IMR batteries: AW and "unbranded?"

[yzer]

After reading Rechargeable Batteries I am interested in the safety benefits of IMR LiMn batteries. A couple of questions...

1. Is AW a brand name and a manufacturer of IMR batteries?

IMR Li-Mn rechargeables
Manufacturers include AW and BDL. AW are reported as higher quality. These batteries are unlikely to explode in use. They are recommended in place of Li-ions and do not need protection. These batteries are of high quality and are therefore expensive - but you get what you pay for.
-Rechargeable Batteries

From what I can tell, AW does not manufacture IMR batteries but is a brand name that includes a line of IMR batteries.

2. Other than physical characteristics like button tops and bottom plates that affect fitment with specific devices, what is the difference in quality between AW IMR batteries and other IMR batteries? Given an IMR battery is the same size and has the same mAh rating as another IMR battery is one intrinsically more safe than the other?

3. I have several "universal" chargers YL-103A that I use to charge protected Li-ion batteries. These are single cell multi-stage chargers that terminate charge at 4.17V. Is this charger suitable for for charging IMR batteries?

 

[Mylt1]

thats what i have been trying to tell people on here. AW is nothing more than a seller. they buy there cells from either a manufacturer or distributor and has there brand "wrapper" on them. they are nothing special. pretty much any Li-ion battery can be found with the "button top". the flat tops are usually made for things like battery packs in laptop batteries. they can still be used in items that take button tops but requires a little work if the item they are being used in doesnt have a pos(+) end spring. most use little spacers or even the tiny magnets that radio shack sells. yes, you charger is fine. Li-ion is Li-ion, what will make a difference is if your cells have the button top. if they dont you will need a spacer like i mentioned above.

 

[mynameisrob]

The AW batteries do work well and they are worth the extra $. The IMR High-drains are nice are def worth it, especially for unregulated PVs bc they provide a more consistant voltage for longer as the battery drains, which will give a more consistant vape than a regular battery.

As far as if an AW High-Drain is safer, I have no idea. I think as long as its not a really cheap and/or fake battery it could be okay if its not an AW. AW doesnt make a 14650 High-Drain battery, and I have a 14650 High-Drain battery that I use on my E-Power and it works well. AW does make a 14670 protected battery that is the same size as a 14650, but its not a high-Drain.
The YL-103A charger is the one that comes with the E-Power right? If so then yeah it will charge the batteries fine and I charge my High-Drain battery on it all the time. It is alittle slow though, and the TR-001 charger charges them faster, plus allows you to charge 2 at once.

I dont know what AW IMR batteries your looking for, but check out RTDVapor and Super T Manufacturing. They both sell a lot of different AW and AW IMR High-Drain batteries. I like Super T because their shipping is only $1.71 as long as the orders under $36

 

[madjack]

I had a bad experience with BDL IMR batts...they worked wonderfully for about a month and then started to degrade in performance, finally after a couple of months they wouldn't even charge anymore...left a bad taste for IMR's in general and BDL in particular...the charger you have should work for IMR batts.......
madjack

 

[six]

1) AW buys premium cells mostly from panasonic

2) see #1 and note the words "premium cells"

3) The light turning green on some chargers does not actually indicate complete termination of charging. Most inexpensive chargers continue to put out a little voltage after the light turns green. Those chargers are still appropriate for IMR batteries if you remember to remove the batteries from the charger as soon as the light turns green and don't forget them for long periods of time.

 

[mwa102464]

The Panasonic 18650NCR18650 has been a leader in Batt specs for a while, a good reason why Telsa is using Panasonic for there new motors too, both AW & Redilast power cells are specked out the same as the Panasonic cells and basically are Panasonic Batts, these are of the highest quality on the market you will find. If you want to read and educate yourself more on Batteries in general and AW and other Batts the this would be a great place to go to yzer = CandlePowerForums there are some terrific reads here and some great education on Batts, ALL BATTS.

