Top Half Impedance Question

Status
Not open for further replies.

BentWookie

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Feb 14, 2013
418
343
SF Bay Area CA USA
Hello All,

Initially I thought that various impedance top halves were available to accommodate various vaping styles before the days of the VV and VW devices. I thought impedance became a moot point after the advent of VV and VW as you could still attain the same end result of X watts and watts is the number that really mattered.

Now I've read a lot of posts that imply that there are actually benefits from using a 3ohm top half w/ a high voltage device. Problem is I can't find any posts stating exactly what kind of benefits this may offer.

I'd appreciate if someone could shed some light on this.

~BW
 

SoberSnyper

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 4, 2012
229
274
59
Maurice, La.
Hello All,

Initially I thought that various impedance top halves were available to accommodate various vaping styles before the days of the VV and VW devices. I thought impedance became a moot point after the advent of VV and VW as you could still attain the same end result of X watts and watts is the number that really mattered.

Now I've read a lot of posts that imply that there are actually benefits from using a 3ohm top half w/ a high voltage device. Problem is I can't find any posts stating exactly what kind of benefits this may offer.

I'd appreciate if someone could shed some light on this.

~BW

I'm trying to follow your post, please clarify for me, by top halves are you referring to the atty(atomizer, cartomizer, ect)? and with impedance or you referring to resistance? With E-cigs, we are dealing with a DC circuit, impedance is usually a measure in AC circuits, not DC circuits. In DC circuits impedance is the same as resistance.
 
Last edited:

BentWookie

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Feb 14, 2013
418
343
SF Bay Area CA USA
I'm trying to follow your post, please clarify for me, by top halves are you referring to the atty(atomizer, cartomizer, ect)? and with impedance or you referring to resistance? With E-cigs, we are dealing with a DC circuit, impedance is usually a measure in AC circuits, not DC circuits. In DC circuits impedance is the same as resistance.

Sorry for the confusion. When I say impedance I am indeed referring to atty, carto, etc. I am accustomed to using the term impedance when dealing with ohms, from back in my car audio days when we used to mount our speakers and amplifiers to our dinosaurs. We used impedance when referring to the resistance of voice coils in the measurement of ohms.

To shorten my question, how does one choose the ohms of their atty or carto, given that you will be using it with a VV or VW device?
 

SoberSnyper

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 4, 2012
229
274
59
Maurice, La.
Sorry for the confusion. When I say impedance I am indeed referring to atty, carto, etc. I am accustomed to using the term impedance when dealing with ohms, from back in my car audio days when we used to mount our speakers and amplifiers to our dinosaurs. We used impedance when referring to the resistance of voice coils in the measurement of ohms.

To shorten my question, how does one choose the ohms of their atty or carto, given that you will be using it with a VV or VW device?
With a fixed voltage device, you are correct, people would use lower ohm atties so they could attain more power. With a VV device, it doesn't matter what the ohms are, I can adjust my voltage to get the power I desire. With a VW device, I just set the device to the power i want to vape at, and I can put whatever atty I want, and the VW device will automatically adjust the voltage based upon my power setting and the resistance of the atty. Basically, with VV or VW, you have a wider variety of atties you can use.
 

BentWookie

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Feb 14, 2013
418
343
SF Bay Area CA USA
With a fixed voltage device, you are correct, people would use lower ohm atties so they could attain more power. With a VV device, it doesn't matter what the ohms are, I can adjust my voltage to get the power I desire. With a VW device, I just set the device to the power i want to vape at, and I can put whatever atty I want, and the VW device will automatically adjust the voltage based upon my power setting and the resistance of the atty. Basically, with VV or VW, you have a wider variety of atties you can use.

Thanks for the reply!

I've read some posts that imply that using a higher resistance atty with certain devices are actually more power efficient at the same wattage as a lower resistance device due to how the regulator handles the combo of volts and resistance. Do you know if there's any truth to that?
 

Crash Moses

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Nov 30, 2012
1,468
3,889
56
Lansing, Michigan
With a fixed voltage device, you are correct, people would use lower ohm atties so they could attain more power. With a VV device, it doesn't matter what the ohms are, I can adjust my voltage to get the power I desire. With a VW device, I just set the device to the power i want to vape at, and I can put whatever atty I want, and the VW device will automatically adjust the voltage based upon my power setting and the resistance of the atty. Basically, with VV or VW, you have a wider variety of atties you can use.

