Is this the reason that people prefer HV vaping?

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Hdivr

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O.k. Here's my thoughts. I'm a 3.7v vapor using a 1.7 ohm carto or atty to achieve my "sweet spot" around 8 or 9 watts of power. In viewing other post, I see people who love HV vaping and I'm trying to understand why....

Here's my thinking ..... getting to 8 watts can be done with either method so....

I understand that the HV atomizers/cartos have a longer length of nichrome wire (more resistance). So do HV vapors get more vapor production because of more surface contact? ie More nichrome wraps around the wick = more vapor = more juice used at the same 8 watts.......

Correct?
 

Hdivr

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My brain is just telling me "8 watts is 8 watts" no matter how you get there........:unsure:

For example, some vapors just rave about the dual coil cartos........ now they are getting to their 1.5 ohm total resistance by having two 3.0 ohm coils in series. Or you can have a single coil 1.5 ohm carto. The difference is the larger area subjected to vaporization. I'm just pondering if this is why HV vapor like their setup. No difference in power output, just more nichrome wire = more production.

If so, then is there really an advantage to HV vaping? Maybe HV attys/carto use a thicker wire with more longevity before failure?
 

vaptamist

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You ask a good question. Maybe "8 watts is 8 watts" as you put it. What I can tell you is that if I take a 2-2.5 atty/carto and use it on 3.7 it is OK. That very same atty/carto on 5v goes from ok to superb!

Edit: matter of taste I guess.

A 2.5 atty at 3.7 volts would be about 5.5 watts
A 2.5 atty at 5 volts would be about 10 watts

Pretty huge difference - I think the OP is more so comparing something like this:

1.7 atty at 3.7 volts = 8 watts
3.1 atty at 5.0 volts = 8 watts

And asking what the actual difference would be. One difference would be that 1.7 ohm atty on 3.7 volts would pull more current out of a battery than the 3.1 / 5.0 combo. Don't think that's really what he's looking for though.
 

MickeyRat

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Watts is a measure of energy. One way to look at it is to think about stove burners. To have a small burner dissipate the same energy as a larger burner in the same amount of time means the smaller burner must be hotter. The lower resistance atomizer must be hotter to dissipate the same amount of energy as the higher res atomizer at the same wattage. This does effect the quality of the experience with some juices. It's not just heat. Some juices get a burnt taste at higher temperatures. So, equal energy dissipation does not mean an equal experience.
 

Papa Lazarou

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A 60w bulb on a 230v mains supply is no brighter than a 60w bulb on 110v, or even on a 60w bulb powered by a 12v car battery. Watts are watts. Atty's work on the same principal - passing an electrical current through a coiled filament - so I don't think there's any magical difference from adding more volts, compared to lowering the atty resistance. Adding dual coils into the equation is a different matter though, because they have two distinct heat sources.

No difference in power output, just more nichrome wire = more production.

If so, then is there really an advantage to HV vaping? Maybe HV attys/carto use a thicker wire with more longevity before failure?

On the wire thickness issue, you could use less wire to get a lower resistance, or you could use a longer length of a thicker wire. For example if you wanted to make average resistance coils on a repairable atomizer like a Bulli, you could use 5 turns of .15mm Kanthal wire. If you wanted to make a low resistance coil you could use 3 turns (i.e. less) of the same wire. It lowers the resistance but you get less surface area in contact with the wick, and I've found it can get a bit burnt tasting. I've found what works better (IMO) is taking a thicker wire like .2mm, and maybe using 6 turns of it, which lowers the resistance and spreads the heat over a wider area, so it is less likely to burn flavours.

To make a high resistance coil for high voltage vaping, you could either use the 0.15mm wire and just use more of it (more turns), or if you needed much higher resistance, you could switch to a thinner wire.
 
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SiBurning

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Ignoring the issue of the absolute amount of heat, here's some other background that might help clear up a few things...

For a resistor, we're always talking about the wattage converted into heat. That heat goes somewhere. It starts in the conductor (wire), but as you continue to apply electrical current and generate more heat, the heat conducts or radiates out of the wire. If the heat is generated faster than the conductor can dissipate it, it builds up in the conductor causing its temperature to increase. If this condition continues, at some point the temperature will become high enough to melt or sublimate the conductor (or part of it) and open the circuit.

Leaving aside certain issues such as choice of materials and wetting/wicking properties... The rate of heat transfer is dependent on the difference in temperature, and the area through which the heat flows, and it's inversely related to the length of material through which the heat has to flow (in this case, the thickness of the wire). A larger temperature difference causes heat to flow faster. A larger surface or contact area causes heat to flow faster. A thicker wire causes heat to flow more slowly.

If the goal is to transfer as much heat as possible as quickly as possible (i.e. to produce the most vapor in a given period of time), the most efficient conductor will heat quickly, maximize the surface area, and minimize the wire thickness. This means using the longest, thinnest wire possible, while still accounting for the actual values for the materials (i.e. liquid and nichrome). All of these optimization (hot, thin, & long) also increase electrical resistance (or for heat, depend on increased resistance). Higher resistance requires a larger voltage to convert the same amount of energy to heat.

So it seems to me that if you want to design an atty to produce maximum vapor in an efficient manner, you end up with a high resistance device, and that requires the use of higher voltages to generate a given quantity of heat.

There's a lot of other factors, such as whether heat flows faster through the conductor or across the conductor-liquid boundary, how long you apply the electrical current, the wicking system that replaces evaporated coolant; and other heat losses such as through the physical wire mount, heating of the liquid without achieving evaporation, and radiation through the liquid or directly to air. I dare to guess that we don't want to heat the liquid unless we're actually evaporating it, which argues for very fast heat transfer, which happens at very high temperatures. As anyone that solders knows, too low a temperature applied for too long a time is what burns things unintentionally. Conversely, evaporating the liquid too quickly will cause a space to appear between the liquid and conductor, potentially burning the atty. Undesirable chemical processes might also occur at high temperatures--I really don't know what exactly happens when you "cook" the liquid either at low or high temperatures. Obviously, these things have to be factored into the design of an atty, or we'd all just use very high voltages and the longest conductor possible. In the end, it's all about making tradeoffs.
 
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SiBurning

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The people I know that vape HV do it because they can't reach the wattage they want with a 3.7v battery.

There's a few people in ECF chat that consistently vape at 30+ watts. 7.4v mod with a 1.5 ohm atty.

Don't ask me how they do it without blowing atties or setting their juice on fire.
I modified my post to make it clear that I wasn't addressing this issue. Thanks for this post.

I suspect that the answer to using high wattage has something to do with the heat dissipation between the atty and liquid. Does anyone happen to know the thermal conductivity or R-value of e-liquid? :blush:

nichrome: 11.3 W/m K
PG: 0.34 W/m K
So PG doesn't conduct heat nearly as well, which means it builds at the boundary, raising the temperature quickly, and helping to evaporate the liquid on the surface of the atty.
 
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Vapenstein

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One of the arguments has always been that you're asking too much of your battery running LR at 3.7v. Using a 3ohm atty at 5v you're running your batteries within their intended operating range. Perhaps atty lifespan is improved as well. You also get better TH at HV. For me, HV was a wash, at least until I get my hands on a VV device. The 5v device I had cooked my juice regardless of atty resistance. Better TH is not worth burnt tasting juice. For me anyway. 3.7v + LR is a sweet spot that's tough to beat for a lot of people, myself included.
 
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