Ordered some NF organics and might be a waste

[skoot]

I have to agree. Especially around the diacetyl labeling. They are under no requirement to list every molecule of every ingredient, nor should they. If the diacetyl is naturally occurring it is in extremely tiny amounts anyway. You don't see fructose listed on a bottle of 100% apple juice, even though it's loaded with it. We're co-opting these flavors and doing our own due diligence regarding ingredients, which is just as it should be.

 

[Schnarph]

I did not have any intention of starting trouble with fans of Nature's Flavors' flavors. As I said, I am sure they could make my coffee taste great! I don't even think that whatever amount of diacetyl their flavors do contain are necessarily harmful to e-cig users that vape their flavors. However, they are fully aware that many companies with 'vape(s), vapor(s), e-cig' etc. in their company name buy their products. Their market should be no more driven by e-cigs than LorAnn Flavors, which BTW have this on their website:

"Do any of your flavors contain diacetyl? No, none of LorAnn's flavors contain diacetyl."

I have another one:

Flavourart S.r.l.
Via Carmine, 39/U
28047 Oleggio (NO)
Italia
Certified area
Whole site
Field of activity
Development, manufacturing and sale of food
flavours and flavours and E-liquids for electronic
cigarettes and personal vaporizers.
Standard
ISO 9001:2008
Quality Management System

I would say the proof is in the pudding flavor, but NF won't say if it is or not, they just insert the disclaimer. If there is any other e-liquid flavor company apart from Nature's Flavors that uses a disclaimer so specifically against using their products for e-cigs, I am not the only e-cig user that would appreciate the knowledge. We should try to be the most informed consumers as we can hope to be, under the circumstances.

 

[Shilo]

Here is the thing: e-cigs are chump change to NF, they were not created for us, and their market is not us. It is annoying that they initially embraced e-cigs and then walked it back, but whatever. Maybe this happened when the popcorn lung thing initially blew up, idk.

Regardless, logic says for them (and us too) that diacetyl may be dangerous to inhale, and we did not know this initially. Also that we do not know many of the ingredients in flavorings or whether any others are dangerous for inhalation. Perhaps in a year we will find that peach notes are toxic, or in 2 years that strawberry flavoring causes scabies. NF concluded that rather than struggling and being potentially broadsided by these discoveries it was best to disavow inhalation of flavorings entirely, and thus their lives are made much easier and their liability reduced to nil. In truth I would do the same, were I in that position.

More importantly, NF's market is NOT driven by e-cigs, and their products are NOT designed with inhalation in mind. Why would they post warnings!? Many visitors would not stop to read the full text and then conclude "oh this diacetyl is only bad for inhalation so I, flavoring my coffee, am fine." No, many would look once and say "OH NOES A WARNING WHAT IS DIACETYL IT MUST BE POISON I WILL NOT FLAVOR MY COFFEE WITH POISON!" People do not think rationally about these things - it is the same as those folks who say "PG is an ingredient in antifreeze therefore PG will kill you", or "Vaping is the same as smoking because nicotine".

Jack Daniels does not have warnings against putting whiskey in your eyes, or other cavities; though this is dangerous, and though it does work, it is not what their product was designed for. They know it happens, but it is not their business nor their responsibility. NF has no obligation to post inhalation warnings.

Sorry to hear we are chump change My point is before questions came up they were all peachy keen to open a website that they said was dedicated to the ecig community newportflavors.com do not know its its still open but this was 3 to 4 short months ago tops. Why do such a thing if you don't feel you have to answer any questions on your product? Diacetyl aside, I want to know from them why my Cappuccino and several people's other flavors have a sizeable crusty white sediment on the bottom of the bottles within a week's time---see my posted pics. Emails were not answered on the subject. Why do some of the bottles say refrigerate and others do not? Its not unreasonable for any consumer to have a question and though we may be chump change I am sure the juice vendors who buy from them add up to a pretty penny

 

[Schnarph]

Shilo, it is newportflavours.com, you were missing a 'u'. They use an identical disclaimer as their parent company, Nature's Flavors, check the bottom of the page under terms-conditions. And yes, let's forget about the diacetyl. That dead horse has been thoroughly beaten. I still think they have the worst policies currently in practice for a company that makes good money from juice vendors. This information is too easy to find, I must be missing something. Seriously, I have only had 3 hours of sleep in the past 72 hours, I can't be thinking clearly. Logic is failing me, or something.

 

[Shilo]

Get some rest Schnarp I meant no hard feelings either its just frustration. Thanks in this regard that you took the time to check all the sites. Everyone will just have to decide for themselves how they feel about buying the flavors.

 

[Racehorse]

Some NF do contain diacetyl. Incidentally that is why I like NF so much... but it is only the custard/buttery flavors. Butterscotch, butter rum, caramel cream, and vanilla cream definitely have diacetyl. Bavarian cream sounds like it should contain it, but honestly I have a zealous love for diacetyl and I don't taste any in the BC. Peanut butter and cookie dough miiiiiiiight have it, most likely cookie dough if anything, but I have not tried those. The fruits, florals, and other non-buttery flavors should not contain diacetyl. It is a custard flavor, meant to taste buttery - no butter taste = no diacetyl. Diacetyl has a strong and unique taste: learn what that taste is and you can taste pretty well what does or doesn't have it - it does taste like popcorn butter! So good!

it sounds like you, the customer, are trying to figure out what NF flavors contain diacetyls, etc. If a company can't tell me that, and spell it out, then I don't buy from them. Very simple. It is their job to do that.

