President Obama - what does it mean for foreign affairs?

[Soot]

TropicalBob - I thought it was just us guys in Belfast that tried to keep politics out of polite conversation .

I've no problem with kk expressing his/her views. I find US perspectives interesting (particularly the right wing) - I rarely agree with them but it at least prompts me to check why I do think the way I do. Just sometimes I find they've a valid point.

 

[TropicalBob]

Sadly, it's not just Belfast. The last candidate I really wanted to see as President (RFK) was assassinated. His brother (JFK), a President, was too. Too many Americans, fanned by rabid rhetoric from radio talk show hosts, still think killing the "enemy" is the answer. There are some very sick people in the States, as there are everywhere, I guess.

I view the e-cig forum as a place to escape the insanity of political extremists. I can get that just by tuning in Rush Limbaugh or watching Fox News.

Oh well, we do have free speech. And I will exercise my freedom not to read any more Obama bashing here.

 

[Soot]

Fox news always increased my cigarette consumption! On US election day I paid them a special visit - I rarely tune it to propaganda channels - but I just couldn't resist. It was hilarious!

 

[m1sterlurk]

Sadly, it's not just Belfast. The last candidate I really wanted to see as President (RFK) was assassinated. His brother (JFK), a President, was too. Too many Americans, fanned by rabid rhetoric from radio talk show hosts, still think killing the "enemy" is the answer. There are some very sick people in the States, as there are everywhere, I guess.

I view the e-cig forum as a place to escape the insanity of political extremists. I can get that just by tuning in Rush Limbaugh or watching Fox News.

Oh well, we do have free speech. And I will exercise my freedom not to read any more Obama bashing here.

Political extremists find their way into every forum of any size regardless of subject matter, and really it's up to the admin to strike a balance between totally clamping down on anything remotely political (which will alienate a lot of people who just like to talk about politics in a civil manner) and allowing totally free speech (in which case some people will start spouting some of the craziest **** you've ever heard, alienating more moderate members).

I know this from experience. I used to run a music forum back in 2004, and made a sub-forum for politics so I could take a more "free speech" approach. When I started to try to clamp down on some of the more extreme right-wing elements (like people who would say that the Holocaust didn't happen or thought that all Chinese people should be exterminated), they would accuse me of showing liberal bias and hating America...I quit caring and the forum basically decayed until I gave it to somebody else.

 

[kkimmons]

Gashin, I could not agree more. Rorschach, your argument is flawed regarding the G8 and the IAEA inspections. Iran has no business possessing nuclear power. Russia offered to process their uranium for nuclear power plants. Iran would only get the low grade uranium for use in a nuclear power plants and Russia would tightly control the spent fuel so it could not be processed further. Iran refused. The G8 countries are not radical Islamic countries supporting terrorism. The G8 countries have not threatened to wipe Israel off the map. The G8 counties do not deny the Holocaust that took place during WW2. The G8 counties do not try to kill individuals because they are not Muslim. The G8 countries do not stone women to death because they were raped. The G8 countries believe in the right to freedom and to live as you wish with out being persecuted. You see there is a huge difference between Iran and the G8. Iran believes in the strict Sharia law where Muslims who convert to Christianity have to flee Iran or be put to death. Don't even mention if you are bi, lesbian or gay. If you are discovered to be bi, lesbian or gay you are dragged out of your house and stoned or hung. Don't even think about smoking or drinking. I could go on and on about the human atrocities that go on in Iran. Enjoy the freedoms you have because the Iranians don't. Wow - isn't Iran fantastic - NOT! Hey lets give a radical Islamic country the ability to make nuclear fuel, enrich it so they can make thermonuclear devices. I don't freaking think so! Iran has no business with the capacity to enrich nuclear fuel much less nuclear power.

 

[Psyclown]

I personally don't think that on most levels ANY president could do worse for this country than Bush did.

