How Much Nicotine Are You Drinking? Safe Amount?

[ElProximo]

Drink might not be the right word here. Ingesting?

Despite some experience I still find myself inhaling a drop or two from a recently filled cartridge. Some juices seem to drain through the holes more easily than others. Occasionally I get a drop in the mouth.

Other times I'm getting a sort of 'droplet' forming and won't notice until my tongue blots it up.

Rarely but occasionally I even get a minor spill down the side of a cartridge and get a nice little 'lip glossing' of nicotine juice.

I might try and 'blah' the drips and drops on a shirt sleeve or nearby cloth but I was trying to decide how much (over the course of a day) I might be ultimately swallowing?
Maybe a half-filled teaspoon?
Then I was making rough guesstimates on the nicotine content of my 16mg juice.

Anyways, is there a chemistry/mixing wizard in here who might be able to give a sort of idea of how much is considered dangerous? Over what time period?

Is it worse if this is on the tongue and 'sublingually' being absorbed into the blood or worse swallowing the 'nicotine spit' or I wonder?

 

[leannebug]

Well hello again.

Hmm.

Well personally, I think I injest a larger than normal amount than I did at first. I drip and use mega cartos. Both tend to "deposit" or "leak" much more juice than the regular atty/cart combos I used. (sometimes i lick the leaky juice too! )
Not sure exactly, but I have yet to 'see' any effects from it.

Hth!


Sent from my pod

 

[ElProximo]

I think I 'drank' more when I was first starting out dripping in my own e-juice but just last night I sucked what must have been a full cartridge of juice into my mouth. I did feel sick and almost like I wanted to vomit. Which is remarkable since I'm the type who my vomit once a decade.
I'm nearly convinced that is more to do with PG or the 'crisp' in it and not so much the nicotine itself.

One thing I wondered is what is the 'accumulation' issue with nicotine. If one does 'swallow' some nicotine juice does it work out of the system quickly?
Does it stay in the body until the next day when one might swallow a bit more etc etc?

 

[Zal42]

Maybe a half-filled teaspoon?

Nowhere near a half a teaspoon, unless you have a serious leakage problem with your equipment and make no effort to remove it from your mouth.

Let's see, my 510 carts can hold (ignoring the juice that won't come out unless you squeeze it from the filler) about 1/4 ml of juice. That's 0.051 teaspoons (there's 4.93 ml in a full teaspoon). It would take 9.86 carts to get to half a teaspoon, if you were to ingest all the freely available liquid.

I'd be really surprised if you were to ingest even 1/10th of that. However, let's see how much it would take to kill you...

The LD50 (the dose which, if given to a population, will kill half of it) of nicotine for humans is .5 to 1mg per kg the human weighs. For a 130 (60kg) pound person, this is 30-60mg. Assuming that you weigh 130 pounds, that your juice is 16mg/ml as you cite, and that you get 100% nicotine absorption if you drink the juice (you really get far lower than that, though), then you'd have to drink 960ml, or a tad over a quart, to get a 50% chance of death. You would, of course, become very ill long before you finished that quart so there'd be plenty of warning that something was wrong.

I could find no studies that indicate lethality or disability connected with prolonged ingestion of high, but nonlethal, dosages. Doesn't mean there aren't any, of course.

In any case, the miniscule (at least compared to the LD50) dosage you're getting orally doesn't warrant any cause of worry as near as I can tell, and is very likely to be far less than you're getting by inhaling the vapor.

 

[ElProximo]

Nowhere near a half a teaspoon, unless you have a serious leakage problem with your equipment and make no effort to remove it from your mouth.

Let's see, my 510 carts can hold (ignoring the juice that won't come out unless you squeeze it from the filler) about 1/4 ml of juice. That's 0.051 teaspoons (there's 4.93 ml in a full teaspoon). It would take 9.86 carts to get to half a teaspoon, if you were to ingest all the freely available liquid.

I'd be really surprised if you were to ingest even 1/10th of that. However, let's see how much it would take to kill you...

