Looking for help with harshness

[we87]

Okay, so I mix everything at 70vg 30pg, usually 6 mg. My pg vg come from essential depot. My nicotine is 100mg in VG from MFS.

I store the bulk of my nicotine in the freezer, and leave 100ml or so out in a cupboard (cool dry place) and my flavors (mainly TPA and CAP) under the bed (cool dry place) everything is sealed in a Tupperware container.

I do not mix my own recipes, I only follow recipes. I've tried everything from bakery, tobacco, fruits, creams, etc. I've been doing it for a few years, and everything is harsh.

I've always chalked it up to needing experience. But I'm starting to get fed up.

I've mixed VG PG and nicotine only, in 6mg - not harsh. According to what I've read, that eliminates the nicotine being bad.

I've mixed 3mg recipes, those aren't harsh (most of the time).

But usually, when I mix simple or complex, in 6mg it's harsh.

I recently did a snake oil clone in 3mg 70/30 - smooth as butter.

I did a orange cream recipe in 3mg 70/30, it was harsh. (4% FW blood orange, 3% TPA orange cream, 1.5% TPA vanilla bean ice cream, 2.5% CAP vanilla custard, 1.5% TPA vanillin)

Looking for some advice or pointers.

My adv is 5% TPA Bavarian cream, 12% TPA Western @ 6mg 70/30 - that's not harsh and has been what keeps me going as far as diy goes. I recently made up a batch and lowered the percentages by 2% and it's harsh - no idea why. Added the extra missing flavoring to the already made bottle tonight, hoping that fixes it.

BTW I steep for two to three weeks usually before I vape a mix. Forgot to mention that.

Thanks in advance for any information.

TL;DR most of my 6mg juices come out harsh, most of my 3mg juices come out okay. Looking to eliminate the harshness.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

I have noticed throughout the years that different flavors/mixes taste different depending on the amount of wattage applied to it. One recipe can taste great at a lower wattage but burns/taste harsh at a higher one. And vice versa. I believe you should find that recipes sweet spot no matter if its different from the next recipe you make. Try different sittings and see if you can tell a difference. I know I can.

 

[NatashaTMT]

I know you said you tested the nicotine by vaping only your base... VG/PG & nic but I’d still recommend trying nicotine from another vender. I say this because your 3mg are mostly not harsh and your 6mg are mostly harsh. I was going to suggest that perhaps your ultra sensitive to flavors but then you said you dropped flavor percentage in a usually smooth mix making it harsh. This reminds me of that saying about not fixing what isn’t broke. However, if this was an experiment to try to determine your issue, I understand. It might be that you’re only sensitive to certain types of flavors. My dd is this way. If after trying a different nic doesn’t work, I’d add flavors selectively to determine if these are the culprit. Wish I could help more but this is a bit puzzling!

 

[NatashaTMT]

I have noticed throughout the years that different flavors/mixes taste different depending on the amount of wattage applied to it. One recipe can taste great at a lower wattage but burns/taste harsh at a higher one. And vice versa. I believe you should find that recipes sweet spot no matter if its different from the next recipe you make. Try different sittings and see if you can tell a difference. I know I can.

Absolutely, 100%! Airflow also matters.

 

[Letitia]

You need to breathe many flavors. Take the cap off the orange cream a let it sit for 2 hours and then purge. Give it a good skake and try it again. May have to do it a couple times.

 

[Opinionated]

There is something you haven't tried.. it's worth a shot just to see.

MTS vape wizard or TFA smooth..

Too much and you'll kill your juice (I'm talking one drop in a 10ml tester) so you might want to dilute it before adding it to mixes that are problematic for you to make it less likely you'll destroy a mix..

 

[NatashaTMT]

How are you mixing, shaking or using a device? My very first mix was harsh and I thought I’d really messed up. Turns out, it wasn’t mixed well and was actually quite tasty

 

[stols001]

I have both those additives, (well, one isn't in my possession yet, but I've ordered it. I don't tend to have harsh mixes but I really like the Wizard as an additive to add mouthfeel and a few other things. You might try and additive to see if it helps. I agree with others that it's possible the nic is the culprit but IDK for sure.

It is also true that sometimes over a long period, how we react to things changes. I did not become sensitive to PG all at once, I was able to vape it for a while, dual using but when I did get sensitive it was almost instantaneous. Etc.

Hope you get it figured out!

Anna

 

[BrotherBob]

most of my 6mg juices come out harsh, most of my 3mg juices come out okay. Looking to eliminate the harshness.

I agree with the nic theory, look like you will have to try different nic's and suppliers.

 

[IDJoel]

I don't know if I am buying the nic theory (but then I am often wrong); @we87 says the usual 6mg. unflavored test was just fine. Maybe, as a firm(er?) rule-out, mix a small batch of unflavored at 9mg/mL. That would put the concentration 50% above the "norm." If that is still not harsh; then I am skeptical that it is the nic. (Though, if harsh, that could be simply from too much nic, and not because of "bad" nic. So I am not sure how informative this might end up being.). I will say, strictly from an anecdotal point of view; I recently tripled my nicotine (from 6mg/mL, to 18mg/mL) and I noticed no increased harshness. how much is me (my perception), and how much was the nic... I have no idea.

Any left over could be diluted down to the normal 6%.

I am more inclined to think along the same lines as @Sugar_and_Spice, and @Letitia, and suspect the hardware settings (power, temp, wicking, airflow), or flavor concentrates (or something in the concentrates; like ethyl alcohol) as a more likely culprit.

I like the following (previous) suggestions in this order:
-- Experiment with the hardware settings: raise/lower power/temp; increase/decrease airflow, check wicking (does it look like it is drying out <not to the point of giving dry hits; but not well saturated either>).
-- Try "breathing" (uncapped, no drip-tip) one of your harsh mixes. This can be particularly helpful if you store your finished mixes in glass.
-- Try one of the smoothing agents (MTS Vape Wizard by Flavor Art; Smooth by TFA). I am not as sensitive as @Opinionated; I would start with 0.25-0.50% of the MTS VW, or 0.50-1.0% of the Smooth. These can also be added to your already-made harsh flavors; there should be little to no additional aging required (24 hours tops?). Keep some of the original mix as is... for comparison. This will help you better decide if it is going to be a flavor killer for you.
-- Ethyl Maltol (EM, Cotton Candy) can also act as a smoothing agent. (And, it too, can also be a flavor killer. ) You may already have this in your flavor stash. If so, 0.25-1.0% is where I would try.

The one original thought I had (or at least one I haven't seen mentioned yet), is the amount of flavoring in your recipes. I know you said reducing your ADV recipe by 2% actually made it harsh, so I could be totally wrong. But, the two recipes you gave percentages for, totaled 12.5% and 17% total flavoring. That is not extremely high; but it is on the higher side of most(?) of today's recipes.

It seems to me, that as the hardware has evolved of the past 5 years that I have been vaping, that recipes (in general) are using less flavoring. What tasted good in my little Vivi Nova tank; now tastes completely unvapeable in my dual coil DTL set-up. Diluting some of the recipes, by half (or more), is the only thing that saved several of them. I can't say for certain, that it was the hardware change, or if it was my taste buds recovering/changing, or if it is/was just in my head... but it worked.

A simple test, without wasting a bunch more inventory; would be to (again) use one of your existing "harsh mixes," and dilute it, with some premixed unflavored at your usual nic strength and PG/VG ratio. That might be able to give you insight on a few things:
-- It will keep your nic strength constant; so reduced nic can't be credited for smoothing out the mix.
-- It will let you see if it is smoother.
-- It will let you see if it still tastes good, to you, with less flavor overall.

If you have the empty bottles handy; you could even set up multiple dilutions (say; 25%, 50%, and 75%) to see how much diluting my be required. Keeping a bit of the original mix, for comparison, may again be helpful. They don't need to be large either; 5mL testers should be plenty to get an idea if it is worth pursuing.

