Traditional Tobacco Vendors Appear Unaffected by New Record Keeping for Vape Supplies

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Beeker

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My understanding of UPS and FEDEX decision not to carry Nicotine supplies to 'the Public' is their 'reluctance' to be burdened with record keeping requirements of signatures of Adults receiving Nicotine products under the new law. USPS decision is easy to understand as they are a 'Pseudo Government Agency'.

Just an 'observation'. Gas Stations, Convenience stores, tobacconists, and other vendors of actual tobacco products are NOT being 'burdened' with the same record keeping requirements at point of sale...and this appears to be a gap in the legislation violating the 'Equal Protection' philosophy the US has seemed to distance itself of late when making laws to 'save us from ourselves'...

I understand Business to Business shipments remain unaffected...its only business to end-users being burdened by this BS regulation.

Am I wrong in my observation?
 
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Beeker

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While I agree these decisions are 'all politics', it's a bit more than that I'm afraid since it IS affecting only Vaper's lives and not the lives of 'tobacco Users'...not to mention the destruction of the Vape Industry...except of course that portion of it in the hands of 'Big Tobacco'.

I suppose it'll be a few years before we again see 'studies' pointing to a rise among 'teen smokers' once again keeping the coffers of Big Tobacco and Big Government full.
 

UncLeJunkLe

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My understanding of UPS and FEDEX decision not to carry Nicotine supplies to 'the Public' is their 'reluctance' to be burdened with record keeping requirements of signatures of Adults receiving Nicotine products under the new law. USPS decision is easy to understand as they are a 'Pseudo Government Agency'.

Just an 'observation'. Gas Stations, Convenience stores, tobacconists, and other vendors of actual tobacco products are NOT being 'burdened' with the same record keeping requirements at point of sale


Not sure myself.

But you're comparing offline cigarette sales to shipping companies having to keep records of tobacco product deliveries to consumers. That's not the same because a cigarette vendor isn't delivering anything to a consumer's home and can easily see if the person purchasing the product is of legal age (or must ask for proof).

So apples to apples:

Are FedEx et al are required to keep records of deliveries to a residence only for vape but not for cigarettes or other traditional tobacco products?

Also are brick and mortar vape shops now required to keep records of sales where cigarette sellers are not?

If so, can you please provide a link so I can read more about this unfair/unequal requirement imposed on vape, which is supposed to also be a "tobacco product" just like cigarettes?
 

Beeker

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Let me rephrase my Observation to move AWAY from 'Tobacco Related Products" to illustrate my point better.

There are a number of products one can order 'online' that are limited to persons over 18/21 Years of Age depending upon Jurisdiction that don't require 'flaming hoop jumps'.

(EXAMPLE: Mail Order Pharmacies) - Online orders placed after the routine verification of Patient ID and Physician Prescriptions for Certain non-Narcotic Medications). USPS/FEDEX/UPS Delivers and either requires a simple signature confirming delivery or just drops in mailbox. No big deal. I get medications via this method often.

Suddenly 'Tobacco Related Products' are the 'exception'...simply to avoid sales to minors...even after the vendor confirms customers age and ships the package. I don't see the difference except 'Tobacco Related Products' seems to have a Political/Social Stigma attached.

Both 'Products' have laws that limit certain sales to 'Adults'...yet one has no legal exception in method of delivery but the other does.
 

zoiDman

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...

Just an 'observation'. Gas Stations, Convenience stores, tobacconists, and other vendors of actual tobacco products are NOT being 'burdened' with the same record keeping requirements at point of sale...and this appears to be a gap in the legislation violating the 'Equal Protection' philosophy the US has seemed to distance itself of late when making laws to 'save us from ourselves'...

.
.
.

Am I wrong in my observation?

Everyone shares the Same Burden. So it Isn't like "Actual Tobacco Products" are getting a Better Deal.

What is Different is that Gas Stations and C-Stores and (etc) have there Own, Established, Dedicated Distribution Networks to get Tobacco Products from Point A to Point B.

Whereas the "Vape" Industry Doesn't. And is Reliant on "Common Carriers" like UPS or FedEx or the USPS to ship/receive products.

And that is Why We are so :censored:.
 

Kilroy

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While I agree these decisions are 'all politics', it's a bit more than that I'm afraid since it IS affecting only Vaper's lives and not the lives of 'Tobacco Users'...not to mention the destruction of the Vape Industry...except of course that portion of it in the hands of 'Big Tobacco'.