The LD50 (the dose which, if given to a population, will kill half of it) of nicotine for humans is .5 to 1mg per kg the human weighs. For a 130 (60kg) pound person, this is 30-60mg. Assuming that you weigh 130 pounds, that your juice is 16mg/ml as you cite, and that you get 100% nicotine absorption if you drink the juice (you really get far lower than that, though), then you'd have to drink 960ml, or a tad over a quart, to get a 50% chance of death. You would, of course, become very ill long before you finished that quart so there'd be plenty of warning that something was wrong.

I could find no studies that indicate lethality or disability connected with prolonged ingestion of high, but nonlethal, dosages. Doesn't mean there aren't any, of course.

In any case, the miniscule (at least compared to the LD50) dosage you're getting orally doesn't warrant any cause of worry as near as I can tell, and is very likely to be far less than you're getting by inhaling the vapor.

Quality research and thanks for posting that. One of my concerns was 'ingesting' (or even absorbing through mouth) as opposed to vapor. I really have sucked in what was nearly an entire cartridge of nicotine juice but even with the droplets it seems 'too little too late' by the time you try and wipe it off the tongue.

Of course, I would not want to die but in some ways I'm almost more concerned about low-grade illness and especially if there was some kind of 'accumulation' in the body.
From anything I can read on smoking - the whole 'problem' actually seems to be that nicotine 'burns off' or disappears rather quickly. Hence the desire to keep smoking,
but,
That was just talking about smoking style nicotine and I never found much with liquid nicotine and swallowing.

Yeah, interesting stuff. Thanks for checking that all out. It was something I get especially concerned about with the high-nic juices and even more when, at 3am, groggy, I somehow manage to slurp up a nice fat drop of juice through the cartridge and wonder what numbers a guy needs to start doing damage.

I never thought of the amount a person must 'ingest' from the vapor itself but that is a very good point and something to keep in mind too!

Thanks again!

 

[CountVapula]

before i started vaping, when i was in the research and figure out what to buy stage, i remember seeing a video for the totally wicked 510 (it was on their website) that said if you get any juice on your skin go wash it off right away. this had me scared for a while and when i started vaping i was worried about juice getting on my hands, in my mouth, etc. i realized after a while its nothing to worry about, it happens.

 

[evilfrog]

Nowhere near a half a teaspoon, unless you have a serious leakage problem with your equipment and make no effort to remove it from your mouth.

Let's see, my 510 carts can hold (ignoring the juice that won't come out unless you squeeze it from the filler) about 1/4 ml of juice. That's 0.051 teaspoons (there's 4.93 ml in a full teaspoon). It would take 9.86 carts to get to half a teaspoon, if you were to ingest all the freely available liquid.

I'd be really surprised if you were to ingest even 1/10th of that. However, let's see how much it would take to kill you...

The LD50 (the dose which, if given to a population, will kill half of it) of nicotine for humans is .5 to 1mg per kg the human weighs. For a 130 (60kg) pound person, this is 30-60mg. Assuming that you weigh 130 pounds, that your juice is 16mg/ml as you cite, and that you get 100% nicotine absorption if you drink the juice (you really get far lower than that, though), then you'd have to drink 960ml, or a tad over a quart, to get a 50% chance of death. You would, of course, become very ill long before you finished that quart so there'd be plenty of warning that something was wrong.

I could find no studies that indicate lethality or disability connected with prolonged ingestion of high, but nonlethal, dosages. Doesn't mean there aren't any, of course.

In any case, the miniscule (at least compared to the LD50) dosage you're getting orally doesn't warrant any cause of worry as near as I can tell, and is very likely to be far less than you're getting by inhaling the vapor.

Your math seems faulty. if 30-60 mgs is the LD50 then 2+ mls of 16mg/ml will be the LD50. Two times 16 is 32. That's still a lot of juice to be licking. When you figure a 3 ml cart takes about 100 drops, you can figure its deadly at about 60 drops for a 130lb person. I'm not sure how our tolerance for nicotine affects this.

According to your LD50 it would not take very many drops to kill a pet or child. BEWARE!

And check your math!

