Pub Licensing body to ban e cigarettes!!

[TheEmperorOfIceCream]

This is how I thought it would be. Ah well, guess I'll have to think about coming to live in the Netherlands. From the top of this thread, the original poster reports the UK Chief of Licensing has said he'll ban e-cigs because of the impression they will create. I haven't confirmed this at source, but it's just the sort of rubbish I expect (and invariably get) from people in authority here.

gloomy Emp

 

[katink]

Well, looks like you might be better off to keep on the move, once you go moving, 'till you reach Malaysia, Emperor... this is an attempt of the bars and cafe's to get around the bans where they can; and has little to do with how government in the Netherlands is handling it... that part is nót a story to feel glee about, I can tell you that! Even if they do acknowledge that e-smoking can't be barred using the tobacco-laws... doesn't mean they aren't trying under other pretences: like indeed making 'houserules' banning them on all kind of places because of, you guessed it, the impression they create...
We're just fighting a tough fight in the netherlands too, like many people all over are...

 

[Nazareth]

ultimately the desire to make these things look like real cigarettes is a mistake from a pubic acceptance point of view.. fake gun.. real gun.. fake ciggy real ciggy..

just doing the devils argueing for him..

trog

I don't htink this is a good analogy because E-Smokeing has not been proven to kill anyone, while guns do kill, and someone seeing a fake gun might mistake it for a real one- hence it would just be unwise for someone ot pull a fake one out and pretend it's real.

To the issue of the ban- I don't think there is a legal reason why E-Smoking should be banned. It doesn't matter if someone is 'offended' at hte sight of vapor- the legal fact is that the vapor does noone any harm [at least it's not been proven to do harm] so really, there is no legal grounds for which to ban it. Now, having said that, a Bar owner could establish a personal bar rule that he will not allow E-Smoking, but I don't beleive a statewide or coutnry wide ban can be established simply because peopel might be 'offended' at hte sight of vapor which they mistake for actual cigarette smoke. IF however, a lawyer could prove the vapor is harmful, then they would have a case- but I think a better analogy might be someone trying to get E-smoking banned simply because htey have an allergic reaction to E-Smoke- but then if everyhtign coudl be banned simpyl because a few peopel have allergic reactiosn, then practically every emitting place of business woudl have to shut down- such as Gas Stations [some peopel have allergic reactiosn to the smell of gasoline] Garages [some peopel are allergic to exhaust fumes in garages] etc.

This hwole "I'm allergic to somethign so the entire industry shoudl be banned" sue everyone mentality has just goen way too far. I'm hoping that there will be some E-Smoking advocacy groups that crop up which push the issue and challenge the charges in courts to stop this rediculous bias against smokers. The fact that peopel are freakign out over E-Smoking and bannign it from places shows an extreme bias that has absolutely no legal grounds for which to bring charges against the E-Smokers. I get dizzy and sick to my stomach when peopel wear purfume or cologn- Should we outlaw purfume and cologn wearing in bars too? If I'm getting sick to my stomach, the acids in my stomach ramp up, thus exposing me to the dangers of ulcers, saliva in my mouth increasaes and leaks to my throat- thus exposing me to the dangers of throat cancer- See how rediculous this can all get? I coudl make the case agaisnt practically anythign I like, but the fact abotu E-smoking vaporsa is that people are just objecting because it 'looks like smoke' and someone 'might get offended' - Our laws are meant to protect our rights, not our desires or protect us agaisnt dislikes. If E-Smoke/vapor causes health problems, then and only then do they have a case agaisnt it- If it doesn't, then htere really is no legal basis to be biased agaisnt it.

 

[TheEmperorOfIceCream]

Hi Naz

I don't think a ban will hold up, but nor do I think we'll be left alone by Big Tobacco, Big Pharma, or the Government. Most likely scenario? We'll be taxed until our eyes bleed...

Emp

 

[RatInDaHat]

The government people can ban things just because it might offend someone. We have to wear clothes legally.

 

[TropicalBob]

It's no stretch to see a ban being created and enforced. And I proffer a primary reason: To save the children from smoking. Argue all you want about that not being provable, about the health benefits of these, about the absence of second-hand smoke, etc. You'll likely get head shakes and tsk-tsks in reply. The do-gooders will not want anything resembling smoking to be legal in public places. We have a rough road ahead of us if we want this practice to become accepted in "no smoking" areas.

Me? I'm very thankful I can still e-smoke in my bathroom while reading Reader's Digest.