The only big problem I have with Obama is his rabid anti-gun stance. The 2nd amendment is basically our insurance policy. No matter how bad things get, it becomes not only our right but our duty to "throw off the yoke of oppression" and set things to right. Coupled with the fact that he is a socialist, if he succeeds in disarming everyone things have the potential to get very bad indeed. Disarmament is historically the first step toward tyranny. From ancient Japan (hence them learning to use farm tools for martial arts) through WW2 when the Jews were unable to defend themselves after giving up their arms. I don't want a 10 page essay, so I'll stop on that subject before I ramble more.

Anyway, it's just my 2 cents and as TBob said you don't care what I think and I don't care what you do. My humble opinion is that politics are simply a charade anyway that help people sleep at night while they continue to do the same things that they've done since we lived in tribes. I can't say anything more clever than the quote that's on all my posts, so I'll just end with that.

 

[Soot]

Psyclown - what in Obama's politics makes him 'socialist'?

 

[Psyclown]

Mostly the universal health care idea and his view that we should have compulsory military service between 18-25.

Like I said though, I'll give anything a whirl as long as long as I get to keep my insurance policy if things get silly.

 

[Soot]

Obama is in favour of bringing in compulsory military service? To serve for 7 years?!

It's the first I've heard of it - though I suppose it's one way of phasing in universal health care . 26-32 year-olds next!

If universal heath care is socialism - viva la revolution!

 

[Psyclown]

Actually from what I've heard he only wants to mandate 3 months of service. It's not the amount of time that gets me, just the forcing of the issue. Granted we have a draft system (however dormant), but it is reserved for troop shortages only. I'm sure that like stop loss and similar programs that term of service could be extended indefinitely if you are "needed."

I really don't mind the health care other than that I never go to the hospital for anything. I'm sure there will be hefty taxes for that and many other things. It's to be expected, he's a Democrat.

Just to clarify, I don't support either party because I think they both represent ridiculous extremes. At times it's like watching little children argue. One will do the exact opposite just to spite the other, it's madness.

Guess you can't please everyone.

 

[Zach]

You're wrong, he is not going to mandate military service, but maybe community service:

Obama and Biden will call on citizens of all ages to serve. They'll set a goal that all middle school and high school students engage in 50 hours of community service a year, and develop a plan for all college students who engage in 100 hours of community service to receive a fully-refundable tax credit of $4,000 for their education. Obama and Biden will encourage retiring Americans to serve by improving programs available for individuals over age 55, while at the same time promoting youth programs such as Youth Build and Head Start.

From here: America Serves | Change.gov: The Obama-Biden Transition Team

Since he is gonna be the president, maybe you should learn what he actually is all about. He's not a bad guy.

 

[yo han]

...so I think this election has revealed the decline in American desire to be a superpower.

Thank god for that!

 

[Psyclown]

I wouldn't put anything past someone who feels that the government has a right to force people to do whatever they feel needs to be done. I may have misread his plan for compulsory service, so I'll own up to that.

As I stated previously though, the only huge issue I have is his rabid anti-gun stance. Once a people have been disarmed, it has been proven throughout history and across the globe that governments abuse their power.

The whole of civilization is a house of cards, and people are no different now than they were a thousand years ago. Torture, murder, rape, and every other form of horrific violence have not gone away and probably never will. We have lots more gadgets and think of ourselves as being far more sophisticated, yet we still have the same fundamental issues that we've dealt with since the dawn off time.

Instead of dungeons we have Guantanamo. Instead of the Praetorean Guard or Vigiles, we have Police. Our kings have been renamed as Presidents. We are not and never have been a Democracy, we are a Republic. This is not a new form of government by any means.

As for this president, when it comes to our defense rights he is a RADICAL.