 

[yzer]

The Panasonic 18650NCR18650 has been a leader in Batt specs for a while, a good reason why Telsa is using Panasonic for there new motors too, both AW & Redilast power cells are specked out the same as the Panasonic cells and basically are Panasonic Batts, these are of the highest quality on the market you will find. If you want to read and educate yourself more on Batteries in general and AW and other Batts the this would be a great place to go to yzer = CandlePowerForums there are some terrific reads here and some great education on Batts, ALL BATTS.

I am ahead of you and have done the reading at CPF.

Note the specs of the AW batteries in this performance test are not stellar. A couple of Li-ion batteries do better in the 2-3 amp range, which is far more pertinent to e-cig operation than .3 amp which is better suited for LED flashlight light operation.

LiIon 18650 battery comparison

So, back to one of my original question:

2. Other than physical characteristics like button tops and bottom plates that affect fitment with specific devices, what is the difference in quality between AW IMR batteries and other IMR batteries? Given an IMR battery is the same size and has the same mAh rating as another IMR battery is one intrinsically more safe than the other?

 

[Mudflap]

So, back to one of my original question:

2. Other than physical characteristics like button tops and bottom plates that affect fitment with specific devices, what is the difference in quality between AW IMR batteries and other IMR batteries? Given an IMR battery is the same size and has the same mAh rating as another IMR battery is one intrinsically more safe than the other?

AW is a distributor, not a manufacturer. Their Li-ions are from Panasonic. Their LiMn batteries? I'm not entirely sure. AW is known for putting their label on high quality batteries, whereas other distributors are notorious for putting their brand on just about anything, including recycled cells. Here's a graph that compares AW IMR 18650 with a generic IMR 18650 under a 3 amp load: (a 1.5 ohm atty is drawing approximately 2.5 amps)

The AW IMR holds up considerably better from fully charged until about 3.65 volts. On my mechanical mod, I'm usually swapping out for a fresh battery when the battery discharges to 3.8 to 3.9 volts. That's just my preference. I wouldn't think one manufacturer's IMR is intrinsically more safe than that of another, but differences in performance have been demonstrated, so it's a valid question. I'd like to know the answer myself.

 

[six]

2. Other than physical characteristics like button tops and bottom plates that affect fitment with specific devices, what is the difference in quality between AW IMR batteries and other IMR batteries? Given an IMR battery is the same size and has the same mAh rating as another IMR battery is one intrinsically more safe than the other?

Performance specs? That page has measured capacity graphs. I don't see any drain curve graphs. If you follow the link at the top of that page to the rest of his tests, the only thing that's really applicable is the energy drop between .2 and 2.0 amp test. The AW 1600 IMR 18650 is the best performer.

With IMR, I don't know that you'll discover any that are safer than any others.

You can get BDLs or MNKEs. The MNKEs are OK (still outperformed by the AW, but way better performing than the BDLs). You would be better off getting almost any protected li-on 18650 than a BDL IMR 18650 as far as performance goes.

The difference in quality is just what I said before: "premium cells from panasonic". That's as good as it gets. mwa102464 said "leader in batt specs for a while". I don't know if there are any other ways to say it. Maybe: 'Top of the heap' or 'Cream of the Crop'?

If you're just looking for someone to say they think a BDL is as good as an AW or something like that, they would just be lying to you if they said it.

 

[Str8V8ping]

Just one think to add why AW IMR's are safer is because protection circuits are known to fail on occasion . When a protected battery drops below 2.7 there is a high chance of venting or failure. Aw IMRs iv seen go down to 2v without venting or doing any damage to the cell . Not only that but you will see that a few hours after a 2v reading it will automatically bounce itself up to a normal voltage . Iv have done this a few times on one cell and it has been through 40+ charge cycles since with no performance issues . You cant beat that topped with the higher performance it puts out in general . They are also cheaper than AW protected cells . Its a WIN WIN WIN situation .

 

[yzer]

I posed the question: Is an AW IMR battery intrinsically more safe than any other IMR battery?

If you read my posts for comprehension you will find that I did not ask the question:

Is an IMR battery more safe to operate than a protected Li-ion?