In fact, I propose a solution that might prove acceptable to the Nannies. It worked for play guns! Play guns that look real now must have a fluorescent orange tip on the barrel. That way, Mr. Policeman doesn't shoot the kid pointing a plastic Glock9mm at him. So we agree to paint all e-cigs fluorescent orange! Then, the do-gooders can look out over their smoke-free park and see benches occupied only with addicts puffing orange ciggies.

 

[Nazareth]

The cloathing law is a moral issue and judicially prudent- smoking doesn't rise to the implications/detrimetal isues of a cloathes-less society concernign violating hte rights of others. Real smoking of course edoes violate hte right of others when in public, but E-Smoking doesn't, so it can't really be argued that E-Smoking causes harm to others or induces them to take up habits they otehrwise wouldn't had they not seen someone E-Smoking. About banning for the sake of children- I'm not sure this would hold up, as arguments could be made that any number of legally allowed 'vices' could 'corrupt' children and 'might be' at a future time, detrimental to hteir health if htey should take up the vice.

we really need advocacy groups to fight for the right- but I fear citizens will simply comply without challenging the legality of the issue.

 

[trog100]

"but I fear citizens will simply comply without challenging the legality of the issue."

sheople is the common term.. i am just over sixty years of age.. i spent the first half of my life watching us being given more rights.. i have spent the second half of my life watching them being taken away..

trog

 

[TheEmperorOfIceCream]

Well, I won't be without this from here on in. Right now I'm dependent on manufacturers for the devices and cartridges. But there's enough info just on this forum to make me start thinking about whipping up an e-cig myself (and getting into home brew). Might be stinky, could be sightings of some nutter smoking a saxophone, but I ain't going gentle into that good night on this one...

 

[TropicalBob]

Nazareth, leave this section and go read Law and the E-Cigarette. Every country to date that has considered anything about e-smoking is proposing a ban. "Save the children" is the universal hue and cry against all forms of tobacco usage (the EU even banned the sale of snus).

Many posts in that section contain the quotes of our enemies. Read them carefully because you will soon hear them in public speeches and read them on protest placards.

 

[Nazareth]

Yup- which just shows an extreme biaS against smokers- they treat us with contempt as though we're tracks-armed heroine addicts living in slums- They look down their noses at us while drinking their hooch or coffee or latte's and pretend they aint got no habits themselves. I realize countries are bannign it- I just question the legality of banning E-Smoking- especially hwne prescribed nicotine is just fien and dandy with these same folks.

 

[TropicalBob]

I have a favorite saying about this: Follow the money. If e-smoking becomes popular, who wins? A few Chinese companies and some resellers. Who loses? The government loses easy taxes. Big Tobacco loses customers it wants to switch to new snus products, not e-cigs. Big Pharmaceutical loses massively, having bet that jittery ex-smokes will spend $14 billion a year on its nicotine replacement products. And the anti-tobacco crowd will be as one against it. They don't need any reason beyond "it looks like a cigarette and will attract people to an addictive practice."

With those kind of enemies, what chance does e-smoking have? Only a company the size of Ruyan's parent Golden Dragon can take on the bureaucracy and hammer out a plan that is agreeable. Maybe. Let's hope they are hard at work on such a plan. You and I surely have no voice any regulatory ear will listen to.

Consider this from another perspective: If you were Big Pharma or Big Tobacco, how much would you pay to snuff out this upstart before it becomes widespread? Bet they're calling in some Congressional favors right about now.

 

[Nazareth]

Yeah I hear ya and I know where you're coming from- I've been tempted to email both SmartFixx and NJoy and ask them how they are making out with the beurocracy issues involved just out of curiosity-

on a side note Bob, I asked a question abotu glycerin in another forum thread- I know you use gylcerin- could you take a look and see if the gylcverin at hte amazon link here is the same stuff you use? http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=398&p=5725#p5725

 

[dnakr]

Nazareth,

This is the one I use: http://www.amazon.com/Vegetable-Glyceri ... dpp_img_in

Rachel

 

[Nazareth]

Cool thanks Rachel- How much do you use? Like what ratio to smoking juice? 8 parts glycerin to 2 parts juice? or somehtign liek that? Do you feel it is failry safe for hte atomizer?

 

[TropicalBob]

Re Amazon: That's the EXACT brand I bought at the health food store -- for $5. It's just super sweet tasting, BTW. It's 80% of the final fluid and I vary the tobacco juice and flavor extract, starting small and adding flavor drops if needed. If I start high, I can't take it back!

