to benefit anyone (unless you're a tobacco company executive, in which case you can feel free to disregard), and which will almost certainly persist for many decades, which misguided public health policy nearly always does.

When you get right down to it, this isn't really the FDA's fault. They can only operate within the legal framework they're given, so even if they wanted to, they can't just unilaterally carve out a new product class and place e-cigs in it. They're calling these things tobacco products not necessarily out of incompetence or malice, but because it's the only option available to them.

What does this mean? It means the Congress needs to do its job, and give the agency a better set of options when the current set proves incompatible with effective, common sense-based (or, better yet, science-based) regulatory policy. Laws, especially ones that deal with public health, are supposed to evolve with and adapt to changing circumstances and unforeseen developments. The current regulatory playbook probably made sense in 1998. It didn't make sense in 2009, and it makes even less sense in 2014. It is, more so every day, a fatal impediment to the implementation of good policy that might eventually contribute to the saving of millions of lives.

It's too bad it's September of a midterm election year, because nobody in the House or Senate is going to want any part of any remotely controversial subject until early 2015. But still, that's no reason why we as voters shouldn't be telling them they need to act on this, because they do, because they're the only ones who can. Even many ANTZ would probably agree that the current regulatory framework is increasingly inadequate for dealing with the matters that currently must be dealt with. By the time the next Congress is seated, we have to do everything we can, both individually and collectively, to get this on their radar.
 

Painter_

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There is another way to look at this. The FDA does not have to do anything. As you state e-cigs are not tobacco products and they are not a medical nicotine product. Since they do not fit ether of the classes the the FDA has authority over the Congress has nothing to do. Instead the courts said that they cannot call them medical devices and the political body has applied pressure to the FDA to Deem e-cigs as tobacco (even though they are not.). As soon as they are "deemed" tobacco the taxes can be easily be applied. Sin taxes mostly go unnoticed by the general populous they only are noticed by the effected group.
 

Nate760

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There is another way to look at this. The FDA does not have to do anything. As you state e-cigs are not tobacco products and they are not a medical nicotine product. Since they do not fit ether of the classes the the FDA has authority over the Congress has nothing to do. Instead the courts said that they cannot call them medical devices and the political body has applied pressure to the FDA to Deem e-cigs as tobacco (even though they are not.). As soon as they are "deemed" tobacco the taxes can be easily be applied. Sin taxes mostly go unnoticed by the general populous they only are noticed by the effected group.

You're right, of course, that there's no practical reason why there needs to be any federal oversight at all, and even less so when that oversight (as currently proposed) is more stringent in some respects than it is for actual cigarettes.

Unfortunately, we live in an age where federal regulation is undertaken proactively and preemptively, based solely on the prospect that some hypothetical bad thing might happen without it.
 

pamdis

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What we need congress to do is something like this:

Bill Text - 113th Congress (2013-2014) - THOMAS (Library of Congress)

which completely forbids FDA from regulating regular cigars.

Notice the title - Traditional Cigar Manufacturing and Small Business Jobs Preservation Act

Which could otherwise be known as - FDA, Keep Your Hands Off Our Cigars, Congress
 

Nate760

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What we need congress to do is something like this:

Bill Text - 113th Congress (2013-2014) - THOMAS (Library of Congress)

which completely forbids FDA from regulating regular cigars.

Notice the title - Traditional Cigar Manufacturing and Small Business Jobs Preservation Act

Which could otherwise be known as - FDA, Keep Your Hands Off Our Cigars, Congress

Even if its true intention is protect some rich dudes from having to pay more for their cigars, any bill that makes a dent in the "all forms of tobacco use are exactly the same as cigarette smoking" orthodoxy is a step in the right direction.
 

pamdis

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Even if its true intention is protect some rich dudes from having to pay more for their cigars, any bill that makes a dent in the "all forms of tobacco use are exactly the same as cigarette smoking" orthodoxy is a step in the right direction.

Unfortunately, this bill doesn't say anything like that. It doesn't argue with FDA that it is wrong, or that they have made bad conclusions about cigars, it simply forbids FDA from regulating them, with no reason given other than the title - to save jobs.

At this point, we just need a law that says, NO!
 

Nate760

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Unfortunately, this bill doesn't say anything like that. It doesn't argue with FDA that it is wrong, or that they have made bad conclusions about cigars, it simply forbids FDA from regulating them, with no reason given other than the title - to save jobs.

At this point, we just need a law that says, NO!

It wouldn't be the first time Congress has gotten away with the "it's a good law because we damn well said it's a good law" gambit.
 

wingscup

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To ALL Michigan vapers: This is critical!!

