Tobacco bonds threatened by electronic cigarettes / Jul 2014

[sonicdsl]

Sure, and when people stop, they'll think of something else to make up for the loss in tax revenue. When does it end?...

It won't...at least not until MAYBE politicians (regardless of party IOW) learn to stop their frivolous spending*. The National Debt is an embarrassment and is ridiculous beyond expression, and should never have been allowed to get this out of hand. All parties have contributed to it over the years, and there is no excuse. We as consumers are expected to live within our means. The government should be no different, other than, perhaps, in times of true crisis. But that does not include a statue in honor of a Senator in his hometown, when we are $16 trillion in debt. No sir!

/rant

(*Note: my theory being that taxes wouldn't have to be so extraordinary if they spent within their means).

 

[RosaJ]

It won't...at least not until MAYBE politicians (regardless of party IOW) learn to stop their frivolous spending*. The National Debt is an embarrassment and is ridiculous beyond expression, and should never have been allowed to get this out of hand. All parties have contributed to it over the years, and there is no excuse. We as consumers are expected to live within our means. The government should be no different, other than, perhaps, in times of true crisis. But that does not include a statue in honor of a Senator in his hometown, when we are $16 trillion in debt. No sir!

/rant

(*Note: my theory being that taxes wouldn't have to be so extraordinary if they spent within their means).

I'm with you all the way, except the National Debt is $17 trillion now.

 

[Anjaffm]

It won't...at least not until MAYBE politicians (regardless of party IOW) learn to stop their frivolous spending*. The National Debt is an embarrassment and is ridiculous beyond expression, and should never have been allowed to get this out of hand. All parties have contributed to it over the years, and there is no excuse. We as consumers are expected to live within our means. The government should be no different, other than, perhaps, in times of true crisis. But that does not include a statue in honor of a Senator in his hometown, when we are $16 trillion in debt. No sir!

/rant

(*Note: my theory being that taxes wouldn't have to be so extraordinary if they spent within their means).

Absolutely.
And "mortaging the house" to finance current spending, in expectation of some completely unearned future windfall (e.g. MSA payments, or a big inheritance from aunt Betty) is not - repeat not - sound financial policy.

Well, (to stay with the story) aunt Betty decided to spend money on joining a health club, with the intention of taking care of her own health, instead of ensuring that the unearned future windfall to her heirs will be big and fat and juicy. Evil, evil aunt Betty, right? Gotta drag her right out of that health club, right?

 

[AgentAnia]

An updated, in-depth examination of the issues surrounding tobacco bonds: How Wall St Tobacco Deals Left States With Billions in Toxic Debt

What particularly interested me was connecting the dots between states involved in this fiasco and states currently involved in trying to regulate/tax ecigs.

 

[rothenbj]

An updated, in-depth examination of the issues surrounding tobacco bonds: How Wall St Tobacco Deals Left States With Billions in Toxic Debt

What particularly interested me was connecting the dots between states involved in this fiasco and states currently involved in trying to regulate/tax ecigs.

The addiction to smoking is greater at the government level than the smoker level.

 

[Kent C]

The addiction to smoking is greater at the government level than the smoker level.

That would be a great basis for an FDA comment

One could fit it into Zeller's 'greatest number' argument about dual use or people who intended to quit vs. the benefits for hard core smokers thing.... like the greater number of government employees and scientists getting gov't grants to create anti-nicotine studies who are dependent on cigarette taxes.

Anyway, it's a great line - thanks for thinking of it

 

[AgentAnia]

....Anyway, it's a great line - thanks for thinking of it

I agree! This is going in my Quotable Quotes file:

The addiction to smoking is greater at the government level than the smoker level.

 

[jpargana]

The federal and state governments have lost $6121.78 in excise(sin)taxes from just me alone in just a little over 3yrs. Think about it, I'm just one.

Among my friends, there is a family of EX-heavy smokers, mainly.

Some of them tried the 1st generation devices some years ago, and failed - some spare Janty-Dura kits I had at the time.

Some months ago, with the help of 2nd generation devices, they started vaping almost on the same time - some sort of avalanche effect, I guess...

Well, among that single family ONLY, there are around 14 (fourteen!!) packs of cigarettes that have stopped being bought. On a daily basis. And this has happened in only around two weeks.

Think about it: that's around 42 Euro in taxes alone that are no longer paid to our greedy Government. Every single day. And we're talking about a SINGLE family.

There must be countless other families making the switch. I see a lot of new B&M stores opening in Lisbon. Two of them are even facing across the street - number 44A and 45D !!


I guess our greedy Governments never dreamed that some day, one of their biggest nightmares would eventually strike - when smokers were actually sucessful at quitting smoking...!

 

[Kent C]

Among my friends, there is a family of EX-heavy smokers, mainly.

Some of them tried the 1st generation devices some years ago, and failed - some spare Janty-Dura kits I had at the time.

Some months ago, with the help of 2nd generation devices, they started vaping almost on the same time - some sort of avalanche effect, I guess...

Well, among that single family ONLY, there are around 14 (fourteen!!) packs of cigarettes that have stopped being bought. On a daily basis. And this has happened in only around two weeks.

Think about it: that's around 42 Euro in taxes alone that are no longer paid to our greedy Government. Every single day. And we're talking about a SINGLE family.

There must be countless other families making the switch. I see a lot of new B&M stores opening in Lisbon. Two of them are even facing across the street - number 44A and 45D !!


I guess our greedy Governments never dreamed that some day, one of their biggest nightmares would eventually strike - when smokers were actually sucessful at quitting smoking...!

Similar story here - second generation - eGos with 4th? generation clearos - Kanger's - is what turned the tide for many family/friends of mine - two in the last week and several within the last year - most of whom came to me, because they knew I'd been vaping for years. They were also heavy smokers and some of whom had tried and failed at NRT's with a few horror stories on Chantix. Cigarette sales in this area have dropped considerably

 

[ClippinWings]

Think about it: that's around 42 Euro in taxes alone that are no longer paid to our greedy Government. Every single day. And we're talking about a SINGLE family.

I've done this math before... it makes things REAL clear:

I've been vaping since 12/26/2011

That's
961 packs
$970 in federal taxes
$836 in state taxes

$1876, I've personally cost the government in lost tax revenue...

There are an estimated 6 million vapers in the US(last i read)

$11,256,000,000

That's Billion... with a B

even calculating annually, we're still talking $4,278,000,000... ANNUALLY.

...and that number only rises as more people start vaping.

 

[granolaboy]

Love your posts, Anjaffm.

You always hit the nail right on the head...

 

[Anjaffm]

An updated, in-depth examination of the issues surrounding tobacco bonds: How Wall St Tobacco Deals Left States With Billions in Toxic Debt

What particularly interested me was connecting the dots between states involved in this fiasco and states currently involved in trying to regulate/tax ecigs.

great link, dear! thank you for posting it!

In November 1998, attorneys general from across the country sealed a historic deal with the tobacco industry to pay for the health care costs of smoking. Going forward, nearly every cigarette sold would provide money to the states, territories and other governments involved 2014 more than $200 billion in just the first 25 years of a legal settlement that required payments to be made in perpetuity.

Say, am I confusing something, or was it over 20 attorneys general who wrote to the FDA with the urgent request to ban all e-cig flavors?
To make e-cigs less attractive to smokers - so that people continue to smoke, MSA payments remain high, and the states can continue to reap this entirely unearned windfall? Which they have already spent? On things completely unrelated to health, of course?

Yeah.. "health" concerns indeed.....

And I find it amusing that the taxpayer will have to pick up the tab. Remember that approx 80% of the population are non-smokers
Yeah, tax cigarettes out the wazoo - while deriding the smokers who pay all that money into state coffers. Benefit from (the expectation of) MSA payments spent by the states - while deriding the smokers who pay for the cigarettes in the first place, thus providing that self-same MSA money. - And now.... those same holier-than-thou non-smokers have to pick up the tab, as more and more of those oh-so-horrible smokers stop consuming cigarettes.

Love your posts, Anjaffm.

You always hit the nail right on the head...

thank you, dear

 

[dragonpuff]

There are an estimated 6 million vapers in the US(last i read)

Question: Where did you get that estimate from? Last I heard the count was only 1 million...

 

[Kent C]

Question: Where did you get that estimate from? Last I heard the count was only 1 million...

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...e-before-wednesday-2-30pm-3.html#post13453065

#30 roly

Then there's this:
http://www.statisticbrain.com/electronic-cigarette-statistics/

 

[ClippinWings]

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...e-before-wednesday-2-30pm-3.html#post13453065

#30 roly

Then there's this:
http://www.statisticbrain.com/electronic-cigarette-statistics/

Actually I read it in a media piece in the last 48 hours... But I've just read to many to know which one.

I have to agree with Roly though...