 

[ElProximo]

Your math seems faulty. if 30-60 mgs is the LD50 then 2+ mls of 16mg/ml will be the LD50. Two times 16 is 32. That's still a lot of juice to be licking. When you figure a 3 ml cart takes about 100 drops, you can figure its deadly at about 60 drops for a 130lb person. I'm not sure how our tolerance for nicotine affects this.

According to your LD50 it would not take very many drops to kill a pet or child. BEWARE!

And check your math!

Math is not my strongest skill so I am thankful when anything is simplified heh. I was actually a bit concerned when I had a 36 nicotine.
(or is 3.6 ml correct) but basically when I have a high nicotine juice here and of course its just a droplet here or a little 'spray' there. Once in a while I get a leaky cart and taking a quick drag I get a nice little mouthful.

In my case about 180lbs and I also wondered if some of it depends on tolerance. Accumulation makes me wonder.

You make a good point here - everyone be careful especially if you have pets or children who (lets face it) may accidentally ingest it.
Keep in mind teenagers who might 'dare' each other to take a drink or 'prank' another. I'd even mention a warning about responsible adults mixing up juices. Perhaps your e-juice resembles something else in your home you might ingest? Some kind of cooking products or drink additive?
Be careful to properly label and store.

But yeah.. hmm.. well I never made a serious measuring sort of study but I could see (totally all day) a good 4 or 6 drops altogether?

 

[evilfrog]

If you look at DIY sites they tell you to wear gloves and use extreme caution. I have heard you can get 100mg/ml nicotine if you DIY. Spilling a bottle of that on yourself will kill you... I guess 10 drops would kill a 130lb person. One or two to kill a pet or infant. And you can absorb it through your skin.

What we get from fumbling around with carts and whatnot is not so serious, and you get the effects of a mild OD long before it's dangerous.

 

[Zal42]

Your math seems faulty. if 30-60 mgs is the LD50 then 2+ mls of 16mg/ml will be the LD50. Two times 16 is 32.

Wow, could I have been any more wrong?? Thanks for the reality check!

 

[ElProximo]

Wow, could I have been any more wrong?? Thanks for the reality check!

Okay wait a minute.. so what would this mean for an average person in terms of drops 'drunk' of an e-juice? Of course e-Juice is not pure nicotine.

 

[Zal42]

It's easier to talk in ml, because drops are so variable. for 16 mg/ml juice, if you weight 130 lbs, you'd be in the LD50 zone with 2 ml. My 510 carts hold about 1/4 ml, for reference, so that would be about 8 carts worth.

My math wrt the carts and what adds up to 1/2 tsp was correct. I went off the rails when coming up with that quart nonsense.

Btw, I wouldn't worry even a little about any kind of cumulative effect. There's no evidence that this happens (at least not so far) despite people vaping for years, and some evidence to show that it doesn't happen that way.

 

[ElProximo]

It's easier to talk in ml, because drops are so variable. for 16 mg/ml juice, if you weight 130 lbs, you'd be in the LD50 zone with 2 ml. My 510 carts hold about 1/4 ml, for reference, so that would be about 8 carts worth.

My math wrt the carts and what adds up to 1/2 tsp was correct. I went off the rails when coming up with that quart nonsense.

Btw, I wouldn't worry even a little about any kind of cumulative effect. There's no evidence that this happens (at least not so far) despite people vaping for years, and some evidence to show that it doesn't happen that way.

I'm a 'visual type' so I didn't even think there was actual measurements for 'drop' and 'teaspoon' but I just described what (to the visual mind) was about 6 drops goes 'half-way' up my teaspoon... but of course that spoon is wider on top. So yeah, drops also a 'loose term' in my mind.

Right, so realistically I'm thinking we (Vapers) definitely want to watch it especially with high nicotine juice. I have a '36' and yes I have accidentally inhaled a nice little half-a-cart of juice one night. I did feel a little sick though I wasn't sure if that was just standard stomach response to any bitter sort of juice or possibly a little nicotine 'overdose'.

Yeah, I had read that nicotine doesn't like to accumulate and is worked out of the body quickly but this was regarding cigarette smoke.
I never noticed feeling ill (from juice ingesting) lasting much longer than 1 or 2 hours. I would guess out loud nicotine from vaping dissipates soon enough or else we wouldn't find ourselves craving it an hour later.