According to an article from the Gongwer Michigan news service (Gongwer News Service - Michigan), SB 1018's sponsor, Senate Majority Leader Randy Richardville, is trying to fast track the bill. If he doesn't have the votes to move it out of the Senate Finance Committee (and it looks that way, partially thanks to Michigan vapers - aka you!), he wants to move it to a committee that he is the chairman of, the Senate Committee on Government Operations. He wants to move this out of his committee fast, possibly by the end of the month. And worse, he wants to tax vapor products (possibly including devices, possibly just products containing nicotine) at 32% of wholesale price instead of 15 cents per ml. 32% is the same tax applied to cigars, non-cigarette smoking tobacco and smokeless tobacco.
What needs to happen immediately:
It appears that Senator Richardville is going to be meeting with Governor Snyder at some point this week. Governor Snyder has signaled that he wants to tax e-cigarettes. However, he is a Republican involved in a very closely contested reelection. We need 1,000+ phone calls delivered to Gov. Snyder's office saying that his decision whether or not to endorse vapor taxes will be a deciding factor when they vote in November. He also needs to hear from the vapor industry is NOT Big Tobacco. His office numbers are 517.373.3400 or 517.335.7858.
 
Holy Moly, you just gave us the answer. We need to paint all ecig gear various shades of brown give it that good old Cigar scented infusion of only cigar extracted Tobacco. Since most Mech mods and ego style batteries are already round we should be able to call them Stogies instead of Vapes. All eliquids could use Prince in the title such as Prince tutti frutti, Prince Grannies Danish, or maybe use Cavandish ie Gummy Cavandish, or Butterscotch Cavandish etc. We could state that our gear and juices are kept in climate controled Humidors and that we are Cona-sewers of fine vintage steeped Tobacco extractions. We could call our get togethers Stogie cons and by doing this we just might convince the twits in the FDA we are rich and privilged therefore out of their regulatory perview. I'm willing to try anything no matter how silly to get them off our backs. Who's with me? :D
 

Nate760

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Holy Moly, you just gave us the answer. We need to paint all ecig gear various shades of brown give it that good old Cigar scented infusion of only cigar extracted Tobacco. Since most Mech mods and ego style batteries are already round we should be able to call them Stogies instead of Vapes. All eliquids could use Prince in the title such as Prince tutti frutti, Prince Grannies Danish, or maybe use Cavandish ie Gummy Cavandish, or Butterscotch Cavandish etc. We could state that our gear and juices are kept in climate controled Humidors and that we are Cona-sewers of fine vintage steeped Tobacco extractions. We could call our get togethers Stogie cons and by doing this we just might convince the twits in the FDA we are rich and privilged therefore out of their regulatory perview. I'm willing to try anything no matter how silly to get them off our backs. Who's with me? :D

I think I'll go the more earthy route, and wrap my tank/battery in actual tobacco leaves. I'll call it a CID, for "cigar imitation device." I may even trademark the "El CID" brand name.
 

XJ-linux

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They can do whatever they like via interpretation of an enforcement mandate. See: ATF rulings on the legality of things like shoelaces in proximity of guns, the distinction between a flash suppressor -vs- muzzle brake or constructive possession of SBR unassembled components. Then look and see how they change from legal to illegal over the years with no one's input but their own internal rulings. Heck, there's always de faco bans via onerous and burdensome application or regulatory process. Most can be done without any additional input from Congress. Judges can sometimes grant injunctions to regulations, but you don't hear about that happening too often when it comes loosening a regulation, and never when it comes to "the safety of our children" in relation to a demonized object or for a pass time people deem as trite, possibly unsafe and not a basic necessity of life.
 

XJ-linux

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FDA would've solved this problem by declaring shoelaces to be firearms.

The ATF declared 14" shoelaces with loops on each end as machine gun components in 2004 and deemed Chore Boy and fiber glass insulation to be a constructive component of a "silencer" in 2011. These are the same guys who ruled you can't even repair your own legally licensed devices but must instead send them to someone on the ATF's list for repair. Nice! Say, what does the "T" in ATF stand for? ;) These guys will be great fun to play word games with when they raid you for "stockpiling" hundreds of milliliters of that extra toxic 100mg nicotine liquid. Are you a terrorist?
 

Nate760

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The ATF declared 14" shoelaces with loops on each end as machine gun components in 2004 and deemed Chore Boy and fiber glass insulation to be a constructive component of a "silencer" in 2011. These are the same guys who ruled you can't even repair your own legally licensed devices but must instead send them to someone on the ATF's list for repair. Nice! Say, what does the "T" in ATF stand for? ;) These guys will be great fun to play word games with when they raid you for "stockpiling" hundreds of milliliters of that extra toxic 100mg nicotine liquid. Are you a terrorist?

If some jack-booted thug ever asks me why I had that stockpile of illicit nicotine base in my freezer, I'm going to answer "Because I'm an America-hating terrorist."
 

Nate760

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If it gets to that point, Cuba would be a 'vacation' :)

This guy wanted me to tell you he doesn't think that joke is funny.

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