Flavour Art and TFA will tell you these things about the products they sell. Flavorings found not ultimately safe for vaping are noted in their product lineup

 

[SouthernBliss]

I noticed on the NF web site the other day that quite a few flavors list no diacetyl versions specifically. Does anyone know if that is the version that is being resold in smaller lots at High desert and ecig express?

 

[DeeDee1234]

High desert vapes website for the BUTTER flavor of NF
Ingredients: Water, Organic Ethyl Alcohol, Natural and Organic Plant and Vegetable Extracts
Comes in a 3mL bottle size by default.

Doesn't mention one wayor the other that I can find

 

[JD1]

....... Seriously looking for PG free flavors here!!

Not pg free as they have a pg base, but the VZ-SC gourmet line is very concentrated and you'd only need to add a few drops to your base. Just a thought.

 

[SouthernBliss]

I was trying to sort out some things in my head tonight over on the natures flavors site and was looking at the ingredients for the no diacetyl versions and one of the things I noticed was that the flavors I was looking at had sugar listed as the sweetener. I'm going to guess that these versions are newer listings and it is possible that the other sweet seeming flavors have always had some sugar or that they process to remove the diacetyl requires sugar. Either way would it be enough sugar to worry about using and cloging things up? Has anyone had trouble with that liquids that contain Kona cream or Bavarian cream and so on?

 

[echofinder]

Well, as this thread has made clear, I use the diacetyl-containing flavorings, so I cannot speak to the newer offerings. However, after running 15+ ml through a carto tank I will notice some sediment in the tank - a dark ring sitting in the bottom which will re-mix into the juice if I shake it about. This has been true of butterscotch/butter rum & caramel cream. After awhile this will affect the draw of the tank, or more commonly make the juice taste burnt, but the effect on carto lifespan is negligible IMO. These juices will run 20-30ml through a carto without trouble, usually. IDK if this is sugar or not, though that would seem most likely if I had to guess.

 

[SouthernBliss]

Thank you for the info echofinder.

 

[DrewGrimey]

Well, as this thread has made clear, I use the diacetyl-containing flavorings, so I cannot speak to the newer offerings. However, after running 15+ ml through a carto tank I will notice some sediment in the tank - a dark ring sitting in the bottom which will re-mix into the juice if I shake it about. This has been true of butterscotch/butter rum & caramel cream. After awhile this will affect the draw of the tank, or more commonly make the juice taste burnt, but the effect on carto lifespan is negligible IMO. These juices will run 20-30ml through a carto without trouble, usually. IDK if this is sugar or not, though that would seem most likely if I had to guess.

Reminds me, I was trying someones recipe that was using NF flavors and after taking long draws I was getting a really burnt taste... Figured it was a bad coil so I just made another one, never had the problem of juice tasting burnt since I use cottons for my wick and cotton does a great job at absorbing liquid.

The liquid was good while it lasted but the whole burning thing and diacetyl thing really put me off on using NF

 

[SouthernBliss]

At this point it just all makes my head spin.

 

[Iffy]

At this point it just all makes my head spin.

Maybe lower your nic?

 

[Racehorse]

**For inhalation safety reasons none of our e-liquids contain Diacetyl"

That is as close as you are going to get. I suppose if you get popcorn lung vaping their juice you might be able to sue them for the couple of grand their company might be worth.

I am not really worried about getting popcorn lung, but if a flavor company knowingly has naturally occurring diacetyl in their products but does not want to label which ones, I would buy from somebody else. Knowing that many E-cig vendors are buying the product that contains diacetyl to use in an electronic cigarette, and deciding to hide a disclaimer away at the end of the FAQ as a CYA tactic is the ugly side of capitalism. I am aware of the proprietary nature of flavor chemistry, but labeling products that contain naturally occurring diacetyl wouldn't be giving away any trade secrets. As a vaper, I find their previous and current stance on this subject to be very rude.

You are correct, Schnarph, and if a juice company or flavoring company is not "adding" diacetyls to their product then they do not have to list it as an ingredient.

Which is why I do find some of the "PG Free" and "100% VG" vendor lists to be rather misleading in the sense that if they are using 100% pg free flavorings, then they are probably using flavorings that do contain, by nature, trace amounts of diacetyls and other molecules that may not be 100% safe for vaping purposes.

People see the word "organic" and they automatically think that is purer or better, but as we all know, mother nature puts all kinds of things into the world that is not good for human injestion.

So I do find these 100% VG lists to be only useful to a point. Esp. if people are not using due dilligence to determine if the flavors are safe for vaping, or at least considered as such, by the flavoring company themselves.

Obviously, Natures Flavors doesn't consider some of their own flavorings to be safe for inhaling, and as such, I will not inhale them.