Nicotine Delivery?

[Dan1911]

I've been using a joye 510 now for a little over a month and im having a hard time adjusting. I dont feel like im getting enough nicotine through the use... I have to use the e-cig almost constantly to keep me from using a analog. I have 26 mg juice from cignot and 16 mg juice from another supplier so I doubt its the mg level.

I drip almost exclusively and im wondering if thats the reason. I drip about 3 drops on my atomizer and it lasts for about 15 puffs for me untill It starts tasting burnt or nasty, and then I drip another 3.

Could it be that the nicotine burns up faster than the juice? I dunno. Im out of idea's. Should I be using some kind of cart mod to keep the atomizer freshly wet constantly?

Let me be a bit more specific - I can use my joye 510 constantly for a few hours and go through about 3 ml of juice and there's no nausea, no lightheadedness, nothing. I know its working because it keeps the cravings down, but not very well.

I was a smoker of a pack to 1 /1/2 packs a day before getting a vaporizer over a month ago and have been off analogs ever since.

 

[billo]

Based on some sketchy data on nicotine levels in blood, I have a personal theory that you would need to vape about 150 mg liquid to get the same nicotine per puff into your blood/brain. Perhaps even stronger.

However, this strength liquid starts to become dangerous when on the skin, etc.

So, it really is quite simple. If you vape 26 mg liquid you probably have to take six times as many puffs per hour to get the same nicotine as a cigarette.(150/26 =6 aprox.) I know vape a lot more puffs per day than I used to smoke. I think most people do.

This factor of six is just my best guess at this point. I wish someone had some better data !

( I personally vape about 45 mg liquid. Never had any feelings even approaching nicotine overdose. I also use a 510, but don't drip. Dripping does seem to make the vapor seem stronger.)

 

[CaptJay]

You may well be more addicted to the other chemicals that were in cigs than the nicotine part - plenty of people give up smoking (without vaping) or just vape and find they feel down, moody, or just 'missing something' they feel they need. That something is often (but not always) MAOIs.
Check out the smokeless tobacco forums part of ECF and have a look at some of the posts - you may find investing in SWEDISH SNUS (not the american version, the SWEDISH one, made in Sweden) is helpful. For many it helps them get over the 'hump', and they also find they need less nic as well (that not being hte part they were most hooked on to begin with) over time.
SNUS are little pouches you hold between your lips and gum - its is NOT dip or chew - you do not chew or spit this stuff; you just let it pass into your mucus membranes, like sucking a boiled sweet (but dont suck them).

I drip as well - 12mg nic for me - and I feel Im getting plenty of nic (sometimes too much as I tend to chain on nice flavors) but then again I wasnt self medicating on MAOIs in cigarettes either so I dont miss that part.

 

[quasimod]

I've been using a joye 510 now for a little over a month and im having a hard time adjusting. I dont feel like im getting enough nicotine through the use... I have to use the e-cig almost constantly to keep me from using a analog. I have 26 mg juice from cignot and 16 mg juice from another supplier so I doubt its the mg level...

I went through a very similar experience. Over the course of a couple of months, I moved up to 36 mg., bought some mods, then went to High-Voltage. Along the way, I found out a couple of things:

I needed to learn how to vape better. I know that sounds stupid, but your vaping technique makes a bit difference. Learn how to "direct inhale". Have you seen how much vapor those guys get in the videos? Not all of that is lighting. Look closely, and you will see that many of them are direct-inhaling. Blowing big clouds of vapor may seem superficial, but it makes a big psychological difference. The massive throat hit and nicotine fix are important, too. I cannot stress this "learn to vape better" concept enough. Try variations on everything from the initial button-push to the exhale, and stop trying to smoke it like a cigarette. Exhale through your nose (to absorb more nicotine).
Some people need help. Some use smokeless tobacco products (don't discount this out-of-hand) to help "ease off" of the tobacco, because there is more going on than just nicotine.

It's OK if it takes a couple of months to completely stop using tobacco. One day, I realized that I hadn't smoked in over a week. I think my last cigarette was a day or two after Christmas of '09. If I tried to quit, I failed. It was after I decided not to worry about it, and just reduce my smoking, that I succeeded.

I needed something to keep my hands busy. It's amazing how busy your hands can get when they aren't constantly fiddling with cigarettes.