Aside from the performance of AW IMR to other IMR batteries and IMR performance compared to Li-ion performance the most important question I have: is an AW IMR a more safely operated battery than other IMR batteries?

At least one other poster would like to have the same answer.

 

[six]

I posed the question: Is an AW IMR battery intrinsically more safe than any other IMR battery?

If you read my posts for comprehension you will find [...]:

Try to stay focused.

I find that you asked 4 questions in 3 bullet points. The only one I didn't answer in my first response was about safety. I later clarified with "I don't know".

Answer to question 1 - they get most of their cells from panasonic
Answer to question 2 - they get most of their cells from panasonic'
Answer to question 3 - I don't know
Answer to question 4 - Some chargers don't really turn off when the light turns green but you can still use them if you are vigilant.

Then you went on to misinterpret the meaning of some graphs from candlepower and asked again what has already been answered by two or three people.

What am I missing? What did I fail to comprehend?

 

[Str8V8ping]

I posed the question: Is an AW IMR battery intrinsically more safe than any other IMR battery?

If you read my posts for comprehension you will find that I did not ask the questions:

1. Is an IMR battery more safe to operate than a protected Li-ion?

2. Which IMR battery performs better in e-cigarettes?

3. Do Li-ion batteries (protected or not) outperform IMR batteries in an e-cigarette?

Try to stay focused.

Well to answer your question ,yea AW IMR's are more safe than other IMR's because you know with AW your getting a quality Premium cell . If the other IMR you were comparing to also used the same premium IMR cells than they would be the same . IMR is IMR as far as the technology goes . Only differentiating factor would be the quality .

ICR 18650 = lithium cobalt oxide (traditional) cylindrical cell
IMR 18650 = lithium manganese oxide cylindrical cell
IFR 18650 = lithium iron phosphate cylindrical cell

 

[Technonut]

I happen to have a test I performed comparing TrustFire, BDL, and AW IMR 14500 batteries. As for AW sourcing their IMR batteries from other manufacturers, I find it odd there are no other vendors selling re-branded IMR batts of AW's quality available.

Regarding safety.... If you were to have a battery go into thermal runaway, the Li-ion batts would vent flames, and possibly explode. Because of the chemical makeup of the IMR, it would only vent gas, and not flame or explode.

As far as performance.. Depends on the size of the battery. An AW IMR will maintain consistent voltage and amp-output longer than a Li-Ion though... Here is the 14500 test:

We are talking facts here... TF / UF 14500 900mAh batteries (No matter what color the wrapper is) are rated by the manufacturer as putting out a maximum 1.3 amps A Low Resistance 1.5 ohm atomizer @ 3.7v requires 2.47 amps of power. Right off the bat we see that the LR 1.5 ohm atty is attempting to draw close to DOUBLE the rated amps of the TF UF 14500 900mAh battery. Will it work? Yes.. Is it stressing the battery? Yes, VERY much. It is not good, and can be potentially dangerous.

I just happen to have a month old TrustFire 14500 900mAh 3.7v battery which was included in a mod purchase. I also have a AW IMR 14500 600mAh 3.7v high drain battery. I have a LR VaporKings 1.5 ohm atty, and a big honking Leo standard ohm cartomizer. To throw in the mix, I also have a BDL IMR 14500 600mAh 3.7v high drain battery. These are lower cost IMR batteries, which have a reputation of not performing well.

Let's test these out... (Click To Enlarge All Pics)





Using my Craftsman Digital MM, the VaporKing 1.5 ohm atty actually ohms in @ 1.7 ohms, and the Leo Standard Resistance carto @ 3.0 ohms.




ALL 3 batteries are fresh off of my Swiss design Pila charger, which is considered one of the best chargers available. Let's take an initial voltage reading with no load on the REO Mini using a voltmeter which also has a top atty connector to measure actual voltage under load.. (TrustFire / BDL / AW IMR)





Nothing unusual here.. All 3 batteries are around the same voltage with no load as they should be.


Now, let's take a reading with the VaporKings LR 510 atty to get a reading under load. These pics were all taken after a 5 second button press on the Mini....