Thanks to the math geeks for contributing here. I get lost in calculations even if I think I know the numbers hehe

 

[Zal42]

Right, so realistically I'm thinking we (Vapers) definitely want to watch it especially with high nicotine juice. I have a '36' and yes I have accidentally inhaled a nice little half-a-cart of juice one night. I did feel a little sick though I wasn't sure if that was just standard stomach response to any bitter sort of juice or possibly a little nicotine 'overdose'.

This is absolutely right. My very first shipment of juice had leaked inside the baggie it was sent in, and I got quite a lot of juice all over my hands. This did make me pretty sick (I spent the next few hours laying down).

Now, I DIY my own juices, and use a 100mg/ml base. I wouldn't even think of taking the cap off the bottle without wearing gloves, and work in a tray so any spills are contained. I wear glasses, so I feel OK not wearing safety goggles, but if I wasn't nearsighted I would wear the goggles. It wouldn't take much base to hospitalize me, and better safe than sorry. All it takes is one accident.

36mg juice isn't nearly so dangerous, and I feel completely comfortable handling that without gloves. It's stronger that I'd vape, and if I got it on my skin or lips, I'd remove it as best I could, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

Your feeling a little sick may very well have been a nic overdose. The good thing about nic overdoses is that you'll feel sick, dizzy, headachy and all that well before you'll need to go to the hospital unless you really do drink the stuff. (I remember the first time I used chewing tobacco...) A little bit on the lips won't do it. A full cart may very well.

 

[leannebug]

It's easier to talk in ml, because drops are so variable. for 16 mg/ml juice, if you weight 130 lbs, you'd be in the LD50 zone with 2 ml. My 510 carts hold about 1/4 ml, for reference, so that would be about 8 carts worth.

My math wrt the carts and what adds up to 1/2 tsp was correct. I went off the rails when coming up with that quart nonsense.

Btw, I wouldn't worry even a little about any kind of cumulative effect. There's no evidence that this happens (at least not so far) despite people vaping for years, and some evidence to show that it doesn't happen that way.

Are you certain? (and also for a few drops of 100mg being lethal?). This just doesn't seem right. Now I know how dangerous it can be and I know all the safety precautions one should take. I diy all my juices so I work with 50mg and 100mg all the time. I also vape in the 18-20 range and I weigh about 125. My issue is this; seeing how we vape this stuff already.. There is nic in our system. So wouldn't that put the number lower? Also, are you sure you aren't referring to pure strength (some people call it 100mg, when it's actually MUCH higher). Have you mixed up the two? I am fanatical about washing my hands. Even so I constantly get nic on me and in my mouth. Am I toeing the line???


Sent from my pod

 

[ElProximo]

My issue is this; seeing how we vape this stuff already.. There is nic in our system. So wouldn't that put the number lower?

I never really thought of that but as someone mentioned we already absorb x-amount in lungs but I would have to guess swallow (or absorb through mouth) an X-amount from the vapor 'residue' as it goes down.

DIY with those bottles of pure nicotine actually scare the hell out of me. Even with gloves and precautions I always consider I will blop some on the counter and (eventually) put an elbow down, walk away not noticing it absorbing away into skin. Something like that.

But yeah, I'm just thinking I have this 30ml bottle and it says '2.4' on it. So am I to understand that 2.4 of the 30ml are 'pure nicotine'?

*For some reason I start off fine until I start doing numbers and somehow become MORE confused lol

 

[Zal42]

Are you certain? (and also for a few drops of 100mg being lethal?). This just doesn't seem right.

No, I never said that a few drops of 100mg base was lethal.

My calculations here are assuming a 100% absorption rate, intentionally worst case. Actual absorption is nowhere near 100%.

There is nic in our system. So wouldn't that put the number lower?

Not by much, I'd think. nicotine leaves the system pretty quickly.

Also, are you sure you aren't referring to pure strength (some people call it 100mg, when it's actually MUCH higher). Have you mixed up the two?