[SIZE=+3]R[/SIZE]efused to sign the brief supporting an individual Second Amendment right in the Heller case.
[SIZE=+3]A[/SIZE]gainst Right-to-Carry. (Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, 4/2/08; Chicago Tribune, 9/15/04)

[SIZE=+3]D[/SIZE]irector, Joyce Foundation—one of the most anti-gun foundations in America. (Politico)

[SIZE=+3]"I[/SIZE] think it's a scandal that this president [Bush] did not authorize a renewal of the assault weapons ban." (Illinois Senate Debate #3: Barack Obama vs. Alan Keyes, 10/21/04)

[SIZE=+3]"C[/SIZE]linging" to guns—how Obama described "bitter" gun owners at a San Francisco fundraiser.

[SIZE=+3]A[/SIZE]mmunition ban supporter. Obama voted to ban almost all rifle ammunition commonly used for hunting and sport shooting. (United States Senate, S. 397, vote 217, 7/29/05)

[SIZE=+3]L[/SIZE]imiting self-defense. Obama voted to allow the prosecution of people who us a firearm for self-defense in their homes. (Illinois Senate, S.B. 2165, vote 20, 3/25/04)



I'm not "one of those guys" who has every color of NRA hat, a backyard bomb shelter, and runs around playing soldier on the weekends. What I am is someone who recognizes a simple fact that if anyone has a problem with you being secure, they are probably up to something. I wouldn't hire someone who wanted to handle my finances on the condition that they never be monitored.



You should read a book entitled Unintended Consequences. The author is John Ross, and you can cross reference the historic points referenced for a new perspective on your beloved government. To quote Will Rogers again, "You should support your country all the time, and your government when it

deserves it."

I won't post on this particular thread again because I well and truly believe that when it comes to politics or religion any "debate" is an exercise in futility. I have no disrespect at all for anyone who disagrees with my views and opinions because that's all they are: my opinion.

All of this is off topic anyway, as this was started for discussion on foreign policy. I'm cautiously optimistic there only because I don't think that much of anything could make the world at large hate America more than they already do. We attempt to play big brother to the world and make everyone fall in line. I personally find that amusing since we're supposed to be based on freedom. I consider myself a patriot and believe that people who would call me otherwise simply can't make the distinction between the values of our country and the people who currently run it.

America is an ideal. It is not a president, nor a branch of government. It's a way of life envisioned by people who were tired of most of the same oppressive practices that our current government now seems happy to embrace. We've become the Jehova's Witnesses of freedom. We show up at your door and tell you all about how you're living the wrong way, and I think a lot of people are sick of it. (No offense to anyone who IS a Jehovas Witness, my mother is one and I was only using it as an analogy).

At the risk of being thought of as Pithy Phrase Warrior, I'll close with one from good ol' Ben Franklin himself: "Those who would sacrifice a little liberty for a little security deserve neither, and will lose both."

 

[Bertrand]

Courtesy xkcd.

 

[kkimmons]

First of all well, stated Psyclown. As far as Obama goes he is a far left liberal who believes the government is the answer to all of our problems. Universal health care in socialist countries are failures. Nothing is perfect but the USA has the best health care system in the world. I do not want the government mandating what care I can and can not have. When doctors are paid by the government it is a set fee. It has been proven time and time again when doctors are paid a straight fee the quality of care takes a serious nose dive. Today we can chose the doctor we want to see, tomorrow under the government we are told who we see. Universal health care sucks. Regarding wealth, if I go out and bust my ... trying to earn 2 dollars I do not need the government taking one of my dollars to give it to someone who cares not to go out and work and earn his own 2 dollars. It is called redistribution of wealth. Let the lazy sot go out and work for a living just like I do. I could go on and on regarding this issue but I won't. Remember the government is not your friend and not the answer to your problems. You have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. We are free to make our own choices.

