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Sinuous P80 USB Charging

Discussion in 'VV/VW APV Discussion' started by m1ke, Jul 29, 2019.

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  1. m1ke

    m1ke Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2013
    North East USA
    I just wanted to post this because I think it could be useful to certain people. I charged the cell in my P80 via the USB port and it starts charging at a lower amperage when the mod reads that the battery is 4.12v. I think that's decent functionality.

    The power supply used was 5V 1A (5 volt, 1 amp) and the mod is using ArcticFox firmware. The cell is a Samsung 30q.

    The P80 reported the board temperature was 106F while charging. The mod stays room temp while charging except for the area around the USB port, but that only gets slightly warm and I think that's where the board temperature sensor is. The wall adapter got warm, but I could hold it while it was being used.

    The P80 is capable of charging at 2A. I believe using a 2A supply would be fine, but would cause the mod to be warmer while charging. Also, it would stress your cell slightly more. I don't know how much more - probably very little.

    It depends on what battery you're using. For example, the Samsung 30q "standard" charging current is listed as 1.5A on the spec sheet. The "max current" is listed as 4A. I think 1A is a solid current to charge 18650s because it's not too fast (heat, decreased cell life) and it's not too slow (0.5A would take twice as long?).

    By the way, I choose to charge the cell in my mod because I don't wanna damage the wraps from the constant in out of mod and charger. If I was using a multi-cell mod, I'd use a dedicated charger.
     
  2. GOMuniEsq

    GOMuniEsq Self-Proclaimed Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Aug 25, 2012
    Alberta, Canada
    On the other hand, charging via constant current rather than external two-stage CC/CV could be shortening the life of your beloved cell. But at least it cuts off before 4.2V.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  3. Baditude

    Baditude ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Apr 8, 2012
    Ridgeway, Ohio
    Playing devil's advocate here... :evil:

    By the same token, you're placing unneccesary wear and tear on your USB input/outputs using them every day. Their primary purpose is for uploading firmware updates from your computer, and secondary purpose to do emergency charging of the battery when not near a Li-ion charger.

    By charging your batteries in an external charger, you can easily monitor battery temperature simply by touch. If they are too hot to touch for more than a few seconds, they are getting too hot.

    I've been charging 18650's for seven years in Li-ion chargers, and never torn any wraps from insertion or removal.

     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. bombastinator

    bombastinator ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 12, 2010
    MN USA
    If a mod has a port and will charge a battery it can generally be done. It becomes a question of how good the electronics are that manages it. There may or may not be an issue there depending on the given board.

    The issue for me with internal charging of removable batteries has always been port wear. MicroUSB2 was never designed to be a charging port despite its almost ubiquitous use as such and is not a robust design. If you regularly use mocroUSB2 as a charge port the port is going to wear out before the rest of the mod does.

    Looking at pics of the device on the internet you’ve got MicroUSB2.
    upload_2019-7-29_15-17-36.png
    This means while your mods board may handle charging OK the port that is on it may have problems in the long term.

    USBA and USBC are different animals though. They are a lot more robust.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. m1ke

    m1ke Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2013
    North East USA
    I agree with everything you guys said, but port wear is partly dependent on how rough a person is when plugging and unplugging. Also, some people use their mods while charging. I don't do that. I just leave it sit in a place where it won't get knocked over or anything like that.

    I still use a Galaxy Note 4 for my main phone. That port has been used for like 5 years now and it's still working without wiggling or anything like that. Hell, I still use a Note 2 regularly and the port charges without issues, but I get it, Samsung > Wismec.
     
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  6. Baditude

    Baditude ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Apr 8, 2012
    Ridgeway, Ohio
    So the same with battery wraps. :pervy:

    Just kidding. It comes down to a personal choice. Really, there's not a right or wrong way to charge your mod batteries.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. bombastinator

    bombastinator ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 12, 2010
    MN USA
    Yes and no. It can be made worse with rough handeling, sure, but even in perfect ideal circumstances it’s still a problem.

    Perhaps you are an unusual person who handles their electronics with kid gloves and gets more service out of devices than most people do. Good for you. It’s not good for anyone else though.
     
  8. Punk In Drublic

    Punk In Drublic Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Aug 28, 2018
    Toronto, ON
    Loved the Note 4, unfortunately mine somehow found its way into another persons pocket – it got stolen! Only phone I have ever lost.

    Still own a Note 2 and yes, it functions just fine for 7 year old phone! Little slow and dated, but the USB port is as good as new

    Excluding vape devices, I own a vast handful of USB 2 micro wireless peripherals. Some of which get plugged in several times a week and are at least a few years old. None display any worse for wear. Never have experienced unusable wear on a Micro USB port – and I am not dainty when plugging in the cable!

    Power delivery was always part of the Micro USB spec, how else is it to supply needed power to the peripheral? That is not to say the USB ports used in vape devices follow the proper tolerances. But who is to say your wireless mouse which is also made in China is following the same tolerances!

    The problem I see with charging mods via USB is we are dependent on the quality of the circuitry within the device to regulate the proper amperage and do so without generating unnecessary heat. There is also an issue with the quality of the power source. Computers have built in protection where over current draws will shut down the port(s) – same cannot be said from a USB wall wart!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. bombastinator

    bombastinator ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 12, 2010
    MN USA
    No one is saying that. It’s part of the whole problem to begin with.

    It was part of it in that it’s spec enables it to carry power. That is not the same thing as being a primary power delivery device. The whole use of microUSB2 as a sole charging source is something of a kludge. To make it worse the theoretical insertion number of microUSB2 (10,000 insertions) appears to not hold up in real life according to numerous tests. IIRC Linus tech tips tried it and got something like 7000 insertions with high quality equipment. Another Part of the problem is the spec is often not rigorously followed. especially by cable manufacturers. There is a complicated clip system in the spec that allows it to reach 10,000 insertions and it is frequently reduced to a couple of triangular protrusions or omitted all together. So even with high grade stuff the port wears faster than it should and much of the equipment does not meet spec to begin with. Both cables and ports.

    The problem was so bad with USBC was actually rushed out ahead of schedule because so many phone companies were complaining about it. MicroUSB3 was so bad it barely even got used.
    So there are two different arguments not to charge via microUSB2 power port then[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
     
  10. Punk In Drublic

    Punk In Drublic Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Aug 28, 2018
    Toronto, ON
    We’ve had this debate once before.

    You stated in your above post that “MicroUSB2 was never designed to be a charging port”. This is untrue. Power delivery was always part of the USB implementation. You NEED power to power the peripheral. Peripherals do not run on data alone; they require a power source!

    There is no chip within the spec that dictates the amount of insertions. This has to do with the tolerance of the port and or the cable – not any micro chip. Fully open to cheaply made USB ports that have poor tolerances, but that does not dictate the spec as a whole.

    Not going to comment on how many incretions a port is able to handle. Counting how many times I plug in a USB device is not part of my daily routine. Every port has tolerances, regardless of design. But 7000 incretions, according to Linus, is 19+ years if plugging in once a day. May be shy of the 10000 spec, but very acceptable. Highly doubt my wireless mouse will last 19 years.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Baditude

    Baditude ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Apr 8, 2012
    Ridgeway, Ohio
    Regardless, I personally feel the microUSB port used for charging is outdated. Something less fragile and more robust should be created for more durability.

    Just like when the 510 thread became the standard for vaping devices. It was and is a poor design to this day. Even the Ego connector is more robust than the 510. How many long-time vapers remember cartomizers breaking off at the 510 connector and then trying to figure out a way to remove it?

    Once a connection becomes "standard", manufacturers are not likely to change even if a major improvement is available.

    Provape made an attempt to make a better connector with the P3 connector between the atomizer and the mod, but it was a bit much to expect an entire industry follow their lead.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Kayfun 4 and Provari P3 connector
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  12. m1ke

    m1ke Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2013
    North East USA
    No, you're absolutely right about the wrap counterargument. I just don't even wanna pluck at the positive end of an 18650, which is kinda what I have to do to get it outta of my charger.

    I don't baby my devices. I just try to keep 'em in good shape. The physical USB ports on the Note 4 and Note 2 have visible wear, but they still function as they did when I first got 'em.

    Aw, man, that sucks. It was the last Note they made with a replaceable battery.

    Me either, I plug and unplug normally and sometimes worse.

    Good point..

    Right, well, I haven't tried using a 2A power supply to charge via the USB port because I already know it's gonna create a lot more heat (stress too?) on the mod's board.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. m1ke

    m1ke Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2013
    North East USA
    I gotta add this. I was wrong when I said the charging stopped at 4.12v. It seems to trickle charge once it gets to 4.12v. It's up to 4.15v now, but I know it's charging at less amperage because everything is cooler and it's taking much longer to build up the voltage.

    Also, while it's charging, the voltage reads 0.02V higher. So, when I unplug the mod from charging, it'll drop 0.02V. I don't know what that means. So, if it was 4.18V while charging, it'll read 4.16V when I unplug it.
     
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