Actually 100% nic is a little more than 990mg/ml. I certainly haven't mixed them up.

I am fanatical about washing my hands. Even so I constantly get nic on me and in my mouth. Am I toeing the line???

No, the amount you accidentally get in your mouth and and on your hands is tiny, and the amount you absorb even smaller. Far less than it seems. I think we're all very safe, unless we drink it or wash our hands in it.

 

[Rimau]

Great thread. I would like to add a different perspective/POV.

When I travel I always carry and use 4mg (highest available) nic Lozenges. You don't actually suck on them, but let them sit between the gum and cheek which is where the nic is absorbed. You have to move it around occasionally and sometimes, it is too saliva saturated and kind of starts breaking up and therefore increasing the absorption rate due to increased release surfaces. Sometimes, the breaking up can cause a slight amount of nausea. The same manufacturer warnings go with the gum, chew a bit, but for the most part, chew a few times and "park" it between the gum and cheek.

Remember that you are swallowing every bit of the nic included in the Lozenge and/or gum. I did gum before, but I like the Lozenges much more. Anyway, the nausea, cough, throat irritation is a by product of absorbing too much too quickly and remember, you are ingesting 100% of the nic in one form or another. According to the manufacturer, the nic is absorbed in the mouth and not the stomach, perhaps something to do with stomach acids and nic absorption.

Anyway, I have ingested plenty of nic by using the Lozenges/gum and the worst is occasional light, I mean very light nausea. I am telling you this because when I do get e-liquid in or on my mouth, if it is a fair amount, I have sometimes felt a bit of the symptoms that go with smoking cessation products that have direct absorption. Think about a nic patch, skin absorption on a continual basis and those start you out at 21mg!

All I have to say is that since I have experience with nic absorption through Lozenges/gum, and can compare those "OD" symptoms to e-liquid contact, I wouldn't worry unless you were drinking the stuff. The occasional bit on the lips/tongue are bothersome, but once you start getting nauseous, then you should stop for awhile and let your body process the extra "hit" of nic. Most of my casual exposure to drops of e-liquid never results in nothing more that a bit of burning sensation to the lips and on very few occasions actually feel nauseous.

I don't play it fast and loose with my health and won't take stupid risks (other that having smoked analogues like an idiot) but having gone through the "clinically proven / FDA approved" nic products, there is little difference with vaping.

Last note: the one big difference is that I really enjoy vaping and any of the side effects I mentioned above are fairly rare as compared to the Lozenge/gum ingestion method.

I hope this sheds a little different light on the subject. We can do all the math we want, but with so many variables like absorption rates through different ingestion methods, percentages of actual nic, if 100% nic is absorbed differently in it's pure form as opposed to diluted states with other chemical factors at work that may decrease or increase absorption rates, it is difficult to tell.

Just follow you body. If you feel dizzy, nauseous, or any other negative effect, stop vaping until it goes away. Just wipe off any e-liquid you may come into contact with.

 

[Adrena]

Do you eat tomatoes? The Nicotine Content of Common Vegetables.. I use drip tips and cartos no juice ingesting here. I did try to vape laying down once. DON"T do it. yuck.......

 

[Zal42]

Just follow you body. If you feel dizzy, nauseous, or any other negative effect, stop vaping until it goes away. Just wipe off any e-liquid you may come into contact with.

Yep, that there's the bottom line. If you're getting too much nic, you will know long before it's a medical crisis.

Do you eat tomatoes? The Nicotine Content of Common Vegetables.. I use drip tips and cartos no juice ingesting here. I did try to vape laying down once. DON"T do it. yuck.......

I've never been sure what the point of bringing up the tomatoes is. That article lists the nic content of them at 4.4 ng per gram. A nanogram is 1/1000000 of a miligram. An average tomato weighs about 90 grams, so that's 396 nanograms, or 0.000396 mg. By any standard, that's a meaningless amount.

By the way, and completely off-topic, how do you keep from getting juice in your mouth with cartomisers? I recently started using them, and have been getting juice in my mouth a lot. This almost never happened to me with carts. I know it's not because of overfilling, but can't think of what I'm doing wrong.