I need different amounts of nicotine depending on time of day. 1st thing in the morning, I need a big 40 mg. or so vape-out. Later, 36 mg. is about right. Just before bed, I try to lower it as much as possible so I can get to sleep. 24 mg. is about the weakest I can get away with. Buy some high-nic DIY mix (like 100 mg. unflavored) so you can adjust your nic level better. Try different PG/VG ratios, they are both very cheap. Be cautious and conservative when trying higher nicotine levels, and pay attention to how it makes you feel. If you get a small, sharp pain behind your eyes, or feel like you swallowed some tobacco, you went too far.

Keep trying. Experiment. Relax, and don't throw the baby out with the bath-water. If it isn't perfect, take what you can get and try to make it better.

Good luck!

 

[UntamedRose]

One of the reasons it's so hard to quit smoking, using Any method is your body is addicted to more then just the Nic...There are withdrawals and it does take some time to get used too. Up your fluid intake, especially the water and juice to help flush that stuff out.

26mg is fine for a pack n half smoker, though you might consider buying a higher level. Trying that out for a while, if that does "help" then thats not the issue cut your nic level back again. (A really easy way to do this without wasting $, is to go to tasty vapor, get a 36mg flavor and grab a doubler. If the 36 works for ya, you can always grab unflavored with higher then 36mg later and use the doubler that way. If 36mg is to high, use the doubler to lower the nic levels. There are programed calculators around that will tell you exact amounts to add.)

Second check the, "library" section...there is a thread on the differences between..Nic withdraw and nic overdosing...the symptoms can be similar.

 

[smokingisbad]

Honestly, I am not sure if this has been mentioned but at times I went through this too. I would purchase 36mg juice, I vaped this for about a month and now am going back and forth from 18-24mg to 36mg. The 36mg gave me that extra nic kick that I was missing from cigarettes. GL!! Hope this helps.

 

[Happy Domino38]

Based on some sketchy data on nicotine levels in blood, I have a personal theory that you would need to vape about 150 mg liquid to get the same nicotine per puff into your blood/brain. Perhaps even stronger.

However, this strength liquid starts to become dangerous when on the skin, etc.

So, it really is quite simple. If you vape 26 mg liquid you probably have to take six times as many puffs per hour to get the same nicotine as a cigarette.(150/26 =6 aprox.) I know vape a lot more puffs per day than I used to smoke. I think most people do.

This factor of six is just my best guess at this point. I wish someone had some better data !

( I personally vape about 45 mg liquid. Never had any feelings even approaching nicotine overdose. I also use a 510, but don't drip. Dripping does seem to make the vapor seem stronger.)

Whoa, whoa, WHOA! Are you suggesting someone vapes at 150mg liquid here? You'd be DEAD. That simple!!

Holy crap, I'm shocked no one's commented on THAT one!

The nic content in liquid is mg per millimeter. Which means that, if you're vaping 36mg liquid, there is 36mg of nicotine in one millimeter of liquid!!

The highest mg most vendors will sell is 36mg's. I DO know of others that will go as high as 48mg, but there aren't many.

If you're not getting the satisfaction you were hoping for in quitting, look into some of the 'smokeless' alternatives but remember it's NOT the same delivery method as smoking analogs. There WILL be a 'rough patch' at the beginning, but it doesn't last long and it's not as 'rough' as most other methods are when quitting. If you feel you just HAVE to have a cigarette, HAVE ONE! It's not a RACE, you don't HAVE to quit analogs completely either!

I also agree that you may not be vaping PROPERLY. I wrote a guide for newbies that you can read HERE..

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/ecf-library/85612-newbies-proper-inhalation-technique.html

Good luck and I hope it helps!

 

[quasimod]

Whoa, whoa, WHOA! Are you suggesting someone vapes at 150mg liquid here? [...]

Wow, sorry I missed that. It looked like another "mg of vaping equals how many puffs of a cigarette" discussion, which I habitually ignore as irrelevant.

Reported it to mods, but in the meantime, DO NOT VAPE liquids that are meant to be diluted. DO NOT handle dangerous chemicals without proper care, instruction, knowledge, and safety equipment. Nicotine is dangerous if handled improperly. Nicotine overdose can kill you.

Since I'm no expert, here's a post that hits most of the highlights of the toxicity of nicotine as it relates to vaping. The new, improved Forum Search is awesome!

It would be nice if one of the experts could write a thorough discussion of this topic, and it could be "stickied" somewhere...

 

[Kate51]

Thanks for being on the ball, Domino38, this is craziness! I just posted this on another Thread, different question, same WARNING:

If you look at purity and ingredient labels on e-juices, you will see the nicotine is rated at 99.8% purity, sometimes a 99.9%.

Nicotine used in ECOpure is the purest available at 99.8%.

So that should answer you question about the purity, and it is mixed in VG or PG for your convenience at guaranteed levels of density, i.e., 12mg/ml, 24mg/ml, etc.
What the poster was trying to understand was the nicotine as used in cigarettes 'as free-base' or 'crack nicotine' refers more to the unknown chemicals introduced into the tobacco to get the highest-acting, most potent 'lung hit' for fastest absorbtion and highest reactive 'fix' for an addiction when used in combustion of tobacco.
The two uses are not the same at all, absorbtion from combustion much different than absorbtion from vaporized liquid. In e-juice you should know exactly the content, in a cigarette it can only be judged by the 'hit', as it is not listed on any available ingredient list on the pack itself.
Nicotine needs to be handled, stored, and ingested with utmost safety in mind, as it is highly toxic and poisonous in pure form, whether in cigarettes or in a bottle of juice, but notice the amount of nicotine in your juice is a much higher percentage than in a cigarette or a whole pack of cigarettes. Keep away from kids, pets, and any person never previously exposed to nicotine, 40-60mg of pure nicotine ingested in one dose can cause death in an adult! If you have a 20ml bottle of 12mg-nic juice laying around, that's 240mg of nicotine. Do the math. PLEASE do the safety! Remember, it can be absorbed through the skin, not just in your mouth, nose and throat. Wash with soap after handling or any spills, for example, before hugging your baby or your cat licking you fingers.

If people take the time to look learn and listen, there is a tremendous amount of information available on ECF:
Never be cavalier about using nicotine, it can kill. No amount of nicotine in vapor form will ever be comparable to smoking a cigarette, it just will not work to increase nicotine amount! The chemicals in burning tobacco kills people too!

 

[esibby]

Thanks for being on the ball, Domino38, this is craziness! I just posted this on another Thread, different question, same WARNING:

If people take the time to look learn and listen, there is a tremendous amount of information available on ECF:
Never be cavalier about using nicotine, it can kill. No amount of nicotine in vapor form will ever be comparable to smoking a cigarette, it just will not work to increase nicotine amount! The chemicals in burning tobacco kills people too!

I also suggest washing your hands IMMEDIATELY after coming in direct contact with liquid of any strength (wear gloves at all times if possible, you can find latex or vinyl gloves at most superstores and craft stores pretty cheap). I was refilling carts and testing some 10mg flavors and got some on my hands a few times during the day and didn't think anything of it, just washed my hands after I was done. Later on the next day I had a really bad headache and for no reason at all was feeling quite depressed(never really had this problem at all before so it worried me a bit), so i started doing a little research and found that nicotine withdraw symptoms can include both of those. I picked up my 510 and puffed on it for a bit and started feeling 100% better......and that was only 10mg juice.

It can't be stressed enough how adversly nicotine can affect the body when used improperly, so ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS take safety precautions when handling even premixed juice.

(side note: All is well now and everything has leveled out and I now understand just how important it is to stay safe handling things I'm new with/unsure about. )

 

[Elendil]

I know that there are just "theories" being discussed here, but there are some pretty high nic levels being tossed around in this thread. I am going to move this to a spot where newer folks are less likely to see it, but where vets can still discuss.

I only want to cautioneveryone to consider their wording carefully before posting.

 

[DVap]

At such a foolish (dare I say suicidal?) level as 150 mg, we would hope the user would become violently ill and stop before managing to do worse.. like catching a serious case of dead.

If a vaper finds they can't get satisfaction at 24 mg, then it's more than likely they're needing the "other" non-nicotine components of cigarette smoke. If you're one who can't get satisfaction from moderate eliquid nicotine levels, no amount of added nicotine is going to "scratch the itch". You're not craving more nicotine, you're craving something else and it's not more nicotine.

The Smokeless Tobacco forum is a good place to learn about snus and other alternatives that provide the additional tobacco components missing from nicotine eliquid.

If you like technical, experimental, and theoretical discussions, the you might check out some of my blog posts on the topic as well.

 

[SirVette]

..
If you like technical, experimental, and theoretical discussions, the you might check out some of my blog posts on the topic as well.

I'll second that. New guys should see DVap's posts on this.
I found them very helpful.

Thanks DVap!

 

[Kate51]

Thanks Elendil, when someone says "sketchy data on nicotine levels" on ECF it makes me crazy!!
Me thinks they just haven't looked at/for any.
Once again, saner minds to the rescue.

 

[Katya]

If a vaper finds they can't get satisfaction at 24 mg, then it's more than likely they're needing the "other" non-nicotine components of cigarette smoke. If you're one who can't get satisfaction from moderate eliquid nicotine levels, no amount of added nicotine is going to "scratch the itch". You're not craving more nicotine, you're craving something else and it's not more nicotine.

Amen. This piece of information shoud be given to every e-cig user in the beginning. I've seen so much advice given to newbies to increase their nic level if they are not fully satisfied. I've read posts from people who report vaping homebrews with 48-56 mg nicotine to a point where they no longer want to smoke an analog...

In my case, increasing nic level above 18 mg resulted in headaches, nausea and dizziness (I was an ultra lights, 1 pack/day smoker). I knew I needed something else. I now use snus and dissolvables (lowest levels available) and vape for fun (15-4 mg) and that combination works for me well.

 

[quasimod]

I disagree. I smoked 3 packs of Kool Filter Kings per day. I was frustrated until I moved to 36 mg., with the occasional shot of 40 mg. or so (especially 1st thing in the morning). That changed everything for me. No headaches, no nausea, just finally some satisfaction.

On the other hand, I DO agree that higher doses of nicotine are not always the answer, and shouldn't automatically be the first step a person takes when they're having trouble. Nothing will take the place of learning to vape well.

Higher nic or high-voltage may not be the answer for everyone, but neither is smokeless tobacco.


EDIT: Sorry, I always think of something else after I click the button.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that all of these potential solutions should be given to people having problems, so they can make their own decisions about what to try first.

For example: I actually had no idea that anything existed above 24 mg. when I started vaping. Had I not found out anything different, I would be a smoker now. I've also read posts where new members have been told that vaping 38 mg. is terribly dangerous, and 48 mg. would be lethal.

 

[Kate51]

I was a 2-3 pack a day smoker, but the 24mg juice kept me quite happy. I was starving to death, but I knew it was something that would work through, and it did, after about six weeks or so I was a happy camper. Maybe a higher nic would have helped me put that darned thing down once in awhile!

 

[Katya]

I disagree. I smoked 3 packs of Kool Filter Kings per day. I was frustrated until I moved to 36 mg., with the occasional shot of 40 mg. or so (especially 1st thing in the morning). That changed everything for me. No headaches, no nausea, just finally some satisfaction.

On the other hand, I DO agree that higher doses of nicotine are not always the answer, and shouldn't automatically be the first step a person takes when they're having trouble. Nothing will take the place of learning to vape well.

Higher nic or high-voltage may not be the answer for everyone, but neither is smokeless tobacco.

I don't think we really disagree. What I was trying to say is that when you reach a certain point where you feel sick and your heart is pounding and you're getting dizzy and your palms are sweating and you still crave an analog, than increasing nic level becomes useless and may even be dangerous. That point is different for different people depending on their nicotine tolerance. For me, 24 mg was the limit. I was choking and I still wanted a cigarette. I know that increasing nic levels has helped a lot of people.

 

[quasimod]

Haha, there I go again: I wasted so much time editing my final thoughts into my first post (and eating, getting another beer, etc.), that my edit came in after other comments were posted. Sorry about that.

One day I'll learn to "Preview Post" for a bit, before submitting.

 

[DVap]

quasi...

Three packs a day is probably a bit higher than I was thinking! I probably didn't have the ex "smoking professional" in mind. You and Tropical Bob really should go bowling.

I guess the model I wrote up in one of my blog posts still holds.. you'd be high tobacco nicotine additive tendency & low "tobacco other" addictive tendency.