re: ontario applies cigarette rules to e-cigarettes

[silenthunder]

Ontario government to restrict use of e-cigarettes, says TV station | Toronto Star

so it seems like Wynne went back on her word of 'not rushing into' making a decision

I wonder at how this decision was based on evidence that doesnt exist and on an idea that e-cigarettes cause normalization of cigarettes (what? DOES ANYONE actually think that the two are the same? )

e-cigarettes are being sold to minors? then focus on that. don't restrict their use everywhere and then claim you are doing it to protect 'the children'. I think most e-cig users would agree that it shouldn't be sold to minors.

I knew this was going to happen eventually I'm just somewhat angry/frustrated that the government would try to use complete bull.... logic in explaining it.

Here is a conundrum in canada that was recently explained to me by the director of policy of the canadian public health association:
-there is more research needed - especially for harm reduction and whether e-cigs are toxic
-this research is usually paid for by manufacturers attempting to have their devices/substance etc approved for sale/use
-e-cigarette juice with nicotine is banned; this combined with the fact that there is NO major manufacturer/supplier who is able to afford to pay for these studies means that it is very unlikely this ban will ever be lifted

my hopes are that since big tobacco owns the lions share of ecig sales in the states that they eventually start funding this type of research in the states and eventually attempt to force their way into canada using this research

I'm a pretty pessimistic person so I don't see any of this working out in e-cig users favor.

but heres a plus:

e-cig juice with nicotine has been banned for a while - but there is little enforcement.

similarly how much enforcement is there of cigarette use bans? (i.e. around entrances to buildings etc.) - I suspect that in some places we still won't have to be worried about getting ticketed etc.

and e-cigarettes lend themselves to stealthy use. if i wanna sit in my office at work and puff away it won't set off a smoke detector.

I still think the whole thing smells like bs - but lets see them enforce it.

 

[belecp]

I did not see this post before I did a post on the same subject. I will just copy the contents of my post and then delete it.

Hi All..Ontario is set to pass a bill that will regulate where "e-cigarettes" can be used. The media says it is a ban when actually it is a regulation which basically puts the same limitations on e-cigarettes that are in place for tobacco cigarettes. I can't really blame the media for their wrong information about e-cigs. They just read a news story. The WHO saying that there is not enough study on e-cigs of coarse is just not true. Dr. G Bhatnager a Cardiothoracic surgeon gave a presentation to the Ministry of Health in Ottawa with many results of studies etc. As much as I do not want to see regulations on e-cigarettes if where we can vape is as far as the legislation goes I am OK with that. Of coarse the question is what does the future hold.

 

[vincom]

i wonder what the definition for ecig is........ nic level, mod, cig alike
if govt states any device that creates vapor then they will have to apply it foggers aka smoke machines, room vapoirizers etc

 

[dahlialady]

I smoked a pack-plus a day for 33 years. Tried to quit with the patch, inhalers, gum, cold turkey, and hypnosis. Nothing worked. I had severe bronchitis in the end. Smoking was killing me. The government was loving me. All the sin taxes I was paying....Big Pharma was loving me. All the patches and gum I was buying. Then I found e-cigs. I quit within 3 days. No irritability or side effects. Now the government hates me. I will live longer and the government will have to pay me a pension. It costs me pennies a day to get my nicotine fix. Money that isn't going into government coffers. My bronchitis is gone. Thank you e-cigs you saved this veterans life.

The government acts like e-cigs will destroy the economy. They will pull out all stops to ban them. They are banning menthol cigs in Ontario, so they can cover up their own hypocrisy of selling flavoured tobacco, and then they will act on banning e-juice of all kinds. Then....just wait and see.....Big Pharma will come out with flavoured e-juice. Probably at $100 for 30ml.

E-cigarettes to be restricted, flavoured tobacco to be banned in Ontario - Business - CBC News

 

[BigBoyBlue]

I knew it was only a matter of time before the government took steps towards regulating the e-cigarette industry. I am in support of banning the sale of devices/juice to minors. Also, vaping should not be allowed in public spaces, workplaces, bars, restaurants, etc. I say this because it is inconsiderate of others, not because it has negative health affect. I don't enjoy a scented candle or a strong perfume scent. Vaping has an odor that doesn't appeal to everyone and we should not subject non vapors to it. I am more concerned with the ban on flavoured tobacco products. From what I have read it didn't say anything about e-juice flavours but I can imagine that they will also be banned?

I think we all know the real issue here is a loss of tax revenue the government experiences when people stop smoking or change to another source. The government recently announced that it was trying to stop a revenue leak created by the underground(native) cigarette trade. This is a losing battle. No revenue will be recovered. The only other option the government has is to tax the electronic cigarette market. The 13% they currently make on sales is a fraction of what they make on a pack of cigarettes. First step is to get e-cigarettes into the same category as analogues. Second step is to tax it. I don't look forward to this next step.

 

[vincom]

its almost impossible to tax ejuice as its core ingredients are basic and used in a wide array of consumer products, the only thing they might be able todo is tax nic liquid concentrates but i will stock up on that if they do try to tax it, i calculated a 1liter 100mg nic should last me 5 to 10 years making my diy juice

 

[Jethro66]

I knew it was only a matter of time before the government took steps towards regulating the e-cigarette industry. I am in support of banning the sale of devices/juice to minors. Also, vaping should not be allowed in public spaces, workplaces, bars, restaurants, etc. I say this because it is inconsiderate of others, not because it has negative health affect. I don't enjoy a scented candle or a strong perfume scent. Vaping has an odor that doesn't appeal to everyone and we should not subject non vapors to it. I am more concerned with the ban on flavoured tobacco products. From what I have read it didn't say anything about e-juice flavours but I can imagine that they will also be banned?

I think we all know the real issue here is a loss of tax revenue the government experiences when people stop smoking or change to another source. The government recently announced that it was trying to stop a revenue leak created by the underground(native) cigarette trade. This is a losing battle. No revenue will be recovered. The only other option the government has is to tax the electronic cigarette market. The 13% they currently make on sales is a fraction of what they make on a pack of cigarettes. First step is to get e-cigarettes into the same category as analogues. Second step is to tax it. I don't look forward to this next step.

Yes they want to ban the e joose flavor and the so called e-cig bars...This is the same liberal party that wants to legalize weed

 

[vincom]

new law takes effect jan 2016.........

 

[silenthunder]

so just to clarify for some of us:

nicotine (i.e. the nicotine for use in e-juice) is already banned.

nothing else has ever been banned - and what happened today is the passing of regulations on devices and 0-nic juice.

I had never really thought of it like some of you had pointed out in this thread - but you are completely true in saying they are planning on regulating e-juice that contains a bunch of harmless food additives.

the problem with research is that there isn't much done in harm reduction research - which is the type of research that directly applies to using e-cigarettes to quit - and the comparison of e-cigarettes to analogues with regard to harm done.

theres also very little done on 'efficacy' of using e-cigarettes to quit.

without that research the ban on nicotine will probably continue.

still - it remains to be seen how they intend on enforcing the regulations.

 

[retired1]

its almost impossible to tax ejuice as its core ingredients are basic and used in a wide array of consumer products, the only thing they might be able todo is tax nic liquid concentrates but i will stock up on that if they do try to tax it, i calculated a 1liter 100mg nic should last me 5 to 10 years making my diy juice

Tell that to the vapers in Phillidelphia. CASAA: Call to Action: Philadelphia is Considering a $2.00 Tax E-Cigarettes and and $.50/ml Tax on E-Liquids

 

[BigBoyBlue]

its almost impossible to tax ejuice as its core ingredients are basic and used in a wide array of consumer products, the only thing they might be able todo is tax nic liquid concentrates but i will stock up on that if they do try to tax it, i calculated a 1liter 100mg nic should last me 5 to 10 years making my diy juice

Any reputable business operating in Ontario will be taxed if the government decides to do that. The core ingredients will not be taxed which is great for DIY but those that manufacture and sell ejuice will be subject to whatever tax the government applies. I wish it wasn't the case but believe me it's coming.

 

[vincom]

how would u define eliquid, w/nic or no nic
seller sells vg +pg+ flavoring as a skin care ointment.
seller can then sell seperately nic only liquid so anyone can add it to what ever they like which per ml tax would be alot cheaper.
there would be so many loop holes the govt can not consider when trying to tax an item that is made up of basic ingredients.

how would u define an ecig, mine doesnt look like a analogue cig(mvp2+nautilus), i define mine as my personal mini fogger. they do sell foggers that use glycerin so why would mine be any different other than mine doesnt come with a fan.

vaping would be hard to tax or even define as they are w/tobacco products

 

[retired1]

E-liquid is e-liquid. And if you sell it as something else, now you're running afoul of the truth in labelling laws. It doesn't matter if there's nicotine in it or not. If the government decides it wants a bigger slice of the pie, you can rest assured that they'll word the law in such a manner that any and all e-cig products are taxed.

 

[vincom]

E-liquid is e-liquid. And if you sell it as something else, now you're running afoul of the truth in labelling laws. It doesn't matter if there's nicotine in it or not. If the government decides it wants a bigger slice of the pie, you can rest assured that they'll word the law in such a manner that any and all e-cig products are taxed.

wrong, where is it defined what constitutes eliquid, glycerin + flavors is whatever i say it is or whatever the next person says.its actually just that.....glycerin
how are they going to tax the diy'ers as the base ingredients are readily available

 

[silenthunder]

something i had a thought about today.

all of the people i have met selling e-cigs and juice don't sell to minors.

i wonder if the ontario government took any time at all to even try to cooperate with e-cig vendors and e-cig users before dropping the hammer.

there is a claim made by the government that e-cigs help 'normalize' regular smoking, and help 'model' the behavior for youngsters and that this is a 'gateway' to smoking.

taking a look at the literature its all rather ambiguous. The findings can be interpretted in many different ways - and the government CHOSE to interpret them in a way that seems popular with the majority (i.e. not the e-cig users).

I'm in school for something health related. I was a little dumbfounded that my entire class would choose to regualr e-cigs - and it was all based on intuitions and judgments because an e-cig looks like a cigarette and kicks off vapor that looks like smoke

they all seemed to have trouble with noticing a detail that is pretty important : e-cigarettes are NOT the same as tobacco.

the regulation is only on stuff not containing nicotine - so I am REALLY CONFUSED as to the analogy that e-cigs are like cigarettes.

I mean if I started a fad of sticking a straw on my mouth and breathing through it and this caught on does that mean its 'modeling' behvaior for smoking?!?!

sorry ranting. I just find this whole thing to be an exercise in fascism and ignorance.

 

[MadMeathead]

My run through of Bill 45 and it's potential impacts.

Meatheads Madness: Bill 45 - Schedule 3; The Dipi Solution

 

[Porkleaker]

So basically any type of e-cig, mod, juice, those that sell it or use it will be treated exactly like smokers and cigarettes. So ridiculous, sure restrict the sale to minors, that's fine. The rest of this bill is absolutely insane and sets the ground to start taxing e-juice and devices, I'm sure the perpetually broke Ont Govt really just wants a piece of that pie.