I suppose it'll be a few years before we again see 'studies' pointing to a rise among 'teen smokers' once again keeping the coffers of Big Tobacco and Big Government full.
I am afraid that you are right. Those in power don't care that you or I no longer smoke tobacco and that doing so is better for our health. They care about who lines their pockets
 

Beeker

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Everyone shares the Same Burden. So it Isn't like "Actual Tobacco Products" are getting a Better Deal.

What is Different is that Gas Stations and C-Stores and (etc) have there Own, Established, Dedicated Distribution Networks to get Tobacco Products from Point A to Point B.

Whereas the "Vape" Industry Doesn't. And is Reliant on "Common Carriers" like UPS or FedEx or the USPS to ship/receive products.

And that is Why We are so :censored:.
Yea B to B...I get that.

FEDEX/UPS is also a delivery method...but they are not the 'vendor' or 'point of sale'.

They DELIVER many items that are restricted for sale to minors but aren't being legally subjected to the same record keeping requirements for THOSE products upon delivery to the end user.
 

zoiDman

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Yea B to B...I get that.

FEDEX/UPS is also a delivery method...but they are not the 'vendor' or 'point of sale'.

They DELIVER many items that are restricted for sale to minors but aren't being legally subjected to the same record keeping requirements for THOSE products upon delivery to the end user.

Not Defending FedEx or UPS.

But, Like it or Not, these are Companies that are Free to do as they Choose. And if they Don't think it is worth the Hassle to ship e-Cigarettes/e-Liquid(s), there Isn't much that can be done about It.

And this is Why the Tobacco Market Doesn't Rely on them.
 

UncLeJunkLe

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Something has to happen here (legally speaking) because you're right, it makes no logical sense or even legal sense that vape would be singled out as an adult product that is somehow worse than others. When I was in HS, people brought flasks of liquor in and drank them in school, on the way to school.

But I do have doubts that anything will happen because IMHO they really are hellbent on eliminating nicotine vaping altogether. This whole PMTA thing is just a farce IMHO. Vaping will be so hard to get that it will essentially be banned without actually being banned.

Time will tell.
 
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UncLeJunkLe

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So I just read this from Mountain Oak Vapors. Note the reporting requirements they mention. I have no idea if this is normal for other adult consumables, though.

Also, notice that they are closing their online business because of all the required reporting and the lack of common carriers, but not closing their B&M stores. Apparently no new reporting is being required for B&M operations. They must feel confident they can get their inventory shipped to them at a reasonable enough rate?

=================
It is with great sadness that we are being forced to shutter our online business.

Under "the cover of darkness" (Christmas time/end of year government budget omnibus bill) the United States Congress amended the 2009 PACT and JENKINS ACT's to include Electronic Cigarettes.

They did this deep inside the 5000+ page "COVID RELIEF BILL" that was passed.

It's often common practice for our government to legislate in this way - in one huge, all-or-nothing "budget bill" at the end of the year that contains thousands of extras and "riders". These greatly impact various industries, including ours.

This most recent amendment makes it a felony to ship any vape items to consumers.

USPS, Fed-Ex and UPS have announced that they are cancelling our internet shipping accounts at the end of March/April.

At the moment, there is NO viable solution to continue "Business to Consumer" mail/phone/internet orders.

A few of the onerous requirements to stay in business include:
  • Having a registered agent within each destination state
  • Monthly reporting to each State Attorney General
  • Monthly Reporting to the ATF
  • Monthly Reporting to Local County Sheriff's Department, if Required for County-Specific rules (Flavor bans, county-specific taxes, etc.)
  • Associated state/local Taxes collected & Remitted
  • Cannot use the United States Postal Service
  • Fed-Ex/UPS have both opted out
  • Adult Signature required upon delivery IF private courier can be found.
At this time, we feel like we will only be able to operate the website for about another month or so, given that the USPS is still "publishing the final rule", and there is no private courier willing to handle national distribution of individual consumer packages.

As it stands, the murmured effective date of the law is April 6, 2021.

We started this business to do one thing – to help folks quit smoking. Since opening, we have helped over 30,000 people get off & stay off of cigarettes with this miraculous harm-reduction technology.

Unfortunately, our government benefits more when people are smoking.

Tobacco is the most taxed product category in the world, and electronic cigarettes have posed a tremendous threat to those tax revenues on which state, local and federal government have become dependent.

As many of you are aware, we have taken a stand on many occasions - fighting for vapor rights both locally & nationally.

The reality is simple, however. We simply do not have the capacity to comply with these latest mandated regulatory actions.

Thank you all so much for your patronage over the years. It has been our absolute pleasure and privilege to serve you.

As a measure of gratitude, we have deeply discounted pricing throughout March to help our customers stock up.

Our final shipping date will be March 25th.
 
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