Just got notice that Mt. Baker Vapor won't be selling to Utah

[zoiDman]

Got to agree with that. If they controlled nic they would control everything. But the nic supply seems to an afterthought in their strategy. Maybe there's some reason for that which I haven't figured out yet.

Afterthought? I think e-liquids that contain Nicotine Is/Has Been 1st and Foremost since Day 1. It's where their Authority Lies.

I think the FDA has been Masterful by not speaking much about e-liquids. And I'm sure they are More Than Happy to watch the vaping Community focus more on Hardware. Than what we put in our Hardware.

 

[zoiDman]

EHhhhhhnot if you effectively "ban" all hardware currently on the market produced after 2007......

Like I said, controlling Hardware is going to be Problematic. "Intended Use" is a Regulatory Over-Reach. One only has to look at the Vaporizing Market for "the thing we can Not Talk about here" to see pitfalls for a Highly Controlled market.

And there will be Challenged in the Courts.

Not saying that everything will be Unicorns and Rainbows. But Nicotine is the Key. And the FDA Knows this. They are Not Stupid.

 

[YoursTruli]

I wonder though... I have little doubt the FDA will halt internet/mail order sales on eliquid all said and done but the states are moving at a much faster rate concerning all of this.

 

[zoiDman]

I wonder though... I have little doubt the FDA will halt internet/mail order sales on eliquid all said and done but the states are moving at a much faster rate concerning all of this.

I think what you are Seeing is the Backlash of the FDA Not being able to move forward in a Timely Fashion.

States operate is a Well Defined legislative timeframe. And the Concept of a State waiting another Legislative Cycle to do what the FDA has said they should have done already has kinda reached the End of the Road.

 

[skoony]

Funny... I see it as the Direct Opposite.

Because trying to Regulate Hardware is going to be Problematic. Whereas Regulating/Restricting e-Liquids that contain Nicotine kinda goes after the Head of the Snake.

If internet sales are banned and the states are breathing down the throats of the B&M's
The only DIY hardware you can get will be what you can buy from the hardware store and
modify yourself. Remember the FDA is also expanding it's definitions of what advertising
is to include to what something is actually used for not,what it is advertised as.
Those that have the skills will be able to build their own hardware. The rest of the
95% of us will be stuck with what we get. The FDA isn't interested in cutting off
the snakes head. It wants the whole snake,rattlers and all.
I have mentioned before in the eyes of the FDA every component of the hardware
and, every ingredient of the e-juice taken alone is just as dangerous by itself or any
combination of the components or ingredients if used to consume new generation
"tobacco products". Did I mention we are not vapers anymore? In the eyes of the
FDA and ANTZ et al, we are tobacco users.
They do not want to restrict nicotine at least at the wholesale level. They want to control
how we get it. They are going to need all the nicotine they can get for their approved products.
The FDA is not concerned with the taxation. They will leave that up to their more than willing
minions.(No,not the yellow ones.)

Regards
Mike

 

[zoiDman]

When If internet sales are banned and the states are breathing down the throats of the B&M's
The only DIY hardware you can get will be what you can buy from the hardware store and
modify yourself. Remember the FDA is also expanding it's definitions of what advertising
is to include to what something is actually used for not,what it is advertised as.
Those that have the skills will be able to build their own hardware. The rest of the
95% of us will be stuck with what we get. The FDA isn't interested in cutting off
the snakes head. It wants the whole snake,rattlers and all.
I have mentioned before in the eyes of the FDA every component of the hardware
and, every ingredient of the e-juice taken alone is just as dangerous by itself or any
combination of the components or ingredients if used to consume new generation
"tobacco products". Did I mention we are not vapers anymore? In the eyes of the
FDA and ANTZ et al, we are tobacco users.
They do not want to restrict nicotine at least at the wholesale level. They want to control
how we get it. They are going to need all the nicotine they can get for their approved products.
The FDA is not concerned with the taxation. They will leave that up to their more than willing
minions.(No,not the yellow ones.)

Regards
Mike

I Fixed that for you Mike.

