RBAs - *single part*- wick and element combined experiments - Carbon Fibre 'Wickement'.

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Hi there all,
Been vaping since mid August, but being a straight into the deep end/hands on/ 'tinkerer' kinda guy, I dove (almost) right in on the DIY mixing, and recently into RBAs - converted a Smoktech carto-tank into a mesh wick and kanthal style RBA (to later find out they make their own in almost exactly the same way LOL!), then whilst playing with that bought myself a 'CHID'.

After reading the entirety of the ~500 mesh thread, the DUD builds thread and a few others, and a good 3/4 dozen attempts, I *finally* got the CHID to work with 500# mesh *without* using a fibeglass 'condom' in-between the mesh and kanthal (FG 'tube' scavenged from an old cart, slid over the mesh and burned clean), but a long way to go yet to get it working 'perfect'. The converted Smok tank has since become somewhat of a test-bed for wicks and coils etc...

Anyways, being the kinda guy I am, I've 'been having thoughts' about these units and how to possibly improve them, one track of which has lead me to this:

Carbon fibre as both wick *and* heating element - did several web-searches and haven't found anything about anyone even speculating, but having (C) 100m of CF 'tow' here, thought I'd have a play this last couple of days.

I've had some success already, but at around 2mm wick diameter, can't get high enough resistance to have one run from my limited gear - the h/m USB passthrough I have will fire the thing, but it (wickement) gets way too hot too quick and I'm fairly pushing the PC's PSU, so much that it drops from its usual 4.6-4.9v, down to around 3.5v - the 2mm thick 'Wickement' comes in at around 0.9 to 1.1 Ohms and is quite long at that - I have it come outa the mid-plate of the tank and spiral a bit around the centre post - but I do see potential - it's running and working now but at this length and after being fiddled with all day until it's started to fall apart a little, it's not quite up to the wicking level that's needed.

The CF itself wicks beautifully however, and when I had it shorter and at about 0.7 Ohms, it had no trouble keeping up, right until the entire length glowed a dull orange and the juice caught fire (my blue tank tube rilly didn't like that, and is now a little, uhhhmmm - 'melted' LOL!).

I'm thinking a U-wick style RBA might be a good base to experiment with this stuff on given the length of wick it allows for, but the fact the mounting plate is conductive would all but negate the benefits since I woldn't be able to isolate one end electrically from -ve/ground to attach the +ve connection - for other reasons I already have my head working on a non-conductive wick and terminal plate, but my limited resources likely don't allow for me making such a thing - likely won't stop me from trying at some point though!

Now for those running low V/super high current mods, there may be something in this for them although of course that kind of set-up is ill-advised as the potential for personal disaster is, well kinda 'up there', heheheh, but it doesn't seem to have put some folk off.

Anyways#2 - this is why I thought I'd throw this out there now so those with more/different/better resources and different minds could see if they feel they want to and can, forge on with this line of thinking whilst I'm doing my humble best here, meanwhile a little about the 'Wickement' as I made them:


I started with a fairly fine 'TOW' of CF - 3k Tow: Carbon Fibre 3K Tow / Roving on a 100m Reel - Easy Composites is the stuff I got.

I cut several lengths about 30% longer than needed, and bundled them together until they were almost at the dia. of the (in this case 2mm) wick hole, then whilst giving the bundle a gentle twist, glued the 2 ends of the bundle to hold it fast.

I then asked Mrs. Vapir to kindly hold each glued end whilst I wrapped it 'flat' (wrapping fibres spread out) in another length of the fibre, spiralling from one end to the other, opposite direction to the previous 'gentle twist', then glued the ends of the wrapping to the glued ends of the bundle - I could now handle it without it spreading open.

Just below the glue at what would be the top end of the 'Wickement', I wrapped 3 or 4 turns of ~28 guage plain copper wire very tightly, bringing the two ends back together and twisting them tight as well - this twist would connect the wickement to the +ve post of the RBA. Above the wire wraps could then be cut off to remove the glued part.

I fed the other glued end down through the wick hole leaving enough length above, and wrapped another piece of the copper wire around the fibres just at the plate level, and secured that under the -ve terminal screw - the contact between CF wickement and alu. plate is insufficient for it to make it's own connection - got a reading of between 17 and 30 Ohms without using the copper wire - the CF needs to be compressed somewhat before it gives a good and consistent connection.

I wrapped another piece of copper wire around the bottom end of the wick above the glue, twisted it tight, then cut off the glue before reassembling the RBA.

So, I know some of you may be thinking this all makes it not a 'one-piece' affair but hells, I'm indulging my license a little here LOL!

Well that's it - all I gotta say for now except - feel free to poke holes/constructive criticism encouraged etc. - sounds fiddly but if the idea can be made to work, shouldn't really take any longer than mesh and coil to set-up after a little practice and the potential seems to be there for the basics of this idea to be used in alternative arrangements perhaps.

I gotta go now and eat summink - be well folks!

DV (If it ain't broke, break it first and then fix it)
 
Am in the process of drilling and cutting up a little glass bottle for another RBA (I am more skint than you can poss. imaging LOL!) so I can play with this CF wickement idea some more.

Idea for now is gonna be to use an alu. mid/mounting plate again, but to drill 2 wick holes opposite each other but of a larger dia. than needed - big enough to fit a ceramic tube in each to electrically insulate the CF from the plate - for now am gonna use a cut-up ceramic fuse body for this, but my next option will be to use 'axial ferrite beads' as these are common, cheap and offer plenty of electrical insulation for this purpose, plus I can get them in a good range of diameters to play with.

Using the above the idea is to make a 'U' shaped CF wickement isolated from the alu plate, with copper wire terminals each end of the 'U' as in the first post - should give me a wick long enough to get to 1.5 to 2 Ohms region which is in my usable range for the PV's I have, although I do have a new version itaste on the way too.

Looking at the rate of wicking of the CF bundles themselves this *should* work wonderfully well - then it's just a case of testing longevity of serviceable life to see if it's a worthwhile avenue of 'splorashun 'n' 'sperimentashun - making the wicks themselves really isn't that hard esp. given a pair of helping hands for a minute or 3.

'Sall fer now!

Be Well and Happy Vapin's Folks ',;~}~

DV "The wise-man and the fool are but flip-sides of the same coin."
 

gdeal

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Ok, I'll bite and be the first to reply here.

I do not know if you are a genius or a mad man. :laugh:

There are so many thing going on here I got lost following your narrative of what you are doing. You have some many moving parts it was hard to wrap my head around this. So let me narrow down my inquiry into the primary aspect of what I think is driving the form of your set up configuration.

In particular the Carbon Fiber material. Do you have a spec sheet on this? What I don't understand is the electrical conductivity/resistance part, how you are using it, how you controlling it.

A picture or two, so the reader can visualize this creation, would be helpful to start. At least me.

BTW, I would double check on using copper, I read somewhere here in ECF that it may be a bit toxic in our setups.
 
Ok, I'll bite and be the first to reply here.

I do not know if you are a genius or a mad man. :laugh:

There are so many thing going on here I got lost following your narrative of what you are doing. You have some many moving parts it was hard to wrap my head around this. So let me narrow down my inquiry into the primary aspect of what I think is driving the form of your set up configuration.

In particular the Carbon Fiber material. Do you have a spec sheet on this? What I don't understand is the electrical conductivity/resistance part, how you are using it, how you controlling it.

A picture or two, so the reader can visualize this creation, would be helpful to start. At least me.

BTW, I would double check on using copper, I read somewhere here in ECF that it may be a bit toxic in our setups.

Heheheh, I know I can tend to be a bit uhhmmm... 'wordy' ',;~}~

Not too hot on drawings so I'm not even gonna attempt any diagrams, but *if* I get around to it at some point I'll *try* and put a photo or two up.

Copper issues - not personally aware of any but I'll do some digging - only using it as I ad it to hand and t is very malleable as well as a great conductor, but another type of wire of low/negligible resistance could easily be used instead.

As for the rest - controlling the resistance - dependant only on length of wick between the +ve and -ve terminals and the wick diameter (plus minor differences depending on how tight the connections between 0 Ohm wire and CF bundle are but I am not taking those into acct. as they're negligable if it's done 'right') - seems more and more folk are using VV/VW PVs these days, and for those folk at least this is less of an issue providing I can get the finished wick(s) to a reasonable resistance of say, anywhere between 1.5 and 3 Ohms.-

-CF has an inherent conductivity/resistance - all other factors being equal (such as temperature, quality of connection etc. etc.), a given length and thickness of a solid CF will have a fixed given resistance.


Really early days yet as I've only just come up with the idea (day before my first post on the subject) and my resources for experimenting with this are limited to say the least at present, as is my time and energy and getting my free time to coincide with clarity of mind and energy, well... (I have some health issues). I threw it out there right away though as this isn't a business idea of mine and I figured, if there's anything in it, there's likely other folks out there that could take it forward at a better pace.

As for spec. of the CF? - I posted a link to where I got it (easycomposites.co.uk) and basically, it's '3k Tow' pure carbon fibre (no glues/resins or anything) - designed for reinforcing/repairing/weaving CF composites - fishing rods, model aircraft etc. - it's lots of very fine CF threads - they don't come twisted but are rolled up like unbound fibrous ribbons. The stuff cost me around £10 plus postage for 100m reel. The co. also stocks a 6k Tow which is less 'fine' (?!?) (presume it's just double the thickness of 'ribbon' but with the same individual thickness strands but I don't know for certain) if I'd bought it for this purpose I'd likely have gotten it thicker so less individual lengths were needed to get a decent dia. finished 'wickement'.

Not really loads of moving parts though - just a bunch of CF bundled up and wrapped in same, with 2 pieces of 'NR' wire attached essentially.

As for 'genius or madman'?!? - they aren't in my exp. mutually exclusive terms - one of my sayings "The wise man and the fool are but flip-sides of the same coin." I guess most folk who know me well would indeed call me both (if either LOL!)

There I go with lots of words again, heheheh...

Thanks for 'breaking the ice' and being first to reply ',;~}~

Cheers, and Be Well!

DV "I understand me perfectly, but guess that's not the point of an explanation."
 
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gdeal

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Ok, that was not very helpful, (no offense) but thanks anyway.

On this page: Properties of carbon fibre tow

They state that Electric Resistivity is 1.7 x 10-3 Ω⋅cm

Here is the math, it may help you more quickly figure out the right diameter to wick length:



R = ρ l / A

where

R = resistance (ohms, Ω)

ρ = resistivity (ohm meter, Ω m)

l = length of conductor (m)

A = cross-sectional area of conductor (m2)
 
I don't know if I've followed this correctly, but I would be concerned about the 'glue' being burned and ingested into my lungs! What kind of glue are you referring to?

Hi there dsy5 - I'm referring to CA glue (cyano-acrylate/superglue), and I only applied it temporarily to the very ends to hold them in place whilst a) wick was completed and b) to help the bottom end of the wick thread through the wick hole.

Soon as it was no longer needed I cut it off (with room to spare for extra safety), and the *entire* wick length was well pre-burned before I tried to use it anyway (extra safety) - CA glue has a *very* acrid smell and taste when heated and is thorogly i9rritating in the smalest of amounts (and when curing for that matter) and any remaining traces would have been immediately obvious to me (and anyone else trying it for that matter) upon first vape, and there was nothing.

Pls. note the techniques I used were for experimental purposes anyway - as I've said - this is very early days (what 3? 4?-ish since I came up with the idea) and no doubt, barring my coming upon obstacles or such problems that show this avenue to be a waste of time, easier techniques for bundling, wrapping, threading and connecting the wick('ement' lol!) are sure to present themselves.

Cheers, and be well!

I gotta go dash and pull a wheat and dairy free apple crumble out the oven and tuck in now ',;~}~

DV Loves To Cook.
 
Ok, that was not very helpful, (no offense) but thanks anyway.

On this page: Properties of carbon fibre tow

They state that Electric Resistivity is 1.7 x 10-3 Ω⋅cm

Here is the math, it may help you more quickly figure out the right diameter to wick length:



R = ρ l / A

where

R = resistance (ohms, Ω)

ρ = resistivity (ohm meter, Ω m)

l = length of conductor (m)

A = cross-sectional area of conductor (m2)

Hi again gdeal - sorry if it wasn't helpful, but it seems you didn't need any help - you found the information you were after without any of mine, anyway ',;~}~

Thing is, I may have a fairly scientific mind (and to some extent background), but I'm also an artist by nature, and a large amount of my experimentation is done via trail, error, and organic 'feel' - that's a whole chunk of the fun of it for me - I'd have just wrapped myself a length of the wick at around 2 - 2.5mm, and measured along that length until I found the resistance I was looking for and started from that point - I know by instinct and my single previous 'trail' (and yup - 'error' that I can get a workable section like this.