Yes, but I think the question is why would you want to? I believe what the OP is asking is what is the advantage of using a 3 ohm device at six volts as opposed to a 2 ohm device at four volts?
 

SoberSnyper

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 4, 2012
229
274
59
Maurice, La.
Yes, but I think the question is why would you want to? I believe what the OP is asking is what is the advantage of using a 3 ohm device at six volts as opposed to a 2 ohm device at four volts?

Because with a fixed voltage device, the voltage goes down as the battery charge goes down and as the voltage goes down, the power goes down. With VV or VW, the power or voltage stays constant as the battery depletes.
 

SoberSnyper

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 4, 2012
229
274
59
Maurice, La.
Thanks for the reply!

I've read some posts that imply that using a higher resistance atty with certain devices are actually more power efficient at the same wattage as a lower resistance device due to how the regulator handles the combo of volts and resistance. Do you know if there's any truth to that?

If you are using an ego or ego clone that is a 3.7V device with a low res atty say 1.6 ohm. Power(Amps)=Voltage(V)squared divided by Resistance(ohms) So 3.7 X 3.7 divided by 1.6 ohms = 8.56 watts(Power) So you are starting off with a good vape. As the voltage of the battery gets below 3.7 volts your power will go down. Full battery is 4.2 volts and the regulator in the ego will maintain the voltage at 3.7V until the battery gets below 3.7V.
If you have a good PWM VV or VW device, it will maintain the power or voltage throughout the life of the battery.
 

fourthrok

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Aug 12, 2012
3,192
7,709
Watertown, NY
The reason I like to use 2.5 or 3 ohm atomizers/cartomizers on my VV devices is that of the VV APVs I actually use now...they all have pulse width modulation. In some cases (at least with the somewhat lower end priced VVs) the PWM causes a "boost" that can translate to "hotter" at certain voltages. Some find that, even though their VV device with PWM is actually correct on it's settings, it's best to set the voltage between .5 and 1 volts lower than ordinarily would be optimum on other devices without the PWM.

What that translated to, for me, was I had to readjust my thinking. I'd been using 2ohm cartomizers (EMSCCs and cartotanks) exclusively for months with my mechanicals and regulated PVs. That was perfect for me with them...I could get about 5.5 to 6 watts and be right where I liked it. When I got my first PWM VV Gripper...the game changed. With a 2ohm if I ventured above 3.2 volts with it...my juice started tasting burned or at least harsh. I was forced to stay at 3 to 3.2 volts....yet there I was with a VV device that offered a range from 3v all the way up to 6v...and I couldn't use anything but the bottom couple of settings! When I got the 3ohm Boges however, suddenly my range vastly increased. I was able to set the VVG and later the Ovale V8s to anywhere from 3.7 up to 4.2 and still have a good tasting not-too-harsh-or-hot vape. The higher ohms allowed me more freedom to fine tune to get my "sweet spot".

That's my story and I'm sticking to it! muahahahaha!
 

Rader2146

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 11, 2012
1,197
1,033
Waco, TX
Thanks for the reply!

I've read some posts that imply that using a higher resistance atty with certain devices are actually more power efficient at the same wattage as a lower resistance device due to how the regulator handles the combo of volts and resistance. Do you know if there's any truth to that?

That would be completely dependent on the device. Each type will be different depending on the method and hardware used to manipulate the power. But in general, it doesn't matter too much for practical use. Battery charge life will be relatively equal regardless of Low or high resistance.
 

SoberSnyper

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 4, 2012
229
274
59
Maurice, La.
The reason I like to use 2.5 or 3 ohm atomizers/cartomizers on my VV devices is that of the VV APVs I actually use now...they all have pulse width modulation. In some cases (at least with the somewhat lower end priced VVs) the PWM causes a "boost" that can translate to "hotter" at certain voltages. Some find that, even though their VV device with PWM is actually correct on it's settings, it's best to set the voltage between .5 and 1 volts lower than ordinarily would be optimum on other devices without the PWM.