 

[skoony]

I Fixed that for you Mike.

Thank you!,Mister Helper.
Regards
Mike

 

[englishmick]

Not saying that everything will be Unicorns and Rainbows. But Nicotine is the Key. And the FDA Knows this. They are Not Stupid.

Could be. But that would mean they are more cunning and sophisticated than I've given them credit for. I always saw them as a disorganized rabble of bureaucrats following individual career related agendas and assorted different paymasters. That's how government normally operates.

I guess we'll find out soon enough.

 

[zoiDman]

Could be. But that would mean they are more cunning and sophisticated than I've given them credit for. I always saw them as a disorganized rabble of bureaucrats following individual career related agendas and assorted different paymasters. That's how government normally operates.

I guess we'll find out soon enough.

Not say'n that there Aren't some who are not Disorganized Rabble. Government agencies have a Inordinate amount of "Dead Wood". But on the Higher Decision Making Levels you have Very Knowledgeable Individuals.

They may not Seem like it sometimes with some of the Statements they make. Just like Many Politicians act like they know Very Little about e-Cigarettes and their Benefits.

It is just Easier sometimes to Play the Fool and Push for directions you want, than it is to have to Acknowledge and Answer the Tough Questions about why you are going to do what you say you Want To Do in the face of Study Data that says you are Wrong.

 

[crxess]

I think what you are Seeing is the Backlash of the FDA Not being able to move forward in a Timely Fashion.

FDA never intended to move Fast after FAIL #1
Much simpler to sit back and backroom deal with individual state governments. Point out Federal fund losses, state Tax Revenue losses and let them have at it.
Each state governing body becoming a Snake of the head of Hydra - FDA

Then the FDA can just step up and say - in response to the outcry and concerns of near every state in the union we are taking actions to control this infestation on the people called e-cigarettes or Vaping.

Rather than a single division of Government once again taking on the people of the Nation, it made total sense to divide and conquer.

 

[zoiDman]

FDA never intended to move Fast after FAIL #1
Much simpler to sit back and backroom deal with individual state governments. Point out Federal fund losses, state Tax Revenue losses and let them have at it.
Each state governing body becoming a Snake of the head of Hydra - FDA

Then the FDA can just step up and say - in response to the outcry and concerns of near every state in the union we are taking actions to control this infestation on the people called e-cigarettes or Vaping.

Rather than a single division of Government once again taking on the people of the Nation, it made total sense to divide and conquer.

Could be.

I just don't see any Nefarious Collusion between the FDA and States. I think in Many Ways that the FDA is a Victim of their own Red Tape.

 

[WillyZee]

easier to monitor taxes with face to face sales ... and prices are always higher ... which means more taxes

no doubt, there will be a black market

 

[Steamix]

That would by my guess too - FDA hitting on the hardware, liquids are left for the individual states to feast on to plug their budgets.

Tobacco tax fills many a feeding trough. With fewer smokers, tax rake isn't what they're used to, MSA payments the same.

And states would sure raise a stink if all that nice dough gets syphoned off at the federal level.

Standard Machiavelli : Make lots of noises about banning it altogether, then pretend to show leniency and be a good ruler by allowing your grateful subject to have their vaping toys - heavily taxed.

There's always a slight - or not so slight - difference between public statements and backroom deals.

Pols might not be always smart, but I'd never underestimate their deviousness...

 

[YoursTruli]

easier to monitor taxes with face to face sales ... and prices are always higher ... which means more taxes

no doubt, there will be a black market

I agree with the exception of the black market thing, I just do not feel it is going to be as viable in practice as people think it will be, I am sure some will take place as with anything of the like that is government controlled.

 

[7sixtwo]

For anyone who hasn't yet seen it, Matt makes some great points here:



Being an NRA, (also GOA), member, it frustrates me that there isn't a similarly strong organization to fight for the rights of people who use APV's.. but even moreso that many of those who're in the organizations that do exist are more concerned with not "causing offense" than with effective action.

The only thing that motivates most politicians to deal in an honest and fair manner, (y'know, actually representing their constituents), is the threat of losing their position/s. ~10 million people is a significant "special interest" group, and could much more effectively influence vaping legislation/regulation if properly organized, with the right aggressive attitude.

 

[Talen]

Personally I don't see how the FDA or any other entity could even try to ban any of the hardware used in vaping. Stores can just add a 510 flashlight attachment to the mod and they are now selling a variable wattage, variable voltage, temp controlled flashlight instead of a vaping device. Mechanical mods are just tubes but they can become flashlights as well. Other options can easily be thought of for tanks and rda's.

If you don't believe me then consider the inhalant known as rush...sniff it and just as it says it gives you a rush. After the FDA banned the substance it poped back up labeled as a room deodorizer and video head cleaner. The FDA then got smart and banned the actual chemical in the bottle. The companies used a slightly lesser synthetic ingredient that basically does the same thing and you can still purchase these products nationwide with no problems.

The FDA can't stop the hardware side...but they will mess with the liquid side a whole lot ... that's where they will try and limit flavors, mg's of nic, how it's made, where it's made and who can make it.

 

[7sixtwo]

Personally I don't see how the FDA or any other entity could even try to ban any of the hardware used in vaping. Stores can just add a 510 flashlight attachment to the mod and they are now selling a variable wattage, variable voltage, temp controlled flashlight instead of a vaping device. Mechanical mods are just tubes but they can become flashlights as well. Other options can easily be thought of for tanks and rda's.

If you don't believe me then consider the inhalant known as rush...sniff it and just as it says it gives you a rush. After the FDA banned the substance it poped back up labeled as a room deodorizer and video head cleaner. The FDA then got smart and banned the actual chemical in the bottle. The companies used a slightly lesser synthetic ingredient that basically does the same thing and you can still purchase these products nationwide with no problems.

The FDA can't stop the hardware side...but they will mess with the liquid side a whole lot ... that's where they will try and limit flavors, mg's of nic, how it's made, where it's made and who can make it.

The very concept of "deeming regulations" is insane, and overtly tyrannical.

"By the powers of the infallible, almighty Gubmint; I hereby deem that water is wine, and will now be subject to the taxes and regulations placed on alcohol."

APV equipment has literally nothing to do with tobacco.

 

[skoony]

Personally I don't see how the FDA or any other entity could even try to ban any of the hardware used in vaping. Stores can just add a 510 flashlight attachment to the mod and they are now selling a variable wattage, variable voltage, temp controlled flashlight instead of a vaping device. Mechanical mods are just tubes but they can become flashlights as well. Other options can easily be thought of for tanks and rda's.

They can not ban any specific single component of the hardware but can regulate its use.
If you have a 100 ft roll of kanthal,40-510 connectors, 10 ft of steel or other metal tubing,
a pond of cotton, a threading tool, a solder gun,wire snips,batteries, other miscellaneous items
and,how to video's in your browser history one would hope you can convince
them your making hand crafted portable toasters.

Mike

 

[Talen]

They can not ban any specific single component of the hardware but can regulate its use.
If you have a 100 ft roll of kanthal,40-510 connectors, 10 ft of steel or other metal tubing,
a pond of cotton, a threading tool, a solder gun,wire snips,batteries, other miscellaneous items
and,how to video's in your browser history one would hope you can convince
them your making hand crafted portable toasters.

Mike

They won't bother with regulating how we use it... Our government can't even figure out how not to sell guns to crazy people and I would bet a lot more people are up the governments collective .... to get new gun regulations so they feel safe sending their kids to school.

But...it does bring up the point that while they won't regulate the end user they will try to regulate the importers and homegrown makers of such mods.

 

[skoony]

They won't bother with regulating how we use it... Our government can't even figure out how not to sell guns to crazy people and I would bet a lot more people are up the governments collective .... to get new gun regulations so they feel safe sending their kids to school.

But...it does bring up the point that while they won't regulate the end user they will try to regulate the importers and homegrown makers of such mods.

I am not so sure. When is the last time you bought sudifed or anhydrous ammonia?
Regards
Mike