I would keep in mind, that even with this simple dilution, that it may be necessary to adjust your hardware settings, so include that when your are test-vaping.

I know how frustrating DIY can be when nothing is tasting good; I hope you find what works for you. We're all pullin' for you!

 

[we87]

WOW THERES A LOT OF INFORMATION

Thank you all VERY much for all the detailed replies.

I have noticed throughout the years that different flavors/mixes taste different depending on the amount of wattage applied to it. One recipe can taste great at a lower wattage but burns/taste harsh at a higher one. And vice versa. I believe you should find that recipes sweet spot no matter if its different from the next recipe you make. Try different sittings and see if you can tell a difference. I know I can.

You know, my tanks style really hasn't changed too terribly much. I don't drip or sub ohm, and usually vape temp coils at 15 - 20 watts MTL. Plus there's certain mixes that taste just fine in the same tank that other mixes don't. I'll definitely take it into consideration though and vape lower wattage and see how that works for me.

I know you said you tested the nicotine by vaping only your base... VG/PG & nic but I’d still recommend trying nicotine from another vender.....

That's a great point. I've only really used MFS nic. I know I had a sample of VaporTek nic once, but that was years ago. I did the same thing, one mix with MFS and one mix with VT nic and they were both harsh. Granted, that was at the beginning of my DIY journey and didn't really test the way it should have (flavorless) but yes, I think it's time to get some other nic just to see.

You need to breathe many flavors. Take the cap off the orange cream a let it sit for 2 hours and then purge. Give it a good skake and try it again. May have to do it a couple times.

Oh man I hope that works! Such a simple fix..... I'm gonna leave the cap off and leave the bottle in the closed cabinet overnight, think that'll work?

There is something you haven't tried.. it's worth a shot just to see.

MTS vape wizard or TFA smooth.

Haven't played with these in a long time also. I just added 1 drop per ml to an already made bottle. I'll see how that goes.

How are you mixing, shaking or using a device? My very first mix was harsh and I thought I’d really messed up. Turns out, it wasn’t mixed well and was actually quite tasty

Just shaking the bottles vigorously for about 5 minutes give or take. I make sure there's about 10 to 20 ml worth of area left in the bottle so there's room shake though.

I don't know if I am buying the nic theory (but then I am often wrong); @we87 says the usual 6mg. unflavored test was just fine. Maybe, as a firm(er?) rule-out, mix a small batch of unflavored at 9mg/mL. That would put the concentration 50% above the "norm." If that is still not harsh; then I am skeptical that it is the nic. (Though, if harsh, that could be simply from too much nic, and not because of "bad" nic. So I am not sure how informative this might end up being.).

I think this is a fantastic idea. If unflavored at 9mg, and it isn't harsh, it can't possibly be the nicotine. Will try and report back.

As far as ethyl maltol, there's actually 1% in the last few recipes I mixed that I feel is harsh.

It's hard to say what flavor percentage i usually mix because I mainly follow clone recipes and they can be all over the place. Some mixes are 7% and all flavor art and it's so harsh I can't vape it. Others are 15% TPA and are great. I usually try to do recipes that have alot of reviews or comments or at least some kind of validation that somebody else mixed it and liked it, not just the one recipe that somebody like myself is just experimenting with.

I ABSOLUTELY agree with the evolving of hardware. That's one of the reasons I was lowering the percentage of my ADV because before yeah I needed it to be high in flavor to get taste from there juice from silica wicks, blah blah blah but now out of a Kayfun Prime or whatever it is a little overpowering sometimes. Not harsh just "heavy" if that makes sense.

SO MUCH STUFF TO TRY THANK YOU ALL.

 

[Opinionated]

Haven't played with these in a long time also. I just added 1 drop per ml to an already made bottle. I'll see how that goes.

Wow... that's a LOT!

Good luck to you though... I do mean that.. good luck.