 

[Dr. Russell Fell]

First of all well, stated Psyclown. As far as Obama goes he is a far left liberal who believes the government is the answer to all of our problems. Universal health care in socialist countries are failures. Nothing is perfect but the USA has the best health care system in the world. I do not want the government mandating what care I can and can not have. When doctors are paid by the government it is a set fee. It has been proven time and time again when doctors are paid a straight fee the quality of care takes a serious nose dive. Today we can chose the doctor we want to see, tomorrow under the government we are told who we see. Universal health care sucks. Regarding wealth, if I go out and bust my ... trying to earn 2 dollars I do not need the government taking one of my dollars to give it to someone who cares not to go out and work and earn his own 2 dollars. It is called redistribution of wealth. Let the lazy sot go out and work for a living just like I do. I could go on and on regarding this issue but I won't. Remember the government is not your friend and not the answer to your problems. You have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. We are free to make our own choices.

I agree with the whole part about the government is not your friend, but everything else - not so much.

I love this forum for what it offers in the realm of electronic cigarettes, but as far as espousing political beliefs and government critique, I'll go elsewhere thankyouverymuch.

 

[cucurucho]

Universal health care in socialist countries are failures. Nothing is perfect but the USA has the best health care system in the world. I do not want the government mandating what care I can and can not have. When doctors are paid by the government it is a set fee. It has been proven time and time again when doctors are paid a straight fee the quality of care takes a serious nose dive. Today we can chose the doctor we want to see, tomorrow under the government we are told who we see. Universal health care sucks.

I'm not normally one to get involved in political discussions, but I couldn't really let this slide. I live in a country with a universal health care system. Your fears about the government controlling what sort of care you can have are completely unfounded. I can't speak much for other countries, although I know the UK has a similar system, but here we have 'Medicare', which provides basic cover to all citizens and permanent residents. I'll direct you to Medicare's wikipedia page for what exactly is covered and how the fee structures work (doctors can still charge as much as they want). Having Universal health care does not mean the gov't decides anything about how you choose to get treatment, as anyone who can afford it is still able to get private cover.

There's nothing socialist about universal health care unless you consider every developed nation in the world that isn't the USA to be socialist. If your main gripe with this is about having higher taxes, I can accept that. But I beg you to read up some more on universal health care before buying into the scaremongering. There are plenty of reasons to be afraid of a nanny state, but universal health care is not one of them.

Also, if you don't mind, I'd like you to provide some examples of failed universal health care systems in socialist countries.

 

[Zach]

Look psyclown, i encourage you to post and debate the issue. I appreciate that you admitted misreading his stance on compulsory military service (which, he has no stance on it because he's never mentioned it, btw).

I agree with you about gun control. Honestly, his stance on gun control is the only thing i am really uncomfortable with about Obama. From the way he ran his campaign i think he realizes that the american people aren't interested in someone that leans too far right or too far left. I don't think he's going to pursue that extremely partisan issue of gun control with his presidency. It seems like Obama realizes that there are much more important things to worry about.
Then again, i could be mistaken. I voted for the guy, i just wasn't comfortable with Mccain like i was with Obama. Furthermore, there are more important issues than gun control, sorry.

I agree with cucurocho about universal healthcare, and i think that it could work in the united states, and that's something we desperately need here.

 

[Psyclown]

Thanks Zach. I think I'll stick with staying out of it though. Not because of any perceived animosity from people, but just because it's not a debate that usually changes anyone's mind.

The election is over, he is the president. All we can do now is wait and see.

Thanks though for one of the few intelligent conversations I've ever been able to have on the issue. I'm sure you'll find someone to spar with, maybe you'll even get the joy of trying to talk to someone who thinks Obama is the Antichrist. That one's good for a laugh if you Google it.

Anyway, back to ecig topics for me.

 

[Frankie]

ha ha ha you want emotional? Your president started killing my friends in Beograde after a... whatever has been done on him by his interns. The next one started killing those dirty A-rabs in several countries at once, but at least farther from me and my friends. I just wish this Hussein one could shift the American war effort to Antarctica.

The last US president with any balls and charisma was Ronald Reagan. Seen from where I am sitting, which is far, far away.