Pseudo science and the Ecig

Status
Not open for further replies.

jtpjc

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Jun 8, 2010
1,521
2,291
Netherlands
Well, that was certainly a weird article. More of a rant really. I guess that's why noone has answered yet to this thread. What to do with this? What is the message supposed to be? I have no idea. Right now I'm puzzled, so I'm not giving an opinion, at least not yet. Still wondering if it is worthwile to read all that stuff again. For the moment thinking the author shouldn't have used that Anne Frank picture.
 

Maxine

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Nov 30, 2010
477
47
Maine
The Nazis were the original modern anti-smoking zealots - you cannot have a master race of cigarette smokers; it simply isn't done. So basically this guy's premise is that we're repeating history anti-smoking-wise. He states that cancer and cardio/pulmonary risks from smoking are not as great as we're commonly led to believe, that sufferers of other self-inflicted medical conditions are medically treated better than smokers, and footnotes links to support his positions. He also states that the human condition is prone to addiction and there's no scientific rationale for the current nicotine hysteria; that nicotine addiction is no worse than caffeine addiction.
 
Last edited:

Zal42

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Jan 20, 2011
595
24
Oregon
I dislike this article. The author isn't really talking about pseudoscience, but rather selectively using research to support a social/political agenda -- which is even worse than outright pseudoscience, imo.

In any case, he is right to condemn such zealotry, but is wrong in that he is engaging in at least an equal amount of zealotry to make his "argument". He overstates his case and states a few falsehoods as if they were fact (nicotine really is a neurotoxin and is more dangerous than caffeine, for instance) when he could stick to the unexaggerated facts to make the same fundamental point more compellingly.

When he ties in the Nazi stuff he starts to sound like a nutcase.
 
Last edited:

jtpjc

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Jun 8, 2010
1,521
2,291
Netherlands
I agree that the author overstates his case. On the other hand, there are a lot of cases in this world that are overstated as well. For one, smokers are leperds, subhumans, not deserving medical aid. Once you're convinced of that, it's okay to build concentration camps.

Perhaps the author is at war with the wold. Sometimes you have to use the same tactics as your enemy, and since it is a war, being right or wrong doesn't matter. It's about what the people think is right or wrong.

What this article touches, is a deeper human psychology. In the middle ages it were the witches that needed to be burned at the stakes, today it's the smokers, lowlifes that they are.

After all these ages, it's still dark outside.

I still don't know. Need to think about this some more.
 
Last edited:

Zal42

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Jan 20, 2011
595
24
Oregon
I agree with you and the author that the demonization of smokers is extremely objectionable and downright immoral. But I think that the way to counter it isn't to engage in reverse demonization. I think that the truth can be effectively stated, even forcefully stated, without resorting to such tactics.

I suppose that more than anything, the thing I find objectionable about the article is the exaggerations and falsehoods it puts forth, even if they are arguing something that I essentially agree with.
 

ScottinSoCal

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Dec 19, 2010
1,274
2,326
ProVari Nirvana
Todd R. Kueny, Sr.
Non-smoking Professional programmer, living cliche, husband, father, grandfather, mathematician, technologist, musician, carpenter, plumber, electrician and graphic artist.

But, apparently, flunked (or never took) debate. That first post violated just about every rule. I didn't have the strength (or desire) to read the rest.
 

Aaeli

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Dec 1, 2010
214
0
Kansas, U.S.
"I disagree with you, but I'm pretty sure you're not a Nazi..."- Jon Stewart

I'm sorry but my ears (and eyes) shut down as soon as anyone throws out the Nazi comparisons.

Using a picture of Anne Frank to promote an ecig agenda on either side is insulting and ridiculous. There are uninformed zealots on every side, this blog proves that.
 
Last edited:

DC2

Tootie Puffer
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jun 21, 2009
24,161
40,974
San Diego
He overstates his case and states a few falsehoods as if they were fact (nicotine really is a neurotoxin and is more dangerous than caffeine, for instance) when he could stick to the unexaggerated facts to make the same fundamental point more compellingly.
Google keeps on telling me that caffeine is also a neurotoxin.
 

Valentine Michael Smith

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Jan 25, 2011
175
25
Pacific Northwest
Ok that was a great deal of information very rapidly thrown out there. I read each section twice, at first glance most of it seems to be the rantings of anarchist. However, I believe that a great deal of what he is saying holds validity. His methods of conveying his information are however, how shall we say ohhh slightly less than diplomatic. His first two sections seem the most "rant like". I am guessing this is a tactic to piss people off and make them want to read more. Some it will work with, some it will not and they will shut him down.

He makes several points that are worthy of discussion:

1. There IS without a doubt a stigma against smoking. I'm still on the fence as to the idea that it goes as far as racial profiling. Having said that I believe it is possible(perhaps even likely) for things to progress that far.

2. PVs are NOT cigarettes and having nothing even remotely in common with them except perhaps how some of them may look, the marketing behind them, and the fact that they deliver nicotine (which as he stated comes from many other sources and in many different quantities/qualities).

3. We really do not KNOW for sure the effects of nicotine in and of itself outside the context of big tobacco. At least that is my understanding and I admit a great deal of ignorance on this particular subject. To the best of my knowledge there are not any macro level, peer reviewed, double blind scientific studies on the effects (short and long term) for nicotine outside the context of tobacco. If someone has read or knows of such research I would be very interested in reading it.

4 The government DOES pick and choose which evils they think are ok enough for us to engage in. With the help of large amounts of money changing hands. They happen to choose cigarettes (among other things) because they do make money (billions) off the tobacco industry. One thing I would add to this point is that the government also collects taxes off of every "sin" industry they can their hands on (alcohol much?).

5. The FDA, big tobacco, and the pharma industries have been tight for years. This is nothing new. Even the casual observer should be able to see this. If people think that tobacco is the exception and not the rule to this I would point out two other substances that are just as dangerous if not more so than cigarettes: Trans fatty acids and High Fructose Corn Syrup. Most Americans ingest those substances on a daily basis and they are most likely even more dangerous than cigarettes.

6. Regulation is coming for PVs. If for no other reason than it is something else the government can control, regulate, and tax to its (non-existent) hearts content.

7. Children can and most likely will be using PVs just by virtue of that fact that it is "forbidden fruit". Kids are always attracted what they are not allowed to do. In the case of PVs, I do not believe that children will be any more or less attracted to them than other "sins" (Alcohol, porn, gambling, sex, etc.) No one likes to believe that their own vices may attract children, but almost all of them do. I started using tobacco at a very young age, as I know many people do.

All in all an interesting perspective IMO.

VMS
 
Last edited:

EynaraWolf

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Dec 8, 2010
86
1
Pennsylvania
But, apparently, flunked (or never took) debate. That first post violated just about every rule. I didn't have the strength (or desire) to read the rest.

I find that interesting. Descriptions on he uses to describe himself is proof he doesn't take debate? What exactly does that have to do with a Non-smoker pointing out the fallacies of anti-nicotine propaganda?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread