Second hand vaping - any risk?

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Cloud Wizard

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I never smoked in my house (or car if anyone else was in with me) and I've seen various statements made about only exhaling "water vapor". I also never vape in front of my kids (they never saw me smoke either - just don't want them to ever thinking it's cool), but I do now vape in the house.

Logically I feel like there's no issue, but is there any concern about "second hand" vape? Is there any risk to pets? (my dog is my 4th son, he's the one in my avatar) it would devastate me if I caused harm.

(I keep all my gear locked away and always wash my hands to keep from transmitting juice...)
 

rolygate

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Nobody really knows because there have not been any reliable, comprehensive tests of vapor as yet. In any case, all that would show is what you inhale. Exhaled vapor will be very different.

The problem is that there is no known way to test exhaled vapor. Cigarette smoke tests cannot be used as the equipment would not work: the filters would need to be re-designed, as water-based vapor has a very different effect on the lab machinery from smoke. It would tend to clog filters much more.

All the published lab tests we know of have been conducted by people who did not know how an e-cig works, and who did not even perform complete tests of the mainstream vapor ingredients. The ecigs were tested upside down, which means they would have quickly dried out and melted the internals [1]. There is no known test of 100% of the vapor ingredients including water. So even 'mainstream' vapor has not been tested properly or fully.

In multiple sample tests, it was found that only the first test was accurate as the mist could not be cleaned out of the equipment, sticking to the inside, so that all subsequent tests were contaminated by the first. And after that is solved, nobody has even suggested how a filter to replicate the lungs could be constructed; but since all tests that used tobacco cigarette smoke protocols ended up faulty, it can be assumed that this much more complex test is beyond the capabilities of current lab technicians in this field.

You can make a rough estimate, with little basis for the evidence though. It goes like this:

1. Mainstream vapor probably consists of about 66% water, 3% PG, 1% glycerine, 1% nicotine, and the bulk flavoring. Yes, that is a lot of flavoring - but as everything else is accounted for, that's probably what it is (plus any flavor diluents such as alcohol).

2. After filtration by the lungs and mucous membranes of the mouth and nose; plus additional water since all exhaled air contains water; ignoring air gases such as nitrogen, oxygen, carbon dioxide and argon; the vapor could consist of about 90% water, 0.5% PG, 0.1% glycerine, 0.1% nicotine, and around 9% flavoring.

The water is harmless, as is the PG and glycerine. PG is likely to be found in the air in large buildings such as hospitals since it is used in the air conditioning plant to kill airborne pathogens such as Legionnaire's Disease (and as a harmless, non-toxic antifreeze) [2]. The nicotine is likely to be in such small quantities that it is much less than the amounts in the daily diet (everyone consumes nicotine in the diet, and everyone tests positive for nicotine as a result - it is neither an alien toxic chemical nor harmful). The largest ingredient of any interest is likely to be the flavoring. So far we think it unlikely that this is likely to cause harm on a wide scale, if at all.

Some people are intolerant to some flavors, and some flavors are known to be harmful if inhaled, although these are generally avoided now. It's basically down to whether or not you think chocolate flavor in minute quantities and often undetectable is likely to harm bystanders. There is reasonable evidence that room air fresheners would be worse in this regard, as some of the aromatics and excipients they use would not be safe for use in an ecig, and because the scent (and therefore the quantity in the atmosphere) is much stronger. Often, you can vape away without anyone catching the aroma of what you are vaping. A room air freshener though will always be easily detectable unless it has been exhausted (since that is its purpose).

Many of us would be happy to vape in a room with our children as the street air is likely to be far more contaminated. It's about the same as ultra-low amounts of disco fog. Individuals may feel differently of course, especially if they are mega-vapor producers, as some are. Using the average mini ecig probably wouldn't even be detectable. However I don't know if even minuscule quantities of certain compounds could affect pets, I'd imagine that fish and birds would be most vulnerable if so.


[1] Check the photos: there are about twenty or so tests, all incomplete; and all that included pics showed the device being used inverted, in a manner in which it could not possibly work correctly. An ecig is a gravity-fed liquid-feed device like an electric kettle.

[2] This is actually the follow-on from tests as far back as the 1940s that clearly showed PG mist in hospital ward air killed airborne bacteria and viruses, reducing infections by 95% in some wards tested. It was not necessary to take this further, since it became used in the aircon plant, and performs the same function. As pathogens clearly spread into building air from the aircon cooling/filtration water, it is assumed that PG molecules do exactly the same, since they are demonstrated to adapt to air dispersal so very well.


Don't know if you wanted the long version or not :)
 
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sailorman

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Here's the test I used.

Lung filtration: One Red-Bellied Parrot. Most efficient respiratory system on earth. Extremely susceptible to airborne toxins. Accumulates toxins in blood and tissues more than any other animal.

Test method: Chain vape 7 day/week for 22 months within 8' of cage in normally ventilated living room

Analysis method: Send to vet and get very costly blood and tissue analysis with emphasis on nicotine and any known carcinogens.

Result: Nicotine, undetectable. Other heavy metals were present in trace amounts, but no components of e-juice. Other toxins, such as mercury and nickel resulting from normal suburban air pollution were present in trace amounts.

Conclusion: If a bird can be exposed to a heavy vaper for 2 years with no ill effects or elevated levels of toxins, kids and dogs should be just fine.

I respectfully disagree with Rolygate. Health New Zealand did analyses of the Runyan electronic cigarette with 16mg juice. I believe the doctors who performed these tests did, in fact, know what they were doing and how an e-cig works. The e-cig was put into a machine, held horizontally and filter pads were not reused, per their protocol.

http://www.healthnz.co.nz/News2012SOTposter1861.pdf

Ecigarette mist harmless, inhaled or exhaled

Here are the machines they used. They are decidedly not being used inverted.
http://www.bat-science.com/groupms/sites/BAT_7AWFH3.nsf/vwPagesWebLive/DO7AXGCZ?opendocument&SKN=1

These studies were done in 2009. The latest study yielded similar results and will be published within a few months.
 
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Cloud Wizard

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Thank you both. I would always rather be well informed than regretful. While the scientific and health communities are still not convinced (or at least noncommittal in taking a positive public stance) the empirical evidence from New Zealand does appear to substantiate the claims that any risk from second hand vapor falls between un-measuable and/or below any known levels for concern.

...smiling big as I expel plumes of "Malty Toffee" :toast:
 
My friend is a chemical engineer, graduated from UPenn, he said the nicotine amounts in surrounding air would be incredibly minimal. The other chemicals are not hazardous at all. There is absolutely no health concern as far as "second-hand vaping" goes. And if you want to know the truth, the evidence on second-hand smoking was ambiguous at best. Second-hand smoking was used primarily to inconvenience smokers and make it uncool, not because bartenders were dying in droves from lung cancer, that's a myth lol.
 
Some juices can cause an allergic reaction. My friends girlfriend is allergic to cinnamon, and even cinnamon based candles will trigger a reaction.

Well I vaped a cinnamon flavored juice in their living room (not knowing) and she had a reaction so I had to switch flavors. Nothing deadly but mostly instant congestion and eyes watering.
 

Darkstarncw

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The seconhand vape consists nicotine. enough nicotine. Especially at high conc liquids (18mg/ml and higher). I do not vape when people around. Using e-cig as analog is special placec only and outside the crowded areas.

It's fine that you feel that way, but your body is absorbing most of that nicotine. It isn't appropriate to just jump into a thread and claim your opinion as a fact.
 

markfm

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If the body is absorbing all, or most, of the nicotine, it should be getting metabolized. Estimates vary widely, but from multiple sources it sounds like somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 - 20% of the nicotine is being metabolized.

We would be hearing about a lot of bad nic problems if the nic really was being mostly absorbed. I was a PAD smoker, at about 1mg/cig absorbed nicotine, so used to nominally about 20 mg/day of nic being absorbed and metabolized. When I stopped smoking I used 3+ ml/day of 24 mg/ml eliquid, with some 30 and 36 mg/ml. If I was really absorbing > 72 mg/day, 3-1/2 times what was my norm with cigs, I'd have been hyper/headachy; that wasn't the case.

Some recent work by Etter checked cotinine levels (what nic metabolizes to) of experienced vapers. They showed levels comparable to, but not multiples of, active smokers, consistent with only a fraction of the nicotine in eliquids being absorbed.

The rest of the nicotine has to be going somewhere. That said, it is still a relatively small amount, and others inhaling it will have it greatly diluted by surrounding air, plus the fact that they, too, would only be absorbing a small fraction of what is inhaled.

Other than for some people being actively allergic to PG, or certain flavorings, which of course I respect, I put this way down on my list of things to worry about.
 
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hiatus

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I never smoked in my house (or car if anyone else was in with me) and I've seen various statements made about only exhaling "water vapor". I also never vape in front of my kids (they never saw me smoke either - just don't want them to ever thinking it's cool), but I do now vape in the house.

Logically I feel like there's no issue, but is there any concern about "second hand" vape? Is there any risk to pets? (my dog is my 4th son, he's the one in my avatar) it would devastate me if I caused harm.

(I keep all my gear locked away and always wash my hands to keep from transmitting juice...)


The only risk of second hand vaping around my place is when I catch somebody else using my rig. Then there's a problem.:evil:
 

sailorman

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I didn't think the harm was nicotine, I thought it was the thousands of other chemicals that were harmful in cigarettes.

You were right. If nicotine was the supposed danger of secondhand smoke, they'd be shouting it from the rooftops.

According to the Health NZ study, the 16mg juice contains 0.01mg per puff of inhaled vapor.
Let's just say they underestimated it by a factor of 100%, so it's 0.02mg per puff of inhaled vapor.
Let's say that a new vaper, who is least efficient, only abosorbs 40% of that so on exhale, there's 0.012mg in an exhaled puff.

If you, as a vaper, consume 3ml. of 16mg juice, you will have absorbed 19.2mg of nicotine at an efficiency rate of 40%.
In order to inhale 19.2mg of nicotine in your secondhand vapor, someone would have to lock lips with you while you exhaled 1,600 puffs.

If they too had a 40% efficiency rate, they'd have to inhale 4,000 puffs of what you exhale without losing any to dissipation, in order to absorb as much nicotine as you do in an average day vaping 3ml of 16mg juice.

So, 4000 puffs, IF the HNZ study was wrong by 100% AND you only absorb 40% of what you inhale AND there is a 100% transfer between you and the victim of your secondhand vapor.

If you were vaping in a school classroom, the exhaust from your car on the drive to school has hurt more kids than your vapor will.
 

zoiDman

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I never smoked in my house (or car if anyone else was in with me) and I've seen various statements made about only exhaling "water vapor". I also never vape in front of my kids (they never saw me smoke either - just don't want them to ever thinking it's cool), but I do now vape in the house.

Logically I feel like there's no issue, but is there any concern about "second hand" vape? Is there any risk to pets? (my dog is my 4th son, he's the one in my avatar) it would devastate me if I caused harm.

(I keep all my gear locked away and always wash my hands to keep from transmitting juice...)

Here’s the Problem when putting a Blanket Term like Safe or Un-Safe on e-Liquids or Second Hand Vape.

What is in the e-Liquid or Second Hand Vape?

Meaning. All e-Liquids are not made up of the Same Ingredients. And since Second Hand Vapor has a Constituent makeup of whatever the e-Liquid was made of, it can’t be deemed Safe or Unsafe in the Long Run until a Study is done on Each and Every e-Liquid. And that is not Very Feasable.

If a Short Term Study is done on an Unflavored e-liquid made up of Pharmacy Grade Nicotine Base and it is found to contains only Trace amounts of Hazardous Chemicals, does that make all e-Liquids Safe?

No, it Doesn’t. Does this mean that Any e-Liquid besides the Tested e-Liquid in Un-Safe? No, it doesn’t mean that either. Good Studies that are Repeatable and can be Independently Verified only make Claims about the Substance that was Studied.

So claims that a User’s e-Liquid and Second Vape are Safe really can’t be substantiated by means of a Study Unless the User is using the same e-Liquid that the Study tested. I may choose to vape e-Liquids that contains 10% Diacetyl or Acetyl pyrazine in concentrations above 100 ppm.

There is also the issue of Dosage.

Many of the Flavors Additives, Sweeteners and Colorants found in e-Liquids were not Developed to be Consumed Habitually. And perhaps None of them were meant to be Inhaled Directly. They were designed for Foods to be Orally Ingested and the Broken down in the Stomach.

Where as a Level of Safety may be Asserted to such Flavor Additives, Sweeteners and Colorants in Foods Consumed Occasionally, does this same Level of Safety apply to Habitual Inhalation? What are the Long Term Effects of Inhaling these Chemicals? This is Currently Unknown.

I think perhaps a Better way to think about all this is with regards to Risk.

Risk is not so much defined as a Black and White Issue such as Safe or Unsafe is. Risk can be thought of more as a Scale of Potential Hazard. A scale where an items Risk can be Bench Marked against Something Else.

To me that Bench Mark is Smoking Analogs. I know there is a High Risk in Potential Health Hazards Associated with Smoking Analogs. I don’t think that is Even Debatable. So I would Never make the Claim that All e-Liquids/e-Cigarettes are Safe, I do feel though that e-Cigarettes pose a Significantly Lower Risk than Smoking Analogs.

To me, It Isn’t so much about Safety, it’s about Minimizing Risk. I feel I am Significantly Reducing My Risk of Long Term Heath Problems by using an e-Cigarette verses Smoking Analogs.

Is there Any Risk to the People around You and Your Pets? That is Difficult to Quantify. I would say that the Risk is Very Low compared to the Risk of the Person actually using the e-Liquid/e-Cigarette. But once again, without Long Term Studies of the Chemicals contained in Your e-Liquids this is Not a Verifiable answer.
 
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