 

[Opinionated]

-- Try one of the smoothing agents (MTS Vape Wizard by Flavor Art; Smooth by TFA). I am not as sensitive as @Opinionated; I would start with 0.25-0.50% of the MTS VW, or 0.50-1.0% of the Smooth. These can also be added to your already-made harsh flavors; there should be little to no additional aging required (24 hours tops?). Keep some of the original mix as is... for comparison. This will help you better decide if it is going to be a flavor killer for you.

I know how frustrating DIY can be when nothing is tasting good; I hope you find what works for you. We're all pullin' for you

We are all different in our sensitivity and I really do have a more sensitive pallet. Also, I'd rather say lower too, in order to avoid anyone adding too much and killing their juice by accident, as likely what just happened.

I need to go back to not giving DIY advice.. lol.. I think it's too hard to be understood!

 

[Letitia]

I'm gonna leave the cap off and leave the bottle in the closed cabinet overnight, think that'll work?

Careful with breathing too long, flavors evaporate almost as fast as the alcohol. Two/three hours is generally long enough.

 

[IDJoel]

We are all different in our sensitivity and I really do have a more sensitive pallet. Also, I'd rather say lower too, in order to avoid anyone adding too much and killing their juice by accident, as likely what just happened.

I need to go back to not giving DIY advice.. lol.. I think it's too hard to be understood!

I completely respect your opinion; it is every bit as valid as anyone else's. I firmly believe the common vaping/DIY mantra that "we are all different." As such, I think the more opinions, the better, as any one of them may be the one to help that particular individual.

I know I have a fairly crappy palate. It has been abused with close to 4 decades of smoking. I have always enjoyed (and continue to enjoy) strong seasoning, foods, and beverages. I am pretty sure my tongue would put in for a transfer if it could. I probably taste half of what super-tasters likely do.

That doesn't make one of us right, or the other wrong; it simply means we are different. I understand, and agree with, your philosophy of hedging on the side of caution. I think that is just being prudent.

I apologize if I made you feel I was being dismissive, or critical, of your opinion, experience, and advice. For that; I am genuinely sorry. I only intended to share a different point of view from my own experience. I personally find your advise to be thoughtful, informative, and useful. And, I sincerely hope you don't stop sharing it with the rest of this wonderful community.

 

[Opinionated]

I completely respect your opinion; it is every bit as valid as anyone else's. I firmly believe the common vaping/DIY mantra that "we are all different." As such, I think the more opinions, the better, as any one of them may be the one to help that particular individual.

I know I have a fairly crappy palate. It has been abused with close to 4 decades of smoking. I have always enjoyed (and continue to enjoy) strong seasoning, foods, and beverages. I am pretty sure my tongue would put in for a transfer if it could. I probably taste half of what super-tasters likely do.

That doesn't make one of us right, or the other wrong; it simply means we are different. I understand, and agree with, your philosophy of hedging on the side of caution. I think that is just being prudent.

I apologize if I made you feel I was being dismissive, or critical, of your opinion, experience, and advice. For that; I am genuinely sorry. I only intended to share a different point of view from my own experience. I personally find your advise to be thoughtful, informative, and useful. And, I sincerely hope you don't stop sharing it with the rest of this wonderful community.

Oh I wasn't thinking you were being dismissive or critical..

I just never write in a way I'm understood. I mentioned mts vape wizard and mentioned that it was my belief that one drop in a 10ml tester would kill a juice.. you corrected that with the opinion that it should be used at .25 - .5% - which is fine, its close to what I said anyway if your looking at 20 drops per ml then .25% is one drop in a 20 ml bottle.. I said 2 drops in a 20ml bottle was too much, and you differed with that slightly.. that's fine, it's not a shocking difference anyway.

I agree with you that we all have different pallets and it's good if more than one person gives their thoughts and experience.

My so saying was due to the 5% additive used, and quoting me for the reason when I said half a percent would kill his juice.. that just leaves me feeling that I am unable to communicate what I would like in an effective manner.

Nothing to do with you..