Given the TrustFire has an amp output rating of only 1.3 amps, and is attempting to power the LR atty which is attempting to draw around 2.47 amps, this extreme voltage drop is to be expected, and is REALLY stressing the battery. This is a 3.7v battery sucked down to 3.40v fresh off the charger with only a 5 second button press. The BDL does not fare much better for being marketed as an IMR high drain battery. The AW IMR is supplying more than enough amperage, and maintains it's rated 3.7V.


Now, let's throw the 3.0 ohm standard resistance Leo carto on with a 5 second button press...





Again, all batteries are performing as expected. The 3.0 ohm Leo carto is well within the rated amp output of the TrustFire 14500. The TF is not stressed, and is maintaining a consistant 3.72v. The same is true with the BDL... Neither of these batteries are stressed, and are performing as designed. The AW IMR maintains a whopping 3.90v with the 3.0 ohm carto, and despite the TrustFire being rated @ 900mAh, the AW IMR will actually last longer, and supply a steady high amp output.

This is not smoke and mirrors folks... Many vendors are selling the voltmeters which include a connector for under load readings. Feel free to try the same tests yourself.. I guarantee you will get the same results..

 

[yzer]

If the safety factor of all IMR batteries is the same then there is no reason to recommend AW IMR batteries over any other IMR battery as far as safety is concerned. Am I right?

Why do the ECF warnings on battery safety stress the value of AW IMRs so exclusively?

 

[D4rk50ul]

If the safety factor of all IMR batteries is the same then there is no reason to recommend AW IMR batteries over any other IMR battery as far as safety is concerned. Am I right?

Why do the ECF warnings on battery safety stress the value of AW IMRs so exclusively?

Why don't you just get to the point that you are trying to make. You are offended or for some reason bothered by the fact that AW brand is preferred and recommended over other brands. Every time someone answers why you ignore it and continue to ask why we go with AW.

Here are some reasons..

#1. They are consistent across their entire line, made from one of if not the highest quality cell available.
#2. They outperform their counterparts across the board on average
#3. There isn't a lot of options for high drain batteries from brands that offer this kind of *consistency*
#4. They outperform almost if not all other cells in safety and torture tests
#5. If ECF was to recommend a lesser quality battery just because of a brand monopoly, it would be doing its users a disservice and possibly causing increased risk to their well being.

 

[yzer]

I am prepared to believe that AW IMRs are better performers than other IMR makes and that performance headroom equates to improved safety.

Do I get it now?

 

[yzer]

I'd still like to see some comparative data. I'm not an engineer, so a graphic illustration of AW IMRs against IMRs from other sources would be helpful.

 

[deach]

Some "data" was posted right above in actual vaping use. ANYTIME you use a battery there is a risk of possible damage, overheating, etc. As you stated extra headroom equates to extra safety. I do not know how you use your PV. Not enough data was provided by you to answer the question for your personal vaping needs.

Since you've already been to cpf and I am guessing read hundreds of posts, you already know the AW's have been shown to work better provide more power than the others they were tested against. This was NOT vaping however...

To answer your last, I know of no comparative data in PV's published by anyone. (other than photos with voltmeters) I know of no data to show that the IMR batteries have "gone up in smoke" less than any other brand while used in PV devices.

Regards,
Deach

 

[D4rk50ul]

I use both of these battery types and can say they perform about the same. The CK is not the same chemistry as the AW IMR and is instead based off of this cell here. Since the chemistry is different and less tested its safer to recommend the true LiMn battery for now. I can't find any "visual" data on the budget brand IMR's other than some graphs showing them get outperformed which isn't going to answer the safety question.

Keep in mind the following video was filmed by CK and there are edits done on the first cell's test, whereas the AW is a continuous shot. Not calling foul play (actually I kinda am considering no reaction when the CK battery was shorted when there should have been massive discharge and smoke for the wire sheaths) and it really doesn't matter as THIS is why I refuse to use anything other than a safe chemistry battery in my mods.

Would you do this with a $3.00 battery?

This is not a which one is better demonstration, its two high quality IMR batteries doing what they are suppose to do in the worst possible scenario.