I do have to shake and shake the mixture to get everything mixed properly. I put the final liquid in an eyedropper bottle and shake the bottle before every use of dripping into a cartridge.

 

[Nazareth]

excellent- thanks, I'll give it a purchase right off quick then. I don't mind a little bit of sweet taste, but frefere more tobacco flavour than sweet flavor myself, but I guess we can't avoid it with the glycerin. I've been dropping in some straight McCormick's Rum Extract- not a bad taste really- but it's got some corn syrup in it, probably won't use too much more of it unless I dilute it pretty well. Gives off some pretty decent smoke/vapor as it';s got PG in it- my other mixture of tobacco juice, coconut extract [with PG in it as well], and Rum extract was just too strong- but oddly enough, dropping straight Rum extract intoi the filter doesn't seem too strong for soem reason- but I'm gonna have to see if Bickfords has soem Rum extract with just rum and PG and no syrup in it, and add it to the Glycerin- well, at least I'm havign fun trying otu different combos- but I got kinda sick with the coconut rum extract- I put way too much coconut extract in- gave me headache, sore throat and just felt ill for a few hours lol. But you're right- we gotta find a mix solution that is just a bit thicker which won't evaporate too quickly- these alcohol extracts evaporate way too quick.

 

[TropicalBob]

You've got the right attitude. Experiment. Have fun. We ain't Martha Stewart here. Keep your trials safe -- no oils -- and let others know your results (like too much flavor is not a good thing).

 

[TheEmperorOfIceCream]

Naz

I hope you're just new to the forum, not to e-smoking - otherwise you're picking this up terrifiyingly fast! But welcome aboard anyway. We can always use another alchemist because I'm sure we won't be able to buy this stuff for much longer, and then we'll really need advice from TB and the sorcerers apprentices.

And then they'll ban fora...


Emp

 

[Nazareth]

Emperor- new to both- thanks for hte welcoem. I'm no chemist- beleive me lol- I'm lucky if I can melt butter over an open flame.

Yeah, it's rediculous that they mightr ban this stuff- especiuaslly when they chartge so much for Nicotine 'cessation' products by perscription only. Maybe is they do though- we can all plead being addicted to E-Smoking in particular, and get free government handouts in government run clinics, liek htey do for Crack Addicts and Heroine addicts. We can all sit on the benches outside hte clinic, smokin our Government provided E-Ciggs talkin bout hte good old days when people could actaul thiunk for themselves and decide which legal habits we liekd and which we didn't.

Experiment continued: Picked up some Glycerin- didn't say Vegetable Glycerin, but was lookin on internet and it said most glycerin is vegetable glycerin whether it states so or not- the stuff I got was in a skin care isle- pure glycerin [well 99.8 percent pure]- nothiugn added. I aslso picked up two more extracts- Raspberry and butter- yes, you heard me right- butter extract lol- word to the wise- don't use butter extract lol- actually, it wasn't too bad tasting- but definately different, and if you try it= prepare ot have EVERYTHING taste liek butter afterwards lol. Ity actually had the least 'extras' in it. Didn't have extras liek carmel coloring, corn sugar etc- was just PG, water and artificial flavor. The Raspberry wasn't all that great- didn't really liek hte flavor to be honest.

I ordered some PG and soem champagn, irish creme and strawberry extracts from Bickford's- will try mixing 50/50 PG with glycerin, then take that mix and mix it 75/25 with tobacco juice and add some extract to that- see what happens. The glycerin just doesn't seem to give quite hte 'lung singe' that the store bought Cartidges give me, and feels a bit too much like smoking a light cigarette to me- might be though that I didn't get enough tobacco juyice in the mix, or not enough nicotine or something- will have to play aroudn with the mixes a bit.

Overall, it seems that I only get abotu 6-7 [60 to 70 draws] real cigarettes smoking time out of a Cartridge when I refill them- I'm guessign htis is about normal? Also, I get real good vapor for abotu 1 real cigg worth, then I have to double draw to get good vapor for abotu 5-6 moire real cigarette's worth [about 50 or 60 more draws]. There must be soemthign in the 'store bought' Cartridges that helps extend the smoking time, because I soaked my Cartridge real well [put hte = of about 15-20 drops into Cartridge] and it still wouldn't make it past 7 or so Cigarettes. The Store bought ones last at least a full pack equivilent for me. Not sure what's goign on regardign this.