I'd like a definitive answer once and for all: do amps matter?

[sahsah]

Allow me to elaborate: I've been vaping for over a year and every time I've ever heard this discussion come up several different viewpoints are claimed with equal levels of confidence and self assuredness lol so I still don't know what to believe. The question is, if you have a low ohm build like .25 with a standard amount of voltage, let's call that 4 volts compared to a build with a relatively high resistance like 3 ohms at 13.85 volts would they vary at all in the Vape experience (ie flavor, vapor production, throat hit, and vapor density)? Since they both result in the same amount of power going to the coil, just being achieved in different ways, the only difference is the amperage being pulled from your battery in either case. Also, let's assume that we are smart vapers and are only using power cells that can handle these loads.



In the first example the setup of .25 ohms @ 4 volts results in 64 watts and 16 amps

In the second example the setup of 3 ohms @ 13.85 volts results in 64 watts and 4.6618 amps
(13.85641 to be exact, just in case anyone's feeling particularly .... lol)

to to summarize both builds have the Same power ie wattage from their respective coils, despite very different resistances. The difference comes down to the amp draw on the battery, so does amperage effect Vape experience or will these to builds be identical in flavor, vapor production, vapor density, and throat hit? I honestly look forward to your responses and any insight or informed explanation anyone can provide on the subject. Thanks in advance and remember to always Vape safely and with the most enjoyment that's practical as well as socially acceptable lol
Keep on vaping all you cloud-chasing cowboys (and cowgirls) =]

 

[DrMA]

There are many factors determining the qualities of the vapor, but IMO the one that best answers the OP is the coil area-weighted energy density, expressed in units of energy (W) per area (mm²). Of course, heating time (lag), air flow, and wicking play a major role, but the more energy you can deliver to the coil surface area, the more vapor you'll produce.

In the OP example, assuming both coils are made from the same wire, the 3Ω coil will have a much larger surface than the 0.25Ω, but only the same total energy delivered from the battery. The larger coil will have a much lower energy density, thus perform weaker than the subohm coil.

 

[Froth]

Due to differences in wire size required to achieve differing coil resistances of .25 and 3.0 ohms the vape experience will undoubtedly be different between the two devices when set up in the way you proposed, even before we look at the electrical intricacies.

Think of the electricity flowing through your coil wire as water in a hose, voltage is the pressure and amperage is the volume of flow.

Your two proposed setups, lets use my analogy with them.
4 volts and 16 amps. "Low pressure, high volume"
13.85 volts and 4.66 amps. "High pressure, low volume"

Now, if they were water hoses they would both fill a bucket at the same rate...but if someone were to spray you with both of those different hoses individually do you think you would be able to tell them apart?

 

[keepsmiling]

Now, if they were water hoses they would both fill a bucket at the same rate...but if someone were to spray you with both of those different hoses individually do you think you would be able to tell them apart?

Umm sure, especially if one was yellow and one was green...

 

[Froth]

Umm sure, especially if one was yellow and one was green...

I see what you did there

 

[Ryedan]

In the first example the setup of .25 ohms @ 4 volts results in 64 watts and 16 amps

If this example is for a mechanical mod, I agree.

In the second example the setup of 3 ohms @ 13.85 volts results in 64 watts and 4.6618 amps
(13.85641 to be exact, just in case anyone's feeling particularly .... lol)

This OTOH is with a regulated mod and I'll assume it has one cell in it. Please correct me if I got that wrong.

The mod is outputting 13.85V, but the battery is outputting say the same 4V as in the first example. So, what is the amp draw on the battery to make 13.85V and 64 watts with a 3 ohm atty?

The mod:
3 ohms, 13.85641V, 64 watts.

For the battery, take the 64 watts (which we know is coming out of the mod, driven by the battery) and calculate the amps at 4.0V:
64 watts, 4V, 16A

So, the same as in the first example at 64 watts with 0.25 ohms at 4V. The actual amp draw will be a bit higher because the regulator is not 100% efficient.

 

[Bunnykiller]

yes it matters.... consider you have 2 batteries both with the same voltage, but with different amp ratings. Lets say one was a 1 A rating and a second has a 30A rating.
If you put a load on the low amp rating battery, it will cause the voltage to sag and not deliver the full voltage, if you put the same load on the hi A battery, the battery can deliver the voltage without sag. kinda like trying to use 2 9 volt batteries in series to get 18 volts and using it to start your car with it.... just wont work even tho the 18 volts is more volts than a 12 volt car battery....

 

[dr g]

In the OP example, assuming both coils are made from the same wire, the 3Ω coil will have a much larger surface than the 0.25Ω, but only the same total energy delivered from the battery. The larger coil will have a much lower energy density, thus perform weaker than the subohm coil.

Oh you know better than to make that statement ... going larger on a given coil is hardly guaranteed to return "weaker" results. As long as you are able to get the larger coil up to vaping temperature, you may well end up with "stronger" performance from it. Performance doesn't only happen in 3 dimensions.

For the OP ... it is entirely dependent on your build. This is true:

If this example is for a mechanical mod, I agree.



This OTOH is with a regulated mod and I'll assume it has one cell in it. Please correct me if I got that wrong.

The mod is outputting 13.85V, but the battery is outputting say the same 4V as in the first example. So, what is the amp draw on the battery to make 13.85V and 64 watts with a 3 ohm atty?

The mod:
3 ohms, 13.85641V, 64 watts.

For the battery, take the 64 watts (which we know is coming out of the mod, driven by the battery) and calculate the amps at 4.0V:
64 watts, 4V, 16A

So, the same as in the first example at 64 watts with 0.25 ohms at 4V. The actual amp draw will be a bit higher because the regulator is not 100% efficient.

... but even assuming you had a different, high-voltage power source, no, the amps don't matter by themselves. A lower amp "hit" may result in less voltage drop but assuming steady voltages, the amperage will really have no discernible effect. The hose analogy doesn't really hold up here because electricity flows nearly instantaneously.

 

[beckdg]

Since they both result in the same amount of power going to the coil, just being achieved in different ways, the only difference is the amperage being pulled from your battery in either case.



In the first example the setup of .25 ohms @ 4 volts results in 64 watts and 16 amps

In the second example the setup of 3 ohms @ 13.85 volts results in 64 watts and 4.6618 amps

The difference comes down to the amp draw on the battery

let's say 64 watts is being drawn from both batteries. let's also say the charge state expressed in voltage applied to the circuits are the same. (Each battery is applying 4.0V) Then both batteries will be seeing a 16 amp draw.

The regulated circuit will hold that power while the battery depletes in voltage resulting in a higher amp draw the lower the battery voltage drops. Meanwhile the output voltage and amperage will remain somewhat constant.

The mech circuit will lose voltage as the battery loses voltage resulting in lower amp output and quickly depleting power output.

Difference in amps would be on the output side as the circuitry would be boosting the battery voltage on your 3 ohm example to obtain the same power draw (or output as in your example).

Vapor production, flavor and harshness (throat hit) are going to depend on a myriad of variables including atty chamber size, air flow volume and position, construction of the coil and wick material and placement, etc..

However, what you seem to be asking about is along the lines of a formula to match a temperature and surface area based on coil resistance and voltage alone. Given the same materials and similar or identical coil construction that may be possible but I believe there's still going to be a difference in the vape.

 

[sahsah]

Due to differences in wire size required to achieve differing coil resistances of .25 and 3.0 ohms the vape experience will undoubtedly be different between the two devices when set up in the way you proposed, even before we look at the electrical intricacies.

Think of the electricity flowing through your coil wire as water in a hose, voltage is the pressure and amperage is the volume of flow.

Your two proposed setups, lets use my analogy with them.
4 volts and 16 amps. "Low pressure, high volume"
13.85 volts and 4.66 amps. "High pressure, low volume"

Now, if they were water hoses they would both fill a bucket at the same rate...but if someone were to spray you with both of those different hoses individually do you think you would be able to tell them apart?

Ok I see what you're saying, but in your example they both fill the bucket at the same time ie expelling the same amount of water within the same unit of time. So according to your analogy both setups would produce the same amount of power over a given amount of time but due to differences in the way that power is discharged across the coils ie varying surface areas on each coil or bucket sizes for the power to be channeled through will create different vapes? Is that what you meant bc that's exactly what I was arguing with someone on another forum...lol or am I just projecting the way I see it onto your analogy?

 

[sahsah]

If this example is for a mechanical mod, I agree.



This OTOH is with a regulated mod and I'll assume it has one cell in it. Please correct me if I got that wrong.

The mod is outputting 13.85V, but the battery is outputting say the same 4V as in the first example. So, what is the amp draw on the battery to make 13.85V and 64 watts with a 3 ohm atty?

The mod:
3 ohms, 13.85641V, 64 watts.

For the battery, take the 64 watts (which we know is coming out of the mod, driven by the battery) and calculate the amps at 4.0V:
64 watts, 4V, 16A

So, the same as in the first example at 64 watts with 0.25 ohms at 4V. The actual amp draw will be a bit higher because the regulator is not 100% efficient.

I honestly don't understand what you're asking, it saids right there what the amp draw is: 4.6618 amps
...?

 

[sahsah]

Oh you know better than to make that statement ... going larger on a given coil is hardly guaranteed to return "weaker" results. As long as you are able to get the larger coil up to vaping temperature, you may well end up with "stronger" performance from it. Performance doesn't only happen in 3 dimensions.

For the OP ... it is entirely dependent on your build. This is true:



... but even assuming you had a different, high-voltage power source, no, the amps don't matter by themselves. A lower amp "hit" may result in less voltage drop but assuming steady voltages, the amperage will really have no discernible effect. The hose analogy doesn't really hold up here because electricity flows nearly instantaneously.

ok so now we've got a divergent opinion on the matter. This is what seems to always occur, leaving me without a unanimous decision on the subject to put my curiosity as well as my insecurity on the validity of my percipiency of the subject, to rest.

so just to make sure I'm getting what you're saying +dr g : according to you, as long as both power sources are putting out clean consistent power (as I had intended in my example) then regardless of the different coil surface areas and resulting divergent concentrations of power ie wattage per square mm you contend that these two builds will create identical Vape experiences?

ps. Also, I'd like to not that I didn't intend for the first to be a mech mod and the second to be regulated. Basically the entire description is just a framework to ask if a high resistance high power build, resulting in relatively low amperage
compared to a low ohm build with low voltage resulting in high amperage (and done so that the resulting wattage at the coil in both builds is identical like in my example***) would the Vape experiences be different or identical since the power going to the coils are identical, but the amperages and the resistances are different

 

[dr g]

ok so now we've got a divergent opinion on the matter. This is what seems to always occur, leaving me without a unanimous decision on the subject to put my curiosity as well as my insecurity on the validity of my percipiency of the subject, to rest

It's not really a divergent opinion. You may be under the mistaken impression that output amps on a regulated circuit are the same as input amps. For example in your original post, your 13v unit can only be achieved with the same battery as the 4v example via a boost circuit. The input amps on the boost circuit to reach 64w will be the same as (actually slightly higher than) the 4v, 64w example.

Read this: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blogs/rader2146/3500-calculating-battery-drain-current.html

 

[RedBeard4081]

Yes they do, Red

 

[sahsah]

It's not really a divergent opinion. You may be under the mistaken impression that output amps on a regulated circuit are the same as input amps. For example in your original post, your 13v unit can only be achieved with the same battery as the 4v example via a boost circuit. The input amps on the boost circuit to reach 64w will be the same as (actually slightly higher than) the 4v, 64w example.

Read this: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blogs/rader2146/3500-calculating-battery-drain-current.html

ok, but I never said they were using the same battery...
In fact I said quite the opposite: "Also, let's assume that we are smart vapers and are only using power cells that can handle these loads."

 

[skoony]

if your using the same diameter coil in both builds the .25 ohm coil will be 12 times smaller than the three ohm coil.
putting roughly 3 and a half times more amperage through a coil one 1/12 the size results in a significant increase in heat resulting in OMG sized clouds as
opposed to woe thats cool looking clouds.

regards
mike

 

[dr g]

ok, but I never said they were using the same battery...
In fact I said quite the opposite: "Also, let's assume that we are smart vapers and are only using power cells that can handle these loads."

You literally said "the only difference is the draw on the battery" so that means the same battery, or your thinking is hopelessly muddled. When you are trying to figure something out you can't have too many variables, especially irrelevant ones. The point is the draw is just about the same between both, given a similar battery chemistry and configuration (1S lithium-ion, the standard).

 

[rusirius]

sahsah,
Power and Amps are intricately related... Let me try to simplify it... You're kinda masking a bit of the equation from yourself... Yes, your calculations are correct in that both setups are 64 watts... and that 3 ohms with 13 volts is going to draw 4 amps...

BUT...

Here's the part you aren't thinking about... You don't HAVE a 13 volts battery... You have a 4 volt battery... So you have to perform so "magic" to get that 13 volts... You do that via a "Transformer"... You can use other "switching" methods, but a transformer is the easiest way to think of it...

Voltage and Current (amps) are interchangeable... Meaning you can trade one for the other... You can ramp up the voltage at the expense of drawing more current... You can ramp up the current at the expense of losing voltage... But you can't create voltage or current from somewhere it doesn't exist.

In other words, you don't have a 13 volt battery to draw from for your 3 ohm coil... Instead the voltage from your 4 volt battery has to be stepped up to 13 volts... In doing so that means that the current is going to be ramped up too...

Your battery is only supplying 4 volts... rather you're stepping it up to 13 volts or keeping it the same... Do you see what I mean? If we "step up" the voltage to 8 volts, the only way we can do so from our 4 volt battery is to "draw more" current... So even though that 8 volts into a certain load may calculate out to say 5 amps, since we are feeding it from a 4 volt battery we're actually drawing 10 amps....

Is that making more sense now? When you are looking at your scenario, you are "stopping" at the mod... In other words, you're only seeing the 13volts at 4 amps... That's the drain on the circuit in the mod... But that mod has to be fed by something... In this case our 4 volt battery... And if you look at the drain on that battery which has to FEED the mod, you'll see that it's much higher than the 4 amps... In fact, it'll match the mech mod... Actually a bit higher because of efficiency losses...

So forget about that part of your question... Because "amps" will always be dependent on the power... Since we're always using the same source... a 4 volt battery... (i'm excluding other battery configs)

Now as for the other part... What the question really comes down to is... Is there a difference in vaping with different builds even if their power remains constant? And yes... There is.... Different wire gauge, different lag times in heating, different surface area, different wicking, different air flow, etc... It all changes it...

 

[Tangaroav]

'' The question is, if you have a low ohm build like .25 with a standard amount of voltage, let's call that 4 volts compared to a build with a relatively high resistance like 3 ohms at 13.85 volts would they vary at all in the Vape experience (ie flavor, vapor production, throat hit, and vapor density)? ''

if your using the same diameter coil in both builds the .25 ohm coil will be 12 times smaller than the three ohm coil.
putting roughly 3 and a half times more amperage through a coil one 1/12 the size results in a significant increase in heat resulting in OMG sized clouds as
opposed to woe thats cool looking clouds.

regards
mike

IMO this is the right answer to this question and is applicable to our vaping reality. We can change, add or substract variables and it will produce a long thread .....

 

[dr g]

'' The question is, if you have a low ohm build like .25 with a standard amount of voltage, let's call that 4 volts compared to a build with a relatively high resistance like 3 ohms at 13.85 volts would they vary at all in the Vape experience (ie flavor, vapor production, throat hit, and vapor density)? ''

IMO this is the right answer to this question and is applicable to our vaping reality. We can change, add or substract variables and it will produce a long thread that few will understand and those often become fast irrelevant to the original question.

3 people including myself told him this before that post.