No way its less than 6. I now see at least 5 or 6 vapers for every 1 smoker on a daily basis. I know that its not as prevalent everywhere and that so cal is like the vaping capital of the US, but still... It has just grown SO fast.

 

[Rickajho]

I've done this math before... it makes things REAL clear:

I've been vaping since 12/26/2011

That's
961 packs
$970 in federal taxes
$836 in state taxes

$1876, I've personally cost the government in lost tax revenue...

There are an estimated 6 million vapers in the US(last i read)

$11,256,000,000

That's Billion... with a B

even calculating annually, we're still talking $4,278,000,000... ANNUALLY.

...and that number only rises as more people start vaping.

Has anyone looked here lately? => We Vape - Global Money Saved/Cigarettes Avoided Calculator

Taking into account the vagaries of costs per pack, individual smoking habits, and quit dates look at the impact less than 3,000 people who have quit smoking have on a gross dollar figure not spent on cigarettes and the tax revenue stream.

Further, that number is conservative, based on what cigarettes cost at the time of the individual entry. I sure as hell can't gets butts any longer at the $4.20 a pack I entered that I was paying when I quit smoking.

The ECF thread about this calculator is located here. => http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...alculator-here-please-add-your-data-list.html

 

[dragonpuff]

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...e-before-wednesday-2-30pm-3.html#post13453065

#30 roly

Then there's this:
Electronic Cigarette Statistics | Statistic Brain

Actually I read it in a media piece in the last 48 hours... But I've just read to many to know which one.

I have to agree with Roly though...

No way its less than 6. I now see at least 5 or 6 vapers for every 1 smoker on a daily basis. I know that its not as prevalent everywhere and that so cal is like the vaping capital of the US, but still... It has just grown SO fast.

Thank you both

I'd have to lean more toward Kent's second post claiming 2.5 million. Rolygate's estimate is partly based on the known number of vapers in the U.K. and extrapolated to take into account the U.S. population. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the U.K. has policies in place that endorse using e-cigs instead of smoking as a form of harm reduction. The U.S., on the other hand, has no such policies in place but instead has a government intent on eliminating them and a media that will not stop demonizing them. Less smokers will take up vaping in that kind of environment, unfortunately.

ClippinWings, I do think that is a product of where you live. In my town, for every vaper I see there are 20 or 30 smokers easily. We even have a really good vapor shop in town, but people around here are just too skeptical and resistant to change. My brother in law said to me once, "they don't know what's in those things," and another time he said, "just wait, someday they'll find something wrong with those too." His attitudes exemplify the sentiments of most of the people here. (And if you think he'll listen to me, ha! You're dreaming.) Honestly I'm surprised the vapor shop does as well as they do here...

 

[ClippinWings]

Thank you both
ClippinWings, I do think that is a product of where you live. In my town, for every vaper I see there are 20 or 30 smokers easily. We even have a really good vapor shop in town, but people around here are just too skeptical and resistant to change. My brother in law said to me once, "they don't know what's in those things," and another time he said, "just wait, someday they'll find something wrong with those too." His attitudes exemplify the sentiments of most of the people here. (And if you think he'll listen to me, ha! You're dreaming.) Honestly I'm surprised the vapor shop does as well as they do here...

Sad.

the vapor shop...

there are 3 vape shops within 3 blocks of where I am sitting at the moment.

plus 2 more along my 5 mile drive home.

The shop I prefer is 7 miles from my home... I pass 2 others to get there.

There are 10 shops within 10 miles of my home.

 

[ClippinWings]

FOUND IT!!!

6 Million Vapers
Majority of adults trying to quit smoking use e-cigarettes: study | Vape Monitor

 

[dragonpuff]

there are 3 vape shops within 3 blocks of where I am sitting at the moment.

plus 2 more along my 5 mile drive home.

The shop I prefer is 7 miles from my home... I pass 2 others to get there.

There are 10 shops within 10 miles of my home.

You need to take into account population density here. You list your location as "The OC," so I take it you live in an urban or suburban environment, correct?

I only list Buffalo because it is my nearest city, but it is actually a good drive from the town I live in (I'm thinking of changing that as I see it leads to confusion). I live in a rural area where cows outnumber people (the cows don't vape either, in case you were wondering). We actually have 2 vapor shops, but only one "good" one (the other is a bit shady), but it's more than enough to get everyone here started - there aren't quite as many people in my town as you're imagining.

FOUND IT!!!

6 Million Vapers
Majority of adults trying to quit smoking use e-cigarettes: study | Vape Monitor

Ah, I missed that stat the first time I read it. I stand corrected