Also, the time I am spending on this is budgeted - I have things I'd rather be doing.

Aaaaand that brings me to - gota go again but, I'll be back LOL!

Cheers, and as ever - be well! ',;~}~

DV ('True Blood' is just starting LOL!)
 
@gdeal - Sorry for dashing last night (as it was here) - hope I didn't come across as rude!

Further to the above - I thank you for posting the formula even though I doubt I'll be using it personally as I said above - I have 100m of the CF, and at around 10 pence/M have plenty to play with, but I am sure it will help anyone so minded that's reading to get a better picture.

Also I'd be concerned that the mathematical outcomes would differ from the practical? There are so many human factors involved that would effect the outcome, such as how tight the bundle is compressed by the terminal-wire wraps, if the inner bundle is twisted or not (or by how much), and how the outer wrapping layer is applied - may or may not be by much but I'd prefer the empirical results of my own actual experiments to anything I could arrive at by number crunching.

I *will* try and get some photographs to post as I (slowly, no doubt!) progress, but not having even tried to UL a photo to the site yet, not even sure how it works here - if I can do this directly from the files on my own PC that would be great - don't know about you or anyone else, but personally I despise 3rd party photo hosting sites and find them at best a 'right royal PITA' and unnecessarily time consuming.

Thanks again for your indulgence - hope you're well!

DV (P.s. - Last night's 'True Blood' show was a scream LOL!)
 
As carbon builds up on the coil wont that affect the resistance of the cf over time?

Hi there zapped,

The (carbon fibre) wick is the heater element also in this case, so there is no coil as such. Also, any carbon that does build up on a normal coil is due to the burning of the juice rather than its vaporisation. Add to this that loosely aggregated 'soot' type carbon deposits have rather low electrical conductivity, and since we are dealing with such low resistances in our vape set-ups, any extra conductivity such possible deposits may contribute would be negligible.

However, I'm gonna have to do much more experimentation yet before I can give empirical answers to these sorts of questions - so far much of this is floating firmly in theory land, eh.

One thing that does seem likely is that this CF 'wickement' arrangement should remove actual *hot* spots that can cause juice burning from the equation - some areas of the wick/ement will most likely get hotter than others but the effect should be spread out over a much greater area than with the more usual resistance-wire coils.

Anyways - I'll let you know for sure soon as I find out for myself - gonna be a week or 3 before I get to test another CF wick/ement out most likely as I have a lot to do in the workshop(S) (both the actual physical one, and the one I use most - the one in my head) with my jewellery and such already with xmas coming up ',;~}~

Cheers, and Be Well!

DV - "Only trust those who like big butts, for they cannot lie." (Taken from a post on FB)
 
DV, glad you're cutting off the glued part - superglue in lungs can be deadly.

Hi again dsy5 - yeah, I've been around a while and am used to handling these sorts of things and am more than careful myself - I tried to make it clear in my OP that I cut the glued bits off in regard for the safety of others - respiratory arrest is no fun at all.

Be Well,

DV
 
This thread interest me. CF should have great wicking properties. It would be the resistance I would worry about. What kind of resistance are you reading from say a 3 inch single strand of tow, versus a 3 inch piece of multiple fibers with a single wrapping strand to keep the piece intact?

Just about to go to bed right now so no time to reach for the meter and CF, but a single piece of the 3k tow is really quite thin - but from memory the wrapped bundles/finished piece at about 2.5mm were giving me in the region of 1.5 Ohm/inch maybe - I've been really busy with other things so not had time to collate more empirical data - as I said, only really done the one experiment so far, and the res. vs. length and width I used wasn't workable for a genny style RBA.

Got several pieces of jewellery to make before xmas is upon us and the pieces I design and make can seriously take some time and other personal resources (for me anyway) - add to that most days of the week I'm currently doing laborious bread-and-butter work and you'll understand I haven't had much time to even organise this properly as a project, let alone put into this practically yet.

I'll see if I can get time this next few days, but I was hoping not to wrap another wick/ement until I had the new RBA cobbled together so I could visualise the dimensions and style of it better.

As for wicking properties - it certainly *seemed* to have them in spades - the unit kept wicking right until the juice burst into flames - guess that's what's gonna happen running upwards of 3.5v (actual loaded reading) from the high current USB outlet of the desktop PC, into about 0.6 - 0.7 Ohms wick/ement for 10+ seconds, heheheh...

Cheers, and thanks for your indulgence ',;~}~

DV "Leaning towards the madman side of the scale I fear".
 

slimest

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Carbon fibre is a very dangerous material. When heater works and e-liquid boiling, small parts of this wick can be inhaled. And they have very, very long life. So the vaper has risk of pneumosclerosis caused bu these particles. The same is when you use silicates incliding glass fibre.
Also, if you are going to use this fibre as a wick and a heater, it's very difficult to achieve stable resistance and productivity due to a lot of very brittle filaments.
 
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Carbon fibre is a very dangerous material. When heater works and e-liquid boiling, small parts of this wick can be inhaled. And they have very, very long life. So the vaper has risk of pneumosclerosis caused bu these particles. The same is when you use silicates incliding glass fibre.
Also, if you are going to use this fibre as a wick and a heater, it's very difficult to achieve stable resistance and productivity due to a lot of very brittle filaments.


Hi there slimest - and thanks for raising this point, however so far the only really worrying information I have been able to find has been presented by medically unqualified laypersons, and has been without any scientific support.

Below are links to an excerpt on pubmed from actual laboratory studies, and a link to a full study and results that appear to suggest a far less significant risk:

Dust from carbon fibre. [Environ Res. 1978] - PubMed - NCBI

And:

http://joh.sanei.or.jp/pdf/E43/E43_2_03.pdf

Excerpt from the last link above:


"... From the morphological observation of lavage cells it
was evident that the dusts persisted in the lung for at
least one month after injection, but CF (Carbon Fibre) and
CFC (Carbon Fibre Composite) dusts
were apparently phagocytosed by macrophages and the
CF or CFC laden macrophages were morphologically
intact and showed no evidence of an adverse reaction to
the dust content. Similar changes were seen with TiO2
dust and SAFFIL fibres and are considered typical of
biologically inert dust.
By contrast both quartz and
chrysotile resulted in obvious morphological changes in
macrophages and by virtue of the cellular debris seen
could be considered to be cytotoxic to the phagocytic
cells.
In previous studies total and differential counts of
lavage cells have been used as indices to evaluate the
toxicity of dusts to the lung. An increase in the total
number of cells in lavage fluid has been observed in
animals treated with various insoluble dusts4). From our
observations the total numbers of cells in rats treated with
CF or CFC dust were significantly smaller than those
seen with quartz or chrysotile and comparable with the
negative controls used. This is considered to confirm
the very weak nature of the biological response to CF
and CFC dust."

However - anyone reading PLEASE feel encouraged to discuss, oppose, and argue the points the above studies appear to make - please though, include your supporting scientific evidence/links to study papers etc. - unsopported conjecture, here-say and anecdote etc. I will deem wholly invalid.

As for your other point about physical stability of the CF wick/ement and possible problems of service longevity - it's also a concern of mine but one I have not had a chance to test empirically yet.

Cheers and thanks once again - it's this sort of discussion that gets all the information out in the open and helps shed light on possibilities and drawbacks.

Be Well!

DV
 
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slimest

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OK, if carbon fibres can be utilized by macrophages, it's the great new. I personally doubt it (some experience in morphology in the past). Took your links for future ;)
Anyway there is the problem with stabile heating performance of a carbon fibre wick/heater... The best proof is an experiment.
And also: did you count or measure approximate resistance of a such heater? Just thinking...
 
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OK, if carbon fibres can be utilized by macrophages, it's the great new. I personally doubt it (some experience in morphology in the past). Took your links for future ;)
Anyway there is the problem with stabile heating performance of a carbon fibre wick/heater... The best proof is an experiment.
And also: did you count or measure approximate resistance of a such heater? Just thinking...

Well let's hope it's (macrophages) true! No experience in these areas myself but have some minor science education and 'lay' science background, so don't have *too much* trouble understanding these things.

As for stable heating performance and experimentation - I agree - I won't be happy until I've tested these things well for myself. I've still only tried the one short section and it was of far too low resistance for my set-ups (under 0.7Ohm IIRC... ). I believe I should be able to make a ~= 2 Ohm CF piece using a 'U'-type wick arrangement, but as I've mentioned already I am yet to build the atomiser to house this - either too busy, too tired or too ill at the moment LOL!

Be Well!

DV
 
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