Poker - Cards Rule Question

[Jman8]

This is with regards to a non-traditional poker game that I play with friends. I recently did google search on it and could not find the exact game we play, nor even one like it. That very much surprises me. I've played the game now for about 5 years and have had almost no problems understanding or explaining it, but a situation arose in our poker group and has not been resolved. I'm hoping others might have some insights to overcome the problem.

The game, as we call it, is Bullets. It is 3 card poker, and players decide to stay in the hand by holding or dropping all their cards after dealer counts to 3. I'm hoping reader of this post understands basic poker rankings, such that I don't have to be too long winded here. Essentially, straits and flushes do not count.

Bullets, as we play it, also includes wild cards, but these cards are also played as trump. I'm very familiar with Bridge and trump, and if you aren't, it is likely unnecessary.

Nines and threes are wild. A nine is the highest card and trumps all other cards in the deck. 3's are second highest, and trumps all other cards but nines.

So, best hand in the game is 3 nines. Whereas 3 threes would be the 4th best hand. Hopefully, the reader can figure out why that is, otherwise this post would be even longer than it is.

When a player has a hand that is not all wilds, then it is generally based on traditional poker rankings. So 3 Aces beats 3 fives. Or pair of kings with a jack, beats pair of kings with a 4. The somewhat tricky part is that a 9-K-5 hand would beat a K-K-A hand, as the 9 is deemed that powerful in that hand.

The problem we are currently facing and have strong disagreement on is with regards to these type of hands:

9-A-A
3-3-A

Which do you think is higher? And why?

I will just note that there are currently 3 answers to this from our group and they are all the obvious ones:
1 - 9-A-A is higher
2 - 3-3-A is higher
3 - the hands are equal (tied)

I'd love to think there is a logical way to determine the answer, but I can see arguments for all 3 answers and know which one makes most sense to me, but am not 100% sure that it is most sensible / logical. So, interested in what other card players would say, and why.

Thanks!

 

[erratum]

9-A-A due to the trump

The 9s and 3s do not trump the Aces, they are wild to the Aces, so both hands are 3 Aces (tie) but the 9 trumps the 3, so the 9-A-A wins the pot.

 

[Kent C]

Assuming from what was said the order of strength of hands:

999 - highest
993
933
333 - 4th highest

That means that 333 beats 99A. So if three 3's beats two 9's along with any other card, to hold that consistency, then two 3's and one other card, should beat one 9 and any other 2 cards (other than a 3).

33A is the winner, unless specific power levels for the 9 and 3 are established in a different manner.

 

[Jman8]

The dispute arose in our group because one person said what @erratum is saying. Prior to this, it is believed we were playing by what @Kent C is saying. I say believed because since the matter has arose to question, I haven't observed it occurring again (surprisingly) and thus it seems very rare. Like in other games we play with wilds (non trump), there are rules on what happens if someone gets 5 wild cards. There is a split in thought about this, and yet in the many years we've been playing (more than 10), it has never come up.

Anyway, I say it is a tie. My reasoning is the 9 would beat a 3. Then from the 9 hand, an A would lose to a 3, and the last cards would be A by both players.

@erratum says the 9 would trump the 3, but not sure if this would mean 9 trumps 2 threes, and so I'd want to see that case presented.

@Kent C says two 3's and another card (i.e. Ace) should beat one 9 and say 2 other aces, because 3 threes beats 2 nines and say an Ace. I find it hard to argue against this, except when I realize that 9 holds special power over 3. IMO, a nine is equal to 2 threes, but not sure how I arrive at that other than 3*3 = 9. And the fact that 9K5 would beat 3KJ also shows that 9 has enough power to take traditional poker hand rankings and make it so the 3 would be significantly less powerful than the 9, making the kicker (third card) a non-factor.

So, I remain a bit confused, and currently lean toward dealer decides, and explains beforehand. Reality in last few weeks is that we may have up to 3 different versions of the game going on, based on who's dealing, and yet the scenario in question mysteriously never has come up again.

For the heck of it, I will just note that last week, during a hold'em game, with no wilds, someone did manage to get a royal flush (using both hole cards) which I have also not seen in a very long time.

 

[Kent C]

IMO, a nine is equal to 2 threes

It that were true, then 99A should beat 333.

 

[spartanstew]

I would concur with Kent.

It's the only "logical" explanation.

It has already been established that multiple 3's "trumps" a lesser number of 9's (333 beats 99A). Therefore, 33A must beat 9AA.

 

[Jman8]

It that were true, then 99A should beat 333.

Not really, cause of the grouping.

Would be like saying, 9-3-5, would beat 3-3-K. The 9 in this grouping is obviously more powerful than any other card, the 3 equal to best card of the other hand, and then only 5 and K are competing, so if not beating it, they'd be tied.

I'm saying 9 is equal to 2 three's if the grouping is the same ranking (as noted in OP).

Also multiple 3's doesn't automatically beat single 9, such as:

9-A-A (beats)
3-3-2

 

[Jman8]

I'll also just note that I looked and looked on google for similar games but couldn't find any that has 2 wild cards that were both trump, where one of those beats the other. There are trump poker games, but most to all of what I found was along lines of one suit trumps another, but not one card ranking trumps another, which then also trumps the rest of the cards.

Because the actual power of the 9 is undefined, it really makes for a bunch of inconsistencies in the game if looking at a various scenarios. Thus, I'm not so sure I can explain this game, as the particular scenario in OP leads to other inconsistencies. 3-3-y is always going to lose to 9-x-x, as long as x is higher than whatever card is left over on the first hand (and assuming x and y aren't wild). Plus, whenever a new person plays with us, they are confused by idea that 9-A-4 beats 3-A-K, but again this goes to power 9 has over every other card in the deck.

Also wilds can lose to non wild hands. So 3-3-5 would lose to 8-8-8. Thus multiple wilds aren't necessarily more power, while 9 is for sure more powerful than 3.

 

[erratum]

Does not compute. Lol

As far as I'm aware from my poker days, you simply start with the highest hand your cards can make & in case if a tie, high card wins...then next high card. So the tie is the 3 aces both hands show. The high card 9 wins & never gets to the second high card 3.

or less

 

[Robino1]

Nines and threes are wild. A nine is the highest card and trumps all other cards in the deck. 3's are second highest, and trumps all other cards but nines.

With this explanation.....

So, best hand in the game is 3 nines. Whereas 3 threes would be the 4th best hand.

This one makes .....

The problem we are currently facing and have strong disagreement on is with regards to these type of hands:

9-A-A
3-3-A

this one have no sense....

How does the 333 be 4th best hand?

My brain now is killing me!

I vote tie just so that no one else gets a brain hemorrhage

 

[Kent C]

There are trump poker games, but most to all of what I found was along lines of one suit trumps another, but not one card ranking trumps another, which then also trumps the rest of the cards.

In Euchre (Midwest form of Whist with a 'twist' ) - once a suit is declared trump, then the Jack of that suit is the "Right Bower" - trumps all including the Ace of that suit, and the Jack of the same color in another suit is the "Left Bower" trumps all but the Right Bower. eg. Clubs are trump, Jack of Clubs is R. Bower, Jack of Spades is L. Bower

 

[Jman8]

Does not compute. Lol

As far as I'm aware from my poker days, you simply start with the highest hand your cards can make & in case if a tie, high card wins...then next high card. So the tie is the 3 aces both hands show. The high card 9 wins & never gets to the second high card 3.

or less

What is noted as option 1 in OP, is the one I've been least likely to accept. But, with what you are saying and what is true for most poker games, is accurate. It also helps explain why 9-K-4 beats 3-K-J.

With that said, I still lean toward dealer decides which way to play cause the multiple wilds thing I think is still in play (for debate) and in this moment I'm not up for figuring out scenarios that would test logic of option 1.

 

[Kent C]

I'll also just note that I looked and looked on google for similar games but couldn't find any that has 2 wild cards that were both trump, where one of those beats the other. There are trump poker games, but most to all of what I found was along lines of one suit trumps another, but not one card ranking trumps another, which then also trumps the rest of the cards.

Because the actual power of the 9 is undefined, it really makes for a bunch of inconsistencies in the game if looking at a various scenarios. Thus, I'm not so sure I can explain this game, as the particular scenario in OP leads to other inconsistencies. 3-3-y is always going to lose to 9-x-x, as long as x is higher than whatever card is left over on the first hand (and assuming x and y aren't wild). Plus, whenever a new person plays with us, they are confused by idea that 9-A-4 beats 3-A-K, but again this goes to power 9 has over every other card in the deck.

Also wilds can lose to non wild hands. So 3-3-5 would lose to 8-8-8. Thus multiple wilds aren't necessarily more power, while 9 is for sure more powerful than 3.

No way would I play that game for money... and likely not even for 'fun'

 

[Jman8]

In Euchre (Midwest form of Whist with a 'twist' ) - once a suit is declared trump, then the Jack of that suit is the "Right Bower" - trumps all including the Ace of that suit, and the Jack of the same color in another suit is the "Left Bower" trumps all but the Right Bower. eg. Clubs are trump, Jack of Clubs is R. Bower, Jack of Spades is L. Bower

I haven't played euchre in so long, but used to love that game. You are right that it is another game where card ranking does have higher trump value than merely suits. Though is not a game that I would ever try to deal during a night of poker.

Didn't realize until I read your post how much Jack Bower sounds like (24's) Jack Bauer, who obviously trumps everyone else on that show.