What that translated to, for me, was I had to readjust my thinking. I'd been using 2ohm cartomizers (EMSCCs and cartotanks) exclusively for months with my mechanicals and regulated PVs. That was perfect for me with them...I could get about 5.5 to 6 watts and be right where I liked it. When I got my first PWM VV Gripper...the game changed. With a 2ohm if I ventured above 3.2 volts with it...my juice started tasting burned or at least harsh. I was forced to stay at 3 to 3.2 volts....yet there I was with a VV device that offered a range from 3v all the way up to 6v...and I couldn't use anything but the bottom couple of settings! When I got the 3ohm Boges however, suddenly my range vastly increased. I was able to set the VVG and later the Ovale V8s to anywhere from 3.7 up to 4.2 and still have a good tasting not-too-harsh-or-hot vape. The higher ohms allowed me more freedom to fine tune to get my "sweet spot".

That's my story and I'm sticking to it! muahahahaha!

This is because the early VV PWM(pulse width modulation) APV's were set to Vavg and not Vrms. To get the true output voltage on a PWM device you must use Vrms.
 

LucentShadow

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Dec 28, 2011
936
2,436
Michigan, USA
... To shorten my question, how does one choose the ohms of their atty or carto, given that you will be using it with a VV or VW device?

I'd choose whatever is easy to get at a good price, and allows me some up and down variation from my usual wattage.

... Now I've read a lot of posts that imply that there are actually benefits from using a 3ohm top half w/ a high voltage device. Problem is I can't find any posts stating exactly what kind of benefits this may offer. ...

There was a similar question a while ago that I weighed in on:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...igh-voltage-high-res-vs-low-volt-low-res.html

From what I know, there should be no appreciable difference. There may be some atomizer physical construction factors that have some effect, or the efficiency of your VV unit may vary a bit at different voltages.
 

UncleChuck

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 20, 2011
1,581
1,812
37
Portland
This is because the early VV PWM(pulse width modulation) APV's were set to Vavg and not Vrms. To get the true output voltage on a PWM device you must use Vrms.

Which is odd, I've heard that analog multimeters are good at reading PWM because they even out the voltage to give you a steady reading.

In RMS mode a Zmax and Vamo, for instance, will put out a whole volt lower than the set reading. In AVG mode it puts out exactly what it's set at.

Now, either the information I heard (Analog meters reading PWM) was wrong, or it's simply an issue of the (relatively) long full voltage spikes of low frequency regulation causing a hotter vape than the readings would suggest. Many people including me can detect a difference between flat-output signal devices and the choppy signal of the 33hz chip used in most VW china mods. The coil is unable to "average out" the voltage, which causes high temp spikes in the coil, and a vape that is hotter than it should be. This is why you hear the rattlesnake sound, you can actually hear the coil turning off, and turning on very quickly. If it's enough of a difference to hear, it's definitely enough of an issue to cause large temperature variation.

Trying to get accurate output readings isn't as important as getting accurate heat and the coil. If you are using straight 4.2v straight from a battery, and measure the temperature of the coil, it should match to what the temperature of the coil reads with a 4.2v setting on a VV device, taking into account voltage sag of course. While I'm unable to test actual coil temps, from personal experience, and the words of others with the exact same person experience, I'm convinced the low frequency regulation causes a less desirable vape, the extent of which depends on what specific heads you are using.

Anyway, for the OP's question:

When talking cartos and the like, usually higher resistance ones have a longer coil, meaning more surface area. LR stuff usually has fewer wraps of the coil, which gives you less surface area.

It's very possible to build two coils that are the exact same resistance, and one is twice the surface are of the other. Thicker wire reduces resistance, longer wire increases it. So if you made a very long, but very thick coil it could match the resistance of a shorter coil with less surface area.

But generally manufacturers use a longer coil with higher resistance stuff. With a longer coil, meaning more surface area, you can pump more power into the coil without it becoming too hot.

if you have 1sq in. of surface area and put 10 watts into it, and have 3sq in of surface area and put 10 watts into it too, the 1sq in. surface area coil will get hotter than the other one, but it will also have less surface area, so less potential for vapor production.

If you have a device capable of putting out a lot of power, higher resistance stuff will (generally) put out more vapor at the same high-power setting compared to LR stuff. But if all you are using is eGos or cigalikes, or fixed voltage mods, you aren't providing enough voltage to take advantage of that increased surface area, so performance suffers.

It totally depends on the coil design, but generally this holds true.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread