Sunday, February 20th at 9:00pm est "An hour with The TVECA" http://www.blogtalkradio.com/vapersplace/2011/02/21/an-hour-with-the-tveca to listen to the show.
The TVECA on VP Live
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The show is tonight at 9:00pm est. Back to our regular time 
. An hour with The TVECA 2/20/2011 - kevbow | Internet Radio | Blog Talk Radio to listen to the show.
. An hour with The TVECA 2/20/2011 - kevbow | Internet Radio | Blog Talk Radio to listen to the show.
I'm looking forward to the show. I have a lot of questions/concerns about TVECA. Thanks for doing this show, Kevin.
Show starts at 9:00pm est An hour with The TVECA 2/20/2011 - kevbow | Internet Radio | Blog Talk Radio to listen to the show.
Just finished listening to the TVECA show.
Thanks to Kevbow for putting it on, and also thanks to David Goerlitz for getting involved. A spokesperson with a name is certainly needed and David fits the bill in every way - he knows the issues and the players intimately, and will be a very effective lobbyist. Some more work to do on the ecig situation perhaps, but the amount he knows already in a fairly short time is testament to his ability.
As regards the viability of TVECA as an industry trade association - that's another story (no pun intended ). As a lobbying / pressure group - fine. As a trade association it's a non-starter, due to a couple of major issues. I'll only address one of those here: the rules they intend to enforce on members regarding flavors, and the whole way they intend to 'go with the flow' instead of objecting to bad legislation in the first place.
Link to TVECA: Tobacco Vapor Electronic Cigarette Association
It looks as if David and the TVECA will be representing the 10% of the industry that are ready and willing to survive by selling cartomizers only, with no flavors. That's no liquid refills, no flavors, and most likely ultra-low nicotine strengths as well, if this is how the FDA plays it - and they will, if allowed. Maybe no Internet sales either... The other 90% of the industry - and 95% of the community of course - aren't interested in any kind of compromise of this type.
Sorry but that's the way it is - if you want to create an effective trade association, you open the doors to everyone who can maintain quality standards - not oppressive and false standards imposed on them by corrupt officials.
The TVECA will never represent more than 10% of the trade, so don't expect it to become a successful, universal industry group.
There is a role here for a strong trade association that represents all the trade, not a select few. Let's see who steps up to the plate and starts an association to represent 90% of the trade, not 10%.
Thanks to Kevbow for putting it on, and also thanks to David Goerlitz for getting involved. A spokesperson with a name is certainly needed and David fits the bill in every way - he knows the issues and the players intimately, and will be a very effective lobbyist. Some more work to do on the ecig situation perhaps, but the amount he knows already in a fairly short time is testament to his ability.
As regards the viability of TVECA as an industry trade association - that's another story (no pun intended
). As a lobbying / pressure group - fine. As a trade association it's a non-starter, due to a couple of major issues. I'll only address one of those here: the rules they intend to enforce on members regarding flavors, and the whole way they intend to 'go with the flow' instead of objecting to bad legislation in the first place.Link to TVECA: Tobacco Vapor Electronic Cigarette Association
It looks as if David and the TVECA will be representing the 10% of the industry that are ready and willing to survive by selling cartomizers only, with no flavors. That's no liquid refills, no flavors, and most likely ultra-low nicotine strengths as well, if this is how the FDA plays it - and they will, if allowed. Maybe no Internet sales either... The other 90% of the industry - and 95% of the community of course - aren't interested in any kind of compromise of this type.
Sorry but that's the way it is - if you want to create an effective trade association, you open the doors to everyone who can maintain quality standards - not oppressive and false standards imposed on them by corrupt officials.
The TVECA will never represent more than 10% of the trade, so don't expect it to become a successful, universal industry group.
There is a role here for a strong trade association that represents all the trade, not a select few. Let's see who steps up to the plate and starts an association to represent 90% of the trade, not 10%.
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I listened to it also and besides the impending doom David spells out, he did say that tveca was willing to listen to people and did seem to pay attention after the 3rd caller in a row stated they didn't want to give in with the flavors yet.
Seems like he's going on the agenda of the current board but maybe member votes/influence/knowledge can change the approach tveca takes.
It'd be a shame to not at least see if they are willing to set some goals that encompass the 90% rather than the 10%. It really doesn't seem that their agenda and goals are set in stone yet.
Kudos to the callers!! The knowledge and work done by them makes me feel like such a slacker. I'd love to see them have a vote on the board of tveca
I'd love to see more discussion about this and possible alternatives.
hoog
Seems like he's going on the agenda of the current board but maybe member votes/influence/knowledge can change the approach tveca takes.
It'd be a shame to not at least see if they are willing to set some goals that encompass the 90% rather than the 10%. It really doesn't seem that their agenda and goals are set in stone yet.
Kudos to the callers!! The knowledge and work done by them makes me feel like such a slacker. I'd love to see them have a vote on the board of tveca
I'd love to see more discussion about this and possible alternatives.
hoog
Yes, treece and julie were great -- and I hate the taste of tobacco now, they are ...... if they don't fight for that aspect and the nicotine levels. I am unimpressed with their positions..........
Rolygate makes some very good points. As for the show, I apologize. David's phone connection was pretty poor and it's hard to hear him. A wonderful member from the community, Robosax, is going to fix David's audio tonight. When he sends the show back I will replace it on the blogtalkradio show page. I will let everyone know when it's replaced. Thanks.
Well, we've seen this before so it's not a strange approach by any means: the carto-only vendors get together and push a restricted-product agenda. It works for them, because they target the first-time buyer, people buying their first replacement cartos, and internet-naive buyers. That market is so vast that selling only to that niche is highly successful. It's a good commercial approach as that market is so easy to service, and price is not a critical factor. Most buyers probably move on after that, or give up and return to smoking.
Unfortunately it only represents 1% of the product range available, so the rest of the trade, and virtually all of the community, are always going to have a problem with that.
As a pressure group, and funders of lobbying, TVECA will do well and add to the volume of protest we need. But as a trade association or any kind of long-term solution to the problems we face, they are a non-starter. They see regulations enforcing carto-only sales, no e-liquids, no flavors, low nicotine, and even no internet sales as an acceptable solution, or perhaps as a short or medium term solution. The rest of us would rather see a ban as at least then people won't be saying, "But you got what you wanted, e-cigarettes are permitted".
Many of us will go back to smoking under those conditions.
Unfortunately it only represents 1% of the product range available, so the rest of the trade, and virtually all of the community, are always going to have a problem with that.
As a pressure group, and funders of lobbying, TVECA will do well and add to the volume of protest we need. But as a trade association or any kind of long-term solution to the problems we face, they are a non-starter. They see regulations enforcing carto-only sales, no e-liquids, no flavors, low nicotine, and even no internet sales as an acceptable solution, or perhaps as a short or medium term solution. The rest of us would rather see a ban as at least then people won't be saying, "But you got what you wanted, e-cigarettes are permitted".
Many of us will go back to smoking under those conditions.
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Yes, treece and julie were great -- and I hate the taste of tobacco now, they are ...... if they don't fight for that aspect and the nicotine levels. I am unimpressed with their positions..........
I dislike the taste of tobacco smoke now, too...but unfortunately, I dislike the taste of tobacco-flavored e-cigs more. Tobacco "flavored" was never quite right and only INCREASED my craving the real thing. It's like having a craving for hot, gooey nachos and eating a nacho-flavored rice cake instead - doesn't quite cut it. My peach and mochaccino flavors are what made e-cigs work for me - I can enjoy them for what they are rather than trying to make them pretend to be something they aren't.
My only hope would be a loophole that "unflavored" will be allowed, which I can flavor myself.
My problem with this mentality is that it would eventually backfire. E-cigs have spread like wildfire because of the word-of-mouth of avid fans - most of whom have moved on from that type of device because they pretty much suck. Eliminate the upscale brands and flavors that we rave about and what will the word-of-mouth be? Eventually, there will be no raving fans and the market will slow down considerably, IMO. All there will be are complaints of fast-dying batteries, "burnt taste," failing atomizers and unsatisfying tobacco flavors that don't taste like the "real thing." People may try them once or not at all because of negative feedback.
Let's face it - this whole forum's success is because it is populated by thousands of e-cigarette users who were trying to find something better than the carto-only tobacco-flavored brands. How many of us would have bothered to keep using e-cigarettes or raved to other smokers about them without first finding something better?
Successful, long-term vapers love flavors and upscale devices and that is what fuels the first-time buyer market, who eventually turn to the boutique market, which in turn fuels more new users. Their business model would be screwed without the boutique market.
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As far as I'm concerned, David Goerlitz is a winner . . . but the TVECA as presently constituted is a disaster. As others have noted, the business model for the present 3 members (who are also the directors) relies on (1) lower nicotine levels (even though they say 36 mg, none of them carry it--for example, ENVY's "high" nic is 18 mg.), (2) no liquids (in fact, use of liquids voids the warranty for ENVY products), and (3) no flavors (only one member, ENVY, carries flavored cartomizers, but it already anticipates that flavors may become a problem, and "if the FDA requires the flavors to be discontinued, they will not be available from ENVY").
As a consumer, for me to support a trade organization, I'd need the board PACKED with members whose livelihood depended on flavors, liquids (including higher nicotine liquids), and online sales to individuals. And I'd also want an organization where the Board doesn't have 50% of the vote, with the members having the other 50%. Essentially, the members would have to vote unanimously opposed to defeat a Board's majority vote. To be very clear, that means that a simple majority of the Board (that is, if the Board were to consist of 3 members, 2 would constitute a majority vote) will decide the issue unless every single member votes against the majority Board decision . . . and even then, it would only effect a stalemate.
The 3 members of the TVECA do not reflect my interests as a consumer, nor do they represent the interests of the vast majority of vendors in the community. The call for people to get behind the TVECA is premature. The TVECA made a decision to start off with 3 members that reflect a particular business model . . . and unless they make some drastic changes, they're going to remain at 3 members.
And to be very clear, TVECA is just that--three vendors purporting to represent the industry. Without the backing of other vendors and consumers, they remain just that . . . 3 vendors.
I would encourage people to listen to the interview on archive. The first hour or so is David Goerlitz's story, which is fascinating. The second hour delves more into issues associated with the TVECA.
As a consumer, for me to support a trade organization, I'd need the board PACKED with members whose livelihood depended on flavors, liquids (including higher nicotine liquids), and online sales to individuals. And I'd also want an organization where the Board doesn't have 50% of the vote, with the members having the other 50%. Essentially, the members would have to vote unanimously opposed to defeat a Board's majority vote. To be very clear, that means that a simple majority of the Board (that is, if the Board were to consist of 3 members, 2 would constitute a majority vote) will decide the issue unless every single member votes against the majority Board decision . . . and even then, it would only effect a stalemate.
The 3 members of the TVECA do not reflect my interests as a consumer, nor do they represent the interests of the vast majority of vendors in the community. The call for people to get behind the TVECA is premature. The TVECA made a decision to start off with 3 members that reflect a particular business model . . . and unless they make some drastic changes, they're going to remain at 3 members.
And to be very clear, TVECA is just that--three vendors purporting to represent the industry. Without the backing of other vendors and consumers, they remain just that . . . 3 vendors.
I would encourage people to listen to the interview on archive. The first hour or so is David Goerlitz's story, which is fascinating. The second hour delves more into issues associated with the TVECA.
That's the best and most concise statement about the e-cigarette market and unintended consequences of extensive regulation I've read. You should save it for future use when regulation eventually does enter the picture.
Kristin,i thought that "unflavoured" wouldn't be a loophole as that is its natural taste,no flavouring what-so-ever?
e.g. take all the flavourings out of a chocolate flavoured cigarette,what are you left with? Take all the flavouring out of e-cigs/liquid.....
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@CKC
Yes, this is true - but unfortunately, in their view of things, all refill liquids will be banned. So 'unflavored' is out as well, unless you are happy with unflavored cartos you can inject some flavor into.
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Also I omitted to mention that the FDA will probably go after mods at some stage, because they allow owners to connect any end-user equipment desired (such as atties and carts, which will be banned).
Only standard 2-piece mini e-cigs will be permitted under this regime - along with tobacco and menthol cartos only, low nic, etc etc. So unless you are a KR8 fan, don't like any alt flavors, intend to reduce your nic level, and buy at a local mall, prepare to be disappointed. That would be about 99% of users. The 1% who are OK with it are first-time buyers in Month 1 of use.
It's just another way for the FDA to kill ecigs, and having some of the industry help them out doesn't play too well either.
Yes, this is true - but unfortunately, in their view of things, all refill liquids will be banned. So 'unflavored' is out as well, unless you are happy with unflavored cartos you can inject some flavor into.
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Also I omitted to mention that the FDA will probably go after mods at some stage, because they allow owners to connect any end-user equipment desired (such as atties and carts, which will be banned).
Only standard 2-piece mini e-cigs will be permitted under this regime - along with tobacco and menthol cartos only, low nic, etc etc. So unless you are a KR8 fan, don't like any alt flavors, intend to reduce your nic level, and buy at a local mall, prepare to be disappointed. That would be about 99% of users. The 1% who are OK with it are first-time buyers in Month 1 of use.
It's just another way for the FDA to kill ecigs, and having some of the industry help them out